Italian Cruise Ship

[spamcan61]

But the electrics and furnishings are the cheap bits - as long the steel structure of the ship is sound, then providing the technology and know how exists to do it, then she is emminently recoverable.

 

Surely several days/weeks immersion in salt water won't be good for the internal structure though? Ok the hull itself is obviously designed to withstand immersion in salt water (or it's not much of a ship..), but is that also true of the internal structure?

[Kris]

Quite agree but that is what they have factored into their losses according to one report (the only one I've seen which quotes numbers). Perhaps that was based on where it was before it slipped into slightly deeper water - and is clearly pre any sort of survey.

 

I guess it will be down to the insurance companies as to how it is salvaged and whether it is repaired. I wonder if the insurance covers loss of earnings for the company in the time that the ship is out of action? This could be a major cost if a replacement has to be constructed from scratch.

[Bon Accord]

Surely several days/weeks immersion in salt water won't be good for the internal structure though? Ok the hull itself is obviously designed to withstand immersion in salt water (or it's not much of a ship..), but is that also true of the internal structure?

 

The only internal structure worth concerning oneself about is the longitudnal and transverse steel bulkheads - a few weeks or indeed months immersed in salt water won't do them much harm at all, everything else is disposable and compared to building a new steel hull, cheap to replace.

[edcayton]

It now seems as though there is other damage to the hull under water, as well as the huge gash with the rock sticking out.

 

Ed

[Andy C]

_{I was listening to the Today programme on R4 on my way into work this morning and they were interviewing the very informative ex Captain of HMS Ardent, who went through a similar but slightly more violent sinking in Falkland Sound - they were debating the principles of Captain being last man off etc. He made a wonderful quote of W Somerset- Maugham " I prefer sailing in Italian ships as they dont bother with such niceties as women and children first"}

[Ozexpatriate]

It now seems as though there is other damage to the hull under water, as well as the huge gash with the rock sticking out.

Ed, where did you see that? The visible hull damage, while severe, is only a couple of metres below the waterline and is very localized.

[Ozexpatriate]

Interested in what will happen with the ship longer term, how will it be recovered and moved. Will it be sold for scrap or refurbed and renamed etc? Presume the sea water is hardly doing the electric cables etc much good at present.

BBC article explores the options, here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-16573312

It's beyond belief that it can be recovered, surely. The thing has been immersed in salt water for several days, that isn't going to do the electrics, furnishings or internal structure any good at all.

as long the steel structure of the ship is sound, then providing the technology and know how exists to do it, then she is emminently recoverable.

The only internal structure worth concerning oneself about is the longitudnal and transverse steel bulkheads - a few weeks or indeed months immersed in salt water won't do them much harm at all, everything else is disposable and compared to building a new steel hull, cheap to replace.

Irrespective of whether this hull will sail again as a cruise liner, it will be salvaged. It cannot be left where it is. The visible hull damage can likely be patched sufficiently well to refloat it and tow it either to a salvage yard where it will be stripped or to a dock where it could be completely gutted and refitted as a cruise liner once more - just like new!

 

It was widely reported yesterday as a "total loss" from an insurance standpoint. Given nautical superstitions, it seems unlikely to me that future cruise passengers will want to sail on such an unlucky ship and its future is probably razor blades. Reports that they are using explosives in the rescue/recovery effort for people trapped in the ship is not promising. That's a desparate choice if there are still people who may be rescued at this point.

 

Were this a cargo ship, I would say it's prospects for sailing again were good (apart from the hole with the rock, it's hull seems sound), but given that it is a cruise liner, I can't imagine who would want to sail on her. Virtually everything on this ship is recyclable and this will offset some of the insurance cost.

 

From a technical standpoint, the recovery operation will be fascinating to follow.

 

As to the recovery of ships that sink in shallow water, of the four USN battleships sunk by the Japanese Imperial Navy in Pearl Harbor in 1941, two (the USS West Virginia and the USS California) returned to active duty. A third, the USS Oklahoma was refloated but lost while under tow to the mainland after the war. Only the USS Arizona was left where it sank.)

 

(Yes I am speculating a bit here and I am not a naval architect.)

[Welly]

Assuming the translation is reasonably accurate, the phone conversation between the Coastgaurd and the Captain appears somewhat career limiting....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16599655

This is probably the most embarrassing conversation to have been broadcast! He will be lucky to be a cabin boy on the Hythe ferry after this!

