S.A.C Martin Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Hornby do sometimes seem intent on confusing potentail customers understanding of the Brand Ranges. The issue of 'Railroad' D49, County and Midland Compound, all using new loco chassis to the standard of the 'Hornby main range' T9 and Schools class locos for instance, could lead to expectations that the RRPs of the latter could fall rather than increase as has actually happened. The thing is, the D49 in particular is still an excellent model, and moreso with the better chassis. I have bought two now at quite reasonable prices, despite the dreaded traction tyres. The ones which floor me at the minute are the two new diesels, Warship and 31. I cannot for the life of me understand why such a mish-mash of tooling and livery application has been applied (see both threads for discussion on the mixing up of detail differences). Given Hornby retain the moulds for both (presumably) as ex-Lima, how is it that two new models exhibit such strange characteristics - beading on the 31, for instance. Just using the end mould with the beading would make the model consistent. It is the inconsistency in the application which leaves everyone scratching their heads and asking "why"? My gut feeling on the 4-4-0s is that they picked a loco chassis which could feasibly give them four different products using the one tooled up chassis, with alternate parts, saving on having to tool multiple chassis. Makes good business and economic sense. D49, Compound and County. None of these three duplicate anything within Hornby's own range. Then we get the news that the Schools class model is in the Railroad range too - so they are selling both a super detail and a Railroad version. With many Schools models up and down the country on the shelves, and at the box shifters, I'm struggling to understand that choice other than it gave Hornby another use for the standard 4-4-0. But is it the right choice of model to do - will it undermine the existing super detail one? The general thinking is that different people buy into the Railroad and super detail ranges, but I'm not so sure that is the case, hence the amount of discussion over Railroad range bashed conversions or detailing projects on here, or in the case of the 31 - replacement chassis! Out of curiosity, apart from the packaging and prices, does anyone know if there's a difference between a Railroad 4472 and a 'Legends' seies Flying Scotsman )? Just the printing process for the lining out. That is literally it. It is the same bodyshell for loco and tender, and chassis. The same goes for the Railroad 'Evening Star' (Excellent value) and the new Anniversary Edition. See above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The Hornby railroad 9F & Black 5 are absolutely wonderful locos for a bit over £50. I have a couple of each and am very pleased with their performance. Great value for money. I think Hornby is loosing it a bit though with livery & price, especially non-railroad locos. Every loco should be constantly availiable in it's most sought after livery. i.e. Green & Rail Blue for early diesels, also late / early crest choice for steam. The low volume specials are nice to have, but most folks want the "everyday working" loco. Leave them un-numbered and pack a selection of suitable "rub on" numbers & crests. Shouldn't cost a fortune. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Yup. Bachmann are very good at managing expectations of items by their Blue Ribbon labelling. Hornby really should adopt something simliar. We'd end up with three tiers of items, but that's okay. Railroad is meant to be a value range, the Blue Ribbon equivalent would be flagship models commanding a premium price based on expected features, and the lot in the middle will be the "good enough until Blue Ribboned" selection. At the moment, everything not Railroad is lumped together. I thought that Bachmann had moved away from the "Blue Riband" label. Do they still use it and I just missed something? It seems that your observation is that Hornby have a regular range (rather than a premium range) that contains models of highly variable quality, generally due to the combination of brand new and older tooling being used, (as indeed is also true of the Railroad Range). Most of the US suppliers use only two levels of branding. It is interesting to note whether they add the brand distinction to create a premium or a budget brand, and many do both. Premium // Budget Atlas Master Line // Atlas Trainman Athearn Genesis // Athearn Bachmann Spectrum // Bachmann Broadway Limited Paragon Series 2 // Broadway Limited Blueline Hornby's extra branding distinguishes only the low-end, which emphasizes the "budget" focus. Hornby // Hornby Railroad In the old days Hornby used lots of high-end designations like "Silver Seal" and "Top Link" over the years. These have fallen by the wayside as they became meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bachmann aren't making model soldiers - the company (Top Gear) that makes these has contracted Bachmann to promote and distribute Top Gear's product. Isn't this "First Gear"? The W.Britain's range is a good fit for distribution by Bachmann Europe Plc's sales channel, as indeed are the Breyer horses by Hornby Plc's channel. They are both hobby items. Much more so than Hornby distributing Olympic themed coins for the Royal Mint or the Olympics key rings etc. I imagine the Hornby sales staff are really busy right now trying to line up London tourist traps and newsagents to sell Wenlock and Mandeville figurines by the gross. