Prototype location ideas using 4 CEP...(now Paddock Wood)

[DavidLong]

Pete,

 

For a look at the track layout at Paddock Wood try here:

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html

Enter the eastings/northings 567113 and 145306 which are the co-ordinates for Paddock Wood station. There will be a list of OS maps from 1872 to 1991 at 1:10560 and 1:2500. It's the 1:2500 that you need to look at - the most recent is 1969-1977 so some of the sidings may have disappeared by the 1980s.

Sounds an intersting little exercise. I knew you'd find a use for that 4CEP! Wonder if Bachmann will have released the N version of the 2EPB by 2014. . .

 

David

[Fat Controller]

By the early 1990s, Transfesa's warehouse was sub-let to Philips-Whirlpool. The Transfesa vans were replaced by an assortment of bogie ferryvans of various types, along with four-wheel Italian vans- these were originally worked as a block train from Dover Yard, but after the opening of the Channel Tunnel, they were tripped from Wembley instead.

Apart from the traffic to the warehouse (which burnt down on our wedding anniversary a few years ago, causing us to miss our dinner), the sidings were used to hold wagons for the Power Supply part of the engineers, and often had 'specials' such as cable carriers. The road immediately next to the bay was used for crippled wagons- often things like ferry vehicles with hot boxes.

[bcnPete]

Pete, For a look at the track layout at Paddock Wood try here: http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html Enter the eastings/northings 567113 and 145306 which are the co-ordinates for Paddock Wood station. There will be a list of OS maps from 1872 to 1991 at 1:10560 and 1:2500. It's the 1:2500 that you need to look at - the most recent is 1969-1977 so some of the sidings may have disappeared by the 1980s. Sounds an intersting little exercise. I knew you'd find a use for that 4CEP! Wonder if Bachmann will have released the N version of the 2EPB by 2014. . . David

 

David, hi

 

Many thanks - had a quick try but our internet is playing up a little today - a very useful reference though and I will try it for my other projects too.

 

Yes, the 4CEP is truly meant to have a project built around it...and thanks to your Kato chassis I have reinstated the class 33 back onto its original chassis so that can play a part too. I was wondering about the 4EPB too...

 

By the early 1990s, Transfesa's warehouse was sub-let to Philips-Whirlpool. The Transfesa vans were replaced by an assortment of bogie ferryvans of various types, along with four-wheel Italian vans- these were originally worked as a block train from Dover Yard, but after the opening of the Channel Tunnel, they were tripped from Wembley instead. Apart from the traffic to the warehouse (which burnt down on our wedding anniversary a few years ago, causing us to miss our dinner), the sidings were used to hold wagons for the Power Supply part of the engineers, and often had 'specials' such as cable carriers. The road immediately next to the bay was used for crippled wagons- often things like ferry vehicles with hot boxes.

 

May thanks Brian - More useful information to help piece it together. Sorry to hear about your Wedding Anniversary dinner though...

[Xerces Fobe2]

Maybe a bit extreme -

 

 

I have a model of this too i will post a photo of it in soon

 

XF

[demufounder]

 

I will have to try and be a bit clearer on the timeline I am representing...for sure the Blue grey for the 4 CEP and I wonder if I can sneak in a large logo 73 in that time period.

 

 

If you assume that the Farish CEP is numbered the same as the one in OO i.e. 7134 this would give you a latest date as October 1982. This is when the centre cars were split from the set and placed in 7114 (source British Multiple Units: Vol 4 published by Coorlea Publishing).

 

I think some of the earliest LLB 73s were on the Gatwick Express but that wasn't until 1984. Modellers licence perhaps?

 

HTH

[demufounder]

33/0s from Hither Green's allocation and the 33/2s were pretty common at Paddock Wood too then.

 

Here's an nice example of a Dover bound freight with the most interesting thing being the detachment of some vans on the down main

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tigertim1950/4359913904/

 

Checkout the rest of the b/w photos on this site as there are some that show class 47 hauled inter-regionals. Back in the late 70s it made your day if you saw one heading home from the coast, no internet or access to TOPS then so in the main you only heard after it after it had happened.