[Ozexpatriate]

Assuming the translation is reasonably accurate, the phone conversation between the Coastgaurd and the Captain appears somewhat career limiting.... http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16599655

Somewhat! And with the rush to judgement that Italian justice is fond of, I can imagine a decisive verdict at his trial.

 

CNN has a longer transcript.

 

This was the most telling part to me:

Schettino: "What do you mean get down? We abandoned the ship…the ship turned ..."

De Falco: "...and with one hundred people on board you abandon the ship? (expletive)"

[Bernard Lamb]

Irrespective of whether this hull will sail again as a cruise liner, it will be salvaged. It cannot be left where it is.

 

Why not?

They left the USS America to rot.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

Reports that they are using explosives in the rescue/recovery effort for people trapped in the ship is not promising. That's a desparate choice if there are still people who may be rescued at this point.

A couple of the explosives detonations were shown on tv news this evening - clearly very carefully placed to just go through platework clear of the frames because the holes were being made for diver access - and I would think equally easy to plate over pending a proper shipyard repair?

[Ozexpatriate]

Why not?

They left the USS America to rot.

The 1994 wreck of the SS America in the Canary Islands?

 

The Canary Islands are out of sight and out of mind and it was a function of who owned the hull at the time. Since then, I think times have changed and the ecological/aesthetic impact of the Costa Concordia wreck coupled with the PR liability to the corporate parent Carnival Cruise Lines will force them to move it.

[Ozexpatriate]

A couple of the explosives detonations were shown on tv news this evening - clearly very carefully placed to just go through platework clear of the frames because the holes were being made for diver access - and I would think equally easy to plate over pending a proper shipyard repair?

Yes - I made that comment before I saw the video online. The explosions were very controlled and will have little to no impact on salvage. Hopefully they will prove effective for rescue/recovery efforts.

[birdseyecircus]

I have been on 2 RCCL cruises and had to do the lifeboat drill. You can tell most passengers hated it - but they will pay attention now.

 

What get me is the media being allowed on boats right up to the liner and all the info being given out.

In the UK there would have been an exclusion zone and information would have been forthcoming at the inquiry.

 

Regarding the salavage, there was a car carrier called the tricolor which ended up on its side in the channel in the mid 2000's. Look here and scroll down to the 2 min video showing it being cut up in sections and lifted out - complete with cars still wedged in. http://www.scaldis-smc.com/tricolor.html

 

Paul

[Debs.]

.......complete with cars still wedged in........

 

.....nothing a 10 minute buff with t-cut couldn`t sort out!

[Kris]

 

Regarding the salavage, there was a car carrier called the tricolor which ended up on its side in the channel in the mid 2000's. Look here and scroll down to the 2 min video showing it being cut up in sections and lifted out - complete with cars still wedged in. http://www.scaldis-s...m/tricolor.html

 

 

You also have the MSC Napoli that was cut up "on the beach" at Branscombe.

[edcayton]

Ed, where did you see that? The visible hull damage, while severe, is only a couple of metres below the waterline and is very localized.

 

I can't do links, but if you google "concordia underwater damage" it's the third or fourth down

 

Ed

[Legend]

....only due to lazy journalism.

 

I'd be more inclined to think this was a Herald of Free Enterprise / Zeebrugge moment. Relatively shallow waters, and possible lack of attention by the crew.

 

Reference to Titanic moment was that people thought Titanic unsinkable and could not conceive of her foundering. The modern cruise industry, while not mentioning unsinkable, was getting to the point that they could not conceive of a modern cruise ship foundering because of all the safety equipment. Thats the Titanic moment

[chris p bacon]

Why not?

They left the USS America to rot.

Bernard

 

She was on her way to a beach in India/Bangladesh and it seems the salvage would cost more than her value, also you have to try and find the owners, harder than you think.

 

In a similar theme, it used to be the case that seamen had their wages stopped from the moment the "Abandon ship" order was given. I had an uncle in the Merchant Navy in WW2 and it happened to him twice when his ships were torpedoed. This rule did not apply to the RN sailors although I think they were on even lower pay at the time. I don't know if this practice still applies.

 

My father was captured by Scharnhorst in 1941 and the ship shelled and sunk, he did not receive pay for that day as it had not been completed, although technically a civilian and should have been repatriated, he spent 4 years in a variety of French concentration camps before ending up in a specially built camp for Merchantmen called Marlag und Milag Nord in Germany.