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 ... In the old days Hornby used lots of high-end designations like "Silver Seal" and "Top Link" over the years. These have fallen by the wayside as they became meaningless. There's a pattern then. High end, budget, whatever; regardless of the theme, they have difficulty sticking to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2012 Isn't this "First Gear"? The W.Britain's range is a good fit for distribution by Bachmann Europe Plc's sales channel, as indeed are the Breyer horses by Hornby Plc's channel. They are both hobby items. Much more so than Hornby distributing Olympic themed coins for the Royal Mint or the Olympics key rings etc. I imagine the Hornby sales staff are really busy right now trying to line up London tourist traps and newsagents to sell Wenlock and Mandeville figurines by the gross. Interesting moan article in the online version of 'The Little Englander' 'The Daily Mail' today about the manufacturing origin of the stuff on sale through the official Olympics tatshop sales outlet. Most of it is made offshore with China in the manufacturing lead. I had a quick look at the shop's website and was interested to see that although the diecast cars etc and coins are there I couldn't find some of the more 'esoteric' Hornby items so I wonder where they will be sold? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Isn't this "First Gear"? Indeed it is (I find the company name original and evocative)... Just received an email alert that the Bachmann Collet Goods with ROD tender (DCC Ready) is due in stock on Monday, 6th Feb. (RRP=£68.00, when discounted this will be around the £55.00 mark) - I consider this good value for money... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I was looking at the Kernow and Hattons recently arrived lists and felt exactly the same looking at Bachmann's bread and butter models... all of them appeared to me to offer excellent value for money. All of them I could buy using my monthly spending budget, whereas the Hornby items lurk a few pounds too far over the Hmmm maybe another day limit. I am worried that recent intiatives such as Olly, Toy Story, the Olympics and Star Wars are going to prove to be massive financial millstones around Hornby's neck which only lead to further increased prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dubdee1000 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 "There's a pattern then. High end, budget, whatever; regardless of the theme, they have difficulty sticking to it." Well said. Hornby seem to have lost direction. Whereas we once used to know what we're getting with Railroad vs Regular Hornby, its all now blurred, except the prices which seem particularly sharp cf other manufacturers (and not just Bachmann) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I thought that Bachmann had moved away from the "Blue Riband" label. Do they still use it and I just missed something? In 'N' gauge, yes, it is still used - I assume to differentiate the acquired GF models apart from their own developments. In '00' gauge it appears to have slipped quietly away. The reason for this is seems to be that Bachmann have upgraded/added so much new stuff that there is now no real requirement to distinguish between the acquired (read legacy) ex-Airfix/Mainline tooling and newly tooled items being released. As a rule of thumb in the Bachmann '00' range, anything that is 33-xxx (wagon) and 34-xxx (coach) represent 'legacy' tooling. Bachmann tooling for new wagons is in the 37-xxx & 38-xxx range, whilst from the coaching side these are in the 39-xxx series. The loco side appears to be more complex - the 31-xxx series used to represent 'legacy' tooling, but with Bachmann's 'intelligent' catalogue numbering system it looks like that some newly tooled locos are appearing in the 31-xxx range (because they ran out of sub-numbering ranges) rather than going into a new catalogue number range, e.g. 50-xxx Hornby manage a simpler catalogue numbering system, 2xxx, 4xxx & 6xxx. New releases that haven't been done for a while for a particular subject gets a '+1' added to the latest catalogue number. The more recent releases (new running number etc...) receive an alphabetical suffix to the catalogue item in vogue (Bachmann do the same). The difference between Bachmann and Hornby branding of their respective product range is simple - Hornby distinguish their product by essentially branding their budget range (railroad - which has always led to confusion and comment), whilst Bachmann do (did) the opposite - they branded their hi-fi range that,at least in '00' gauge, they do not need to do anymore... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Indeed it is (I find the company name original and evocative)... Just received an email alert that the Bachmann Collet Goods with ROD tender (DCC Ready) is due in stock on Monday, 6th Feb. (RRP=£68.00, when discounted this will be around the £55.00 mark) - I consider this good value for money... dilbert I find Bachys pricing a bit of a conundrum at times, with the 3F and collet goods been very good value for money, yet the 30xx seems quite steap to me considering it used an existing chassis. The same applies to Hornby though. The 9F and railroad black5 for what you get are very good value for money, where as the 2P and 4F seem to be very over priced. One item I havn't bought off Hornby for many years now have been coaches. To me although they are very fine models are just too expensive for me to buy. With my eyesight not been quite what it used to be older stuff looks good enough. Shame if you want LNER era stock mind you..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 4, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2012 I imagine the Hornby sales staff are really busy right now trying to line up London tourist traps and newsagents to sell Wenlock and Mandeville figurines by the gross. Shouldn't that read: "I imagine the Hornby sales staff are really busy right now trying to line up London tourist traps and newsagents to sell gross Wenlock and Mandeville figurines." As they say "I'll get me coat.." Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 4, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2012 In '00' gauge it appears to have slipped quietly away. The reason for this is seems to be that Bachmann have upgraded/added so much new stuff that there is now no real requirement to distinguish between the acquired (read legacy) ex-Airfix/Mainline tooling and newly tooled items being released. As a rule of thumb in the Bachmann '00' range, anything that is 33-xxx (wagon) and 34-xxx (coach) represent 'legacy' tooling. Bachmann tooling for new wagons is in the 37-xxx & 38-xxx range, whilst from the coaching side these are in the 39-xxx series. The loco side appears to be more complex - the 31-xxx series used to represent 'legacy' tooling, but with Bachmann's 'intelligent' catalogue numbering system it looks like that some newly tooled locos are appearing in the 31-xxx range (because they ran out of sub-numbering ranges) rather than going into a new catalogue number range, e.g. 50-xxx The problem with Bachmann is that there seems to be, apart from the number range, little to define the legacy and new products, especially wagons, now that the monika "Blue Riband" has disappeared, the prices, especially wagons, seeming little different. Re legacy: Did Bachmann get any ex-Airfix products? I thought they all went via Dapol to Hornby, including any Mainline tools owned by Palitoy and not Kader. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 The problem with Bachmann is that there seems to be, apart from the number range, little to define the legacy and new products, especially wagons, now that the monika "Blue Riband" has disappeared, the prices, especially wagons, seeming little different. The problem with all these marketing designations is that they grow stale over time. Say a brand new model is released today and labelled as "double-plus good lucky happy goldstar sunshine". It goes through a couple of livery changes and stays in the catalogue for some years. After a hiatus of some more years, it is reintroduced, without being shunted into the "budget" range. Is it still worthy of the "double-plus good lucky happy goldstar sunshine" badge, or does it now deserve a "recycled old tat" designation - which most marketeers are disinclined to use. If the reintroduction is a new livery or running number (as these things inevitably are) it gets labelled as "NEW" which it both is and isn't. When products appear and reappear in catalogues for years and years like model railway items do, the premium branding becomes problematic. As consumers we become more sophisticated and less susceptible to marketing tactics. There aren't any easy fixes here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2012 The problem with all these marketing designations is that they grow stale over time. Say a brand new model is released today and labelled as "double-plus good lucky happy goldstar sunshine". It goes through a couple of livery changes and stays in the catalogue for some years. After a hiatus of some more years, it is reintroduced, without being shunted into