[bcnPete]

Maybe a bit extreme -

http://www.flickr.co...ews/5814407111/

I have a model of this too i will post a photo of it in soon

 

Thanks Nigel...I couldn't do that to my 4CEP though...its still in the 'honeymoon period'...

 

 

 

If you assume that the Farish CEP is numbered the same as the one in OO i.e. 7134 this would give you a latest date as October 1982. This is when the centre cars were split from the set and placed in 7114 (source British Multiple Units: Vol 4 published by Coorlea Publishing).

 

I think some of the earliest LLB 73s were on the Gatwick Express but that wasn't until 1984. Modellers licence perhaps?

 

HTH

 

Many thanks Mr Founder

 

In that case I will drop the large logo for now...shame as it perked the 73 up a bit...but I do like to keep to a fairly rigid time period.

[bcnPete]

 

Here's an nice example of a Dover bound freight with the most interesting thing being the detachment of some vans on the down main

 

http://www.flickr.co...950/4359913904/

 

Checkout the rest of the b/w photos on this site as there are some that show class 47 hauled inter-regionals. Back in the late 70s it made your day if you saw one heading home from the coast, no internet or access to TOPS then so in the main you only heard after it after it had happened.

 

Many thanks again. Yes, I found this site earlier today...didn't have time to pick out the captions as I was having a general PW trawl but an interesting move leaving the vans behind...

[Andy Parkinson]

Re traffic through Paddock Wood in the 1980's don't forget engineers trains as this was a vital link between Hoo Junction & Tonbridge West Yard, in addition there was a Class 56 hauled MGR service to Brookgate New Hythe 2 days a week which passed Paddock Wood in the down direction onto the branch.

Regards,

Andy

[eastwestdivide]

 

If you assume that the Farish CEP is numbered the same as the one in OO i.e. 7134 this would give you a latest date as October 1982. This is when the centre cars were split from the set and placed in 7114 (source British Multiple Units: Vol 4 published by Coorlea Publishing).

 

I think some of the earliest LLB 73s were on the Gatwick Express but that wasn't until 1984. Modellers licence perhaps?

 

HTH

I've a photo of 73133 in November 1983 in large logo blue* - do you have a date for last unrefurbished 4-CEP in traffic?

 

*Edit: from my notes, it looks like the first one I saw in that livery.

[demufounder]

I've a photo of 73133 in November 1983 in large logo blue - do you have a date for last unrefurbished 4-CEP in traffic?

 

Fom the same source quoted previously it looks like the OP will get away with it, January 1984 for 7103. Didn't realise that LLB was around in 1983.

[bcnPete]

Re traffic through Paddock Wood in the 1980's don't forget engineers trains as this was a vital link between Hoo Junction & Tonbridge West Yard, in addition there was a Class 56 hauled MGR service to Brookgate New Hythe 2 days a week which passed Paddock Wood in the down direction onto the branch.

 

Thanks Andy...always nice to have an excuse to run an engineers train. Not sure whether the 56 will creep into my timeline though...shame that.

 

I've a photo of 73133 in November 1983 in large logo blue* - do you have a date for last unrefurbished 4-CEP in traffic?

 

*Edit: from my notes, it looks like the first one I saw in that livery.

 

Thanks Chris - That sounds possible again. Mind you the Farish 4CEP is numbered 7113 so different to the 00 gauge one. I am not sure how that affects the timeline.

 

 

Fom the same source quoted previously it looks like the OP will get away with it, January 1984 for 7103. Didn't realise that LLB was around in 1983.

 

Thanks DF...although as noted above the Farish one is numbered 7113...any idea where I can source that information?

 

Thanks all again...this evening I will set up a blog for the layout as I now have a partial built mock up and its shaping up nicely. I will add a link on here to it when done.

[bcnPete]

Fom the same source quoted previously it looks like the OP will get away with it, January 1984 for 7103. Didn't realise that LLB was around in 1983.

 

Looking at this excellent website, it looks as if 7002 was the last to be refurbished although that was sent in June 83. The question is, when did 73133 receive its LL livery...or perhaps there was a 73 outshopped before June 83 which would mean I could just about pull it off...( the lengths we go to justify a LL class 73 )

[Fat Controller]

 

Many thanks again. Yes, I found this site earlier today...didn't have time to pick out the captions as I was having a general PW trawl but an interesting move leaving the vans behind...