When he returned home, BP said if any men made themselves fit enough to return to work within 4 or 6 months (?) then their pension would be backdated to the date of sinking. He took it.

[Ozexpatriate]

Ed, where did you see that? The visible hull damage, while severe, is only a couple of metres below the waterline and is very localized.

I can't do links, but if you google "concordia underwater damage" it's the third or fourth down

Thanks Ed, I've seen these pictures.

 

I could well be wrong, but I think the first picture (listed as hull damage) is damage to the starboard rail at main deck level where it lies on the sea bottom - not the hull below the ship's waterline, which is the only bit that matters for refloating the Costa Concordia. Same comments for picture 8.

[Bon Accord]

My father was captured by Scharnhorst in 1941 and the ship shelled and sunk, he did not receive pay for that day as it had not been completed, although technically a civilian and should have been repatriated, he spent 4 years in a variety of French concentration camps before ending up in a specially built camp for Merchantmen called Marlag und Milag Nord in Germany.

When he returned home, BP said if any men made themselves fit enough to return to work within 4 or 6 months (?) then their pension would be backdated to the date of sinking. He took it.

 

I take it he was aboard 'British Strength'?

For a private company, the BTC (British Tanker Company as was - it properly became BPTC in 1956) took a real hammering: 50 company ships sunk and almost 700 men lost - all civilian volunteers.

My Grandfather sailed with the BTC as Bosun during that war, my Father later sailed as Master with them, and I served my Cadetship with the BPTC and left after getting to the dizzy heights of 2nd Officer. They were a good outfit and generally looked after their men, although those days are long since gone and they're unrecognisable these days (and not so good, apparently).

[chris p bacon]

I take it he was aboard 'British Strength'?

For a private company, the BTC (British Tanker Company as was - it properly became BPTC in 1956) took a real hammering: 50 company ships sunk and almost 700 men lost - all civilian volunteers.

My Grandfather sailed with the BTC as Bosun during that war, my Father later sailed as Master with them, and I served my Cadetship with the BPTC and left after getting to the dizzy heights of 2nd Officer. They were a good outfit and generally looked after their men, although those days are long since gone and they're unrecognisable these days (and not so good, apparently).

 

Yes he was on Strength as 6th engineer, stayed with the company until 1978 when he was Commodore chief Engineer, he retired then promptly got tempted back finally retiring at age 74 in 1994.

I think I read somewhere that the average age of the men BP lost in WW2 was 22 whereas the RN was 27, so many of the deckhands were still 15/16 year old boys.

 

 

Listening to the voice recordings released by the coastguard, it seems a very odd conversation for the CG to have, almost as if they are a*s covering themselves, I always understood that the Master of the vessel may leave if he thought that he could better organise evac from the water/shore so long as he delegated senior officers to stay aboard.

[Bruce Depot]

it seems unlikely to me that future cruise passengers will want to sail on such an unlucky ship and its future is probably razor blades.

(Yes I am speculating a bit here and I am not a naval architect.)

 

But presuming it was re-named most people would never know!

Mind if it slips much more, it will start to really damage the other side

(Starboard?)I presume

Will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months

keith

[Bon Accord]

Chris,

In a slightly OT diversion, I wonder if you've seen these? They were sent to me by another chap who had a relative onboard and show the Strength under fire, survivors aboard Scharnhorst and them all as prisonsers at Milag Nord.

 

[chris p bacon]

Chris,

In a slightly OT diversion, I wonder if you've seen these? They were sent to me by another chap who had a relative onboard and show the Strength under fire, survivors aboard Scharnhorst and them all as prisonsers at Milag Nord.

 

 

Father is PoW front row 3rd from right, I think it might of been me that posted these on a Brian (somethings) ?? Merchant Navy site in response to something, A picture was taken of each huts and its occupants so that they could use it as a postcard to inform families, when dad sent it home in late 1942/3 it was some 18 months after capture and the first time that his parents knew he was still alive.

 

I also found out that the young chap talking to Scharnhorsts captain was a Lewis Mcmahon (aged 15) from an earlier sinking.

 

These pictures were sent to Father in 1965 after the launch of British Admiral, they came from BP's Dusseldorf office from a Heir Bockmul who then worked for BP but had been the safety officer on Scharnhorst.

 

I asked Father once why he is smiling in the picture, he said " because he was finally fed something and away from the French"