the "budget" range. Is it still worthy of the "double-plus good lucky happy goldstar sunshine" badge, or does it now deserve a "recycled old tat" designation - which most marketeers are disinclined to use. If the reintroduction is a new livery or running number (as these things inevitably are) it gets labelled as "NEW" which it both is and isn't. When products appear and reappear in catalogues for years and years like model railway items do, the premium branding becomes problematic. As consumers we become more sophisticated and less susceptible to marketing tactics. There aren't any easy fixes here. Yes, but using railway terminology, First class is always better than Second class. The passenger knows this and will book their ticket accordingly. If Bachmann kept Blue Riband as their premium brand, any that were not accorded this designation could be assumed to be legacy products. The Toad, Queen Mary, Well Wagon and Bolster (and others including the 34-xxx coaches) are all legacy products but there is no differentiation apart from the number range, in their catalogue, certainly not always by price! The same with Hornby, Railroad were always in the "Second Class" category, however lately Items that should be Railroad have appeared either in sets or alone at "First Class" prices. And some recent re-engineered Railroad items have "First Class" mechanics. There lies the confusion. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 However there is a slight problem with 'premium' branding in that something which doesn't carry that brand could be regarded as inferior in some way. I wonder if that is why Bachmann dropped the Blue Riband idea, especially as a lot of its range was improving in any case (or did it just save on packaging printing costs?). For Hornby the 'Railroad' branding is far simpler because they have a much wider traditional market base and while we think know there are clear problems with their use of the brand the 'toyshop' market might look at it in a different way and discern an intermediate level? This is of course always going to be a potential problem from our viewpoint (with good reason of course) as is the downright weird pricing policy - which will, I think, have adverse impact in many of their markets whatever brand name they do or don't attach to their products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2012 Shouldn't that read: "I imagine the Hornby sales staff are really busy right now trying to line up London tourist traps and newsagents to sell gross Wenlock and Mandeville figurines." As they say "I'll get me coat.." Keith I was in Modelzone Glasgow yesterday. Looks like they've had an outbreak of Olympicitis. Lots of figurines, couldn't see if they were Hornby (Corgi?)and only noted it in passing as it doesn't float my boat. I think it remains to be seen whether people will part their hard earned for something that would perhaps be more suitable for an Esso Coins Collection - I still have my 1970s World Cup set! Reckon Hornby going off at a tangent again which will prove disasterous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 suitable for an Esso Coins Collection - I still have my 1970s World Cup set! Memory recall. As a Scout, very Friday evening there was a strategically positioned Esso station en route to the scout hut. There and back, we used to pick up handfuls of these coins basically because of pestering the petrol station personel. Don't have any now, but IIRC the coins would have been mounted on a blue coloured based board. It was also the year that my parents bought their first colour television... dilbert (now feeling ancient) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Re legacy: Did Bachmann get any ex-Airfix products? I thought they all went via Dapol to Hornby, including any Mainline tools owned by Palitoy and not Kader. Keith I can't think of any off the top of my head- IIRC all of the legacy items in the Bachmann range seem to be of Mainline origin, whereas there's quite a bit of Airfix via Dapol stuff still in Hornby's range Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 6, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2012 there's quite a bit of Airfix via Dapol stuff still in Hornby's range Plus one or two derived from Mainline where Palitoy had extra tools which they owned & Dapol (I think) purchased. The 2P loco was, I believe ex Mainline (with an Airfix tender!) as are one or two wagons, which duplicate ones in Bachmann's range. If you throw in the Replica saga as well, the derivation of models in the UK market becomes very, very complicated AFAIK All Kader owned tools went, naturally, to the Bachmann range. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