I think the vans might be Rowntree's traffic for their warehouse at Paddock Wood; in later years, this was trunked to Dover, then worked back with the Whirlpool traffic (hence all the VDA at Dover pictures in 'Working Wagons') The grain silos are clearly visible in the background of this shot- I'm not sure when these went.

Apart from the Hoo-TWY workings, there were also spoil trains to a CCE tip (East Peckham) on the Maidstone line.

[Gwiwer]

I understand Paddock Wood is the prime contender now but a couple of other suggestions I don't see anywhere above would include:

 

Hawkhurst (or any of the intermediate stations on the branch) or even Westerham, on the assumption that they had stayed open until electrification and traffic then perked up enough for them to avoid the Good Doctor's Axe;

 

Seaford has been mentioned but not Newhaven Harbour / Maritime. You could justifiably show a Cep there, have freight or boat trains behind a 33 or 73 and even (subject to being able to build one!) a Raworth "booster". Now there's food for thought!

[bcnPete]

I think the vans might be Rowntree's traffic for their warehouse at Paddock Wood; in later years, this was trunked to Dover, then worked back with the Whirlpool traffic (hence all the VDA at Dover pictures in 'Working Wagons') The grain silos are clearly visible in the background of this shot- I'm not sure when these went.

Apart from the Hoo-TWY workings, there were also spoil trains to a CCE tip (East Peckham) on the Maidstone line.

Thank you...it would be great to try and recreate that sequence of detaching the vans on the layout...

 

I understand Paddock Wood is the prime contender now but a couple of other suggestions I don't see anywhere above would include:

 

Hawkhurst (or any of the intermediate stations on the branch) or even Westerham, on the assumption that they had stayed open until electrification and traffic then perked up enough for them to avoid the Good Doctor's Axe;

 

Seaford has been mentioned but not Newhaven Harbour / Maritime. You could justifiably show a Cep there, have freight or boat trains behind a 33 or 73 and even (subject to being able to build one!) a Raworth "booster". Now there's food for thought!

 

Thanks also Gwiwer...I did wonder about Seaford...and originally contemplated Weymouth but I figured the 4CEP never ventured to those parts?

 

Many thanks for the suggestions...

[bcnPete]

I have now set up a blog for this layout using a first mock up model which can be viewed here

 

Thank you for all the suggestions and contributions to date on this thread. I hope we can continue it as its always refreshing to uncover new interesting facts when researching a layout.

[Oldddudders]

Thanks also Gwiwer...I did wonder about Seaford...and originally contemplated Weymouth but I figured the 4CEP never ventured to those parts?

A CEP might well have got to Seaford occasionally, as the Central had a small number of them, and incorrect formations were the bane of life with so many different stock types available. [The 10.00 Regional Operating Conference (every week day) would hammer the Central for its wrong formations on a regular basis.] No CEP in original condition would have reached Weymouth, since it wasn't electrified until several years after the last CEP conversion.

[Gwiwer]

Cep units certainly did reach Seaford. The through London trains in the peak hours were formed of Cig (from Seaford) plus Big+Cig (from Eastbourne and with the Cig sometimes through from Hastings / Ore) combining / splitting at Lewes. As Ian says the Central Division had a few Cep and Bep units ostensibly for the Mid-Sussex line but they regularly strayed elsewhere as replacements for a Cig or Big.

 

They would have reached Seaford in green, blue and as-built blue/grey and may also have worked the occasional coastal stopper to and from Brighton as part of the London diagrams

 

In that area you can also incorporate the Newhaven Breakwater line and potentially place a class 09 or a 12 (but almost never an 08) which would have been present as the Newhaven pilot.

[Revolution Mike]

Hi Pete

 

Don't forget that nice Mr Taylor does things for MLVs, CEPs, BEPs and CIGs. I suspect there is a good chance that by 2014 we will have seen Bachmann shrinkify their 2EPB and possibly the MLV they are doing in 4mm.

 

Shounds like another interesting project you have started!

 

Cheers, Mike

[bcnPete]

A CEP might well have got to Seaford occasionally, as the Central had a small number of them, and incorrect formations were the bane of life with so many different stock types available. [The 10.00 Regional Operating Conference (every week day) would hammer the Central for its wrong formations on a regular basis.] No CEP in original condition would have reached Weymouth, since it wasn't electrified until several years after the last CEP conversion.

 

Thanks Ian - Seaford would have been a bit more familiar for me (am sure I went with my parents when younger) but the freight element seemed less interesting. I have fond memories of seeing the boat train at Weymouth on vacation there with my folks...in fact, it's the only thing I can remember about Weymouth

 

Cep units certainly did reach Seaford. The through London trains in the peak hours were formed of Cig (from Seaford) plus Big+Cig (from Eastbourne and with the Cig sometimes through from Hastings / Ore) combining / splitting at Lewes. As Ian says the Central Division had a few Cep and Bep units ostensibly for the Mid-Sussex line but they regularly strayed elsewhere as replacements for a Cig or Big.

 

They would have reached Seaford in green, blue and as-built blue/grey and may also have worked the occasional coastal stopper to and from Brighton as part of the London diagrams

 

In that area you can also incorporate the Newhaven Breakwater line and potentially place a class 09 or a 12 (but almost never an 08) which would have been present as the Newhaven pilot.

 

Thanks again Gwiwer...Good food for thought incase PW goes belly up...

 

Hi Pete

Don't forget that nice Mr Taylor does things for MLVs, CEPs, BEPs and CIGs. I suspect there is a good chance that by 2014 we will have seen Bachmann shrinkify their 2EPB and possibly the MLV they are doing in 4mm.

Sounds like another interesting project you have started!

 

Many thanks Mike - Yes I have one of Bernard's MU chassis (bought for a 121 Bubble project) and two Bachmann F7 chassis which could get a new lease of life. I will have to recheck Bernard's list...I was aware that Worley works do most of them scratch aids...but best not start something else yet!

 

You might be right on the Bachmann shrinking...now that would be nice

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

Masterclass Models are also supplying SR EMUs such as 4EPB to overlay onto the new Farish Coaches (though they will also work on the old ones). The sides are etched in nickel silver (I think its 6 thou) and come preformed.

 

I have a 4EPB under construction at the moment using these sides, TPM ends, TPM MUMU and scratchbuilt underframe details.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[LC&DR]

Has anyone suggest Dover Priory as a suitable location for the layout or is this too long too?

[bcnPete]

Masterclass Models are also supplying SR EMUs such as 4EPB to overlay onto the new Farish Coaches (though they will also work on the old ones). The sides are etched in nickel silver (I think its 6 thou) and come preformed.

I have a 4EPB under construction at the moment using these sides, TPM ends, TPM MUMU and scratchbuilt underframe details.

 

Paul, hi - Thanks for this - I needn't have PM'd you if I had read this first! Apologies for that.

 

I have one of Bernard's TPM MUMU's awaiting a use...for which I have just found the solution!

 

Has anyone suggest Dover Priory as a suitable location for the layout or is this too long too?

 

Thanks LC&DR - I think I had ruled it out as being too long and now I have committed myself on Paddock Wood.

 

DP is a nice location though and would be nice to see modelled...any takers?...

[Simon Lee]

There were also a couple of sidings on the up side, which I believe were on the route of the Hawkhurst branch, these were used by two other fruit importers Mack and Edwards and Broome and Green. These companies had a small flow of vans normally but not exclusively Interfrigos.

 

Additionally there was a siding on the down side, London side of the overbridge, adjacent to the car auction site. This tended to be used for empty ferries, particularly for the night return service to Dover.

 

I started in TOPS at Dover in 1981, when there were two services per day to Paddock Wood. With a third in the peak season in the run up to Christmas. On occasion the Rowntrees traffic, was over carried to Dover, which because of the sensitivity of the traffic, usually signalled a special to PW once the overcarried wagons arrived. The empty Rowntrees wagons were bought down to Dover on the return morning service and forwarded on our 6E53 Dover - Tyne Speedlink which called at Dringhouses.

 

One other traffic I remember was fertiliser from Ince and Elton in the Shellstar bogie vans, without delving onto the loft, I think it was once or twice a week, Again the empties passed via Dover onto 6M94 Dover - Bescot/Warrington.

 

Hope this is of interest.

 

Simon