autocoach Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 From the February 2012 Model Railroad Hobbyist: "Athearn Anticipates Delays On Some Products In mid-January, Athearn, division of Horizon Hobby, announced that delivery of some new products may be delayed due to the unexpected shutdown of one of its contract manufacturers in China. Athearn’s announcement came after international financial agencies reported that Creative Masters Limited (CML) had filed for bankruptcy. Earlier reports said CML had not reported a profit since 2009. CML is headquartered in Kowloon Bay, Hong Kong, with manufacturing facilities in Donngguan, PRC. In addition to Athearn, CML manufactures model railroad products for Hornby, Fleischmann, and Roco. A major segment of CML’s business is diecast vehicles which it manufactures for Corgi, Tamiya, Mattel, PMA Models, MBI, SMS, Bianti, and First Gear. CML also produces Keepsake Collectible Ornaments for Hallmark Cards Inc. Noting that it has other manufacturing partners in China, Athearn said it expects to meet the scheduled delivery date of late March for its DDA40X and SD70ACe/SD70M-2s Genesis locomotives, as well as the Genesis SP bay-window caboose. Delivery information about other products initially expected to arrive this year is pending..." This may have some impact on Hornby deliveries for 2012. Let's hope not too much of the 2012 line is not from CML. Personally, it appears my Athearn SP MT4 4-8-2 with Skyline casing is now amongst the indefinitely "delayed". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi Ken, that news was posted here a few weeks ago ( Chinese Supplier Folds & CML gone bust? ) including the Athearn press statement; but it may be relevant to this topic too. I suppose it depends on how much work had been placed with CML? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not sure that anyone has positively identified Hornby's second source after Kader/Sanda Kan. The second source built the 28xx and 38xx/2884, and I thought Tornado as well (though I can't remember now). It was interesting to see Corgi on the list of brands that CML did contract manufacturing for. I wonder if there's any Olympic themed items that missed their production slot? Given all the lead times, chances are that they would be very close to being all done now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Plus one or two derived from Mainline where Palitoy had extra tools which they owned & Dapol (I think) purchased. The 2P loco was, I believe ex Mainline (with an Airfix tender!) as are one or two wagons, which duplicate ones in Bachmann's range. If you throw in the Replica saga as well, the derivation of models in the UK market becomes very, very complicated AFAIK All Kader owned tools went, naturally, to the Bachmann range. Keith Indeed, the 2P was released by Mainline- I do wonder if it was a part-developed project inherited by them when they bought the Airfix range- apart from the obvious sharing of the tender drive (itself a pretty big anomaly compared with the rest of the Mainline range), as a model it does seem to have much more the feel of an Airfix rather than Palitoy product. As you say, Kader owned the Mainline tooling, whereas I think Airfix owned their own- the fact that when General Mills pulled the plug on Mainline, the 2P went with the ex-Airfix stuff to Dapol, rather than being retained by Kader, suggests that the 2P might not have had much to do with Kader... Yes, the history of the UK market since that period is pretty complicated- and it's surprising that so many of these old stagers from this period are still in the catalogues of our major manufacturers today... Hi Ken, that news was posted here a few weeks ago ( Chinese Supplier Folds & CML gone bust? ) including the Athearn press statement; but it may be relevant to this topic too. I suppose it depends on how much work had been placed with CML? . That could be a double hit for Hornby- as that press statement says, (and Ozexpatriate has just pointed out) a lot of CML's business is in diecast, including Corgi... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeofyork Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Another point is that Hornby often don't seem to finish the job properly. They've brought out excellent new HST power cars, but these are accompanied by the same old tired Mk3s. Also, the power cars now come without any coaches as part of the set - compared to, say, Bachmann's Voyager this doesn't look particularly good value. I agree with the point about liveries. This year they are bringing out an 87 in the obscure GBRF livery. Is there really the demand for this? Personally I'd like a Virgin one to go with the DVT they released fairly recently - I have a Lima Virgin one, but the shade of red doesn't match the DVT and I'd certainly be interested in an 87 which did match, and which had the various other improvements Hornby have introduced to the Lima model. It seems an odd decision to produce an obscure livery when they haven't produced one of the most popular liveries for that loco; one which the whole class carried for a number of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.