Ceptic Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Hi. I'm sure this topic has been raised many times before, by members more knowledgeable and eloquent than me, on the 'old' forum, and on other sites as well. Continuing my on-going wonderment as to why the inaccuracies of railway scenes are still inflicted on the public, in this day and age of CGI, when the clips of 'The Wrecker' show what was possible 80 odd years ago, I would like to ask.... Why is it, that so much effort is put into costume/historical/war time dramas, but not when a railway is involved ?. What's got me going here, is that the BBC's new 'Paradox' Tues. night series showed a 2x4-CEP unit, on a working from Manchester without any visible means of support, i.e. third rail,. Well I ask you ?? OK, rant over. Anyway. here's my favourite, fairly accurate choice. 'The (Le) Train' by John Frankenheimer, starring, amongst others. Burt Lancaster. Here's a link to a French colour newsreel, 'Section Contrale' report on the making of some of the film's scenes. Followed by Jack Warner in 'Train of Events, and, of course 'The Titfield Thunderbolt'. Please feel free to carry on where I left off. Any comments will be more than welcome. I'll get back to you after I've had a lie down,.. Phew !! Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Railway scenes in 'Heartbeat' are generally poor, which is odd, when you bear in mind a) the fanatical attention to detail in every other aspect, like makign sure they have the right cereal boxes and B) they are filmed on the NYMR, who you would think would be able to advise on an accurate portrayal. They very often have a 'Schools' on a local passenger service, for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I've even seen (in American movies) steam engines making diesel sounds and vice versa. I can't remember which movie it was but it was fairly recent. I'm a member of a heritage streetcar (tram) railway near Toronto. One of its streetcars was repainted and used very briefly at the beginning of Cinderella Man. As far as I know, its detail was done correctly for that movie (i.e. it was the correct type of streetcar for that time period, repainted into appropriate colours). Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I've even seen (in American movies) steam engines making diesel sounds and vice versa. I can't remember which movie it was but it was fairly recent. I'm a member of a heritage streetcar (tram) railway near Toronto. One of its streetcars was repainted and used very briefly at the beginning of Cinderella Man. As far as I know, its detail was done correctly for that movie (i.e. it was the correct type of streetcar for that time period, repainted into appropriate colours). Rob I suspect any group of enthusiasts, or of professionals with specialised knowledge of an activity (be it railways or safety procedures in chemical plants) notice this sort of thing when a film or TV production deals with their specialism. Mention is made of Heartbeat- even outside of the railway scenes, there is much that is inaccurate or improbable. The timeframe seems to wobble about all the time, as though the Improbability Drive hasn't bedded in properly, with cars which are too modern for rural Yorkshire in the mid/late 1960s mixing with a soundtrack that has much music which wouldn't have been heard unless Radio London's 'Perfumed Garden' had reached the area. Just remember- 'It's only Television, dear' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 one little niggle is the use of BR standards in war films/dramas. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 No disrespect to the NYMR, but if a Schools is the only steam loco available then they are hardly likely to shoot themselves in th foot and suggest they use the KWVR etc because they heve a working NE region loco. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 one little niggle is the use of BR standards in war films/dramas. Mike Like that one that was set in German held France (WW2) where they blew up an enemy munition which was hauled by a 9F on the Bluebell (name escapes me)? Thats quite a large niggle. I agree on Heartbeat. There was an episode that featured a 56XX and a 25 on collision course, both going at some pace and the 56xx is stopped before it derails. And don't get me started on where Monarch of the Glen went wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 It may matter to enthusiasts, but does it affect the audience, at least not in the opinion of Alfred Hitchcock, who was good at using special effects and train models in his films, but only took them so far, and utterly refuted complaints about pedantic accuracy, saying what were the complainants doing watching these obscure details instead of the film plot! He considered that if the complaints were legion for a particular film, then it was an indication the film was well below par, not to say boring! It is however quite amusing to watch Cary Grant steering a car in To Catch a Thief, where the steering wheel seems to be completely disconnected to the motion of the car.........Hitch fumed when this was mentioned, and retorted the viewer should have been watching Grace Kelly, not the steering wheel........ Accuracy cost money, it is not easy to book a particular loco of the right type, when anything will do for 90% of the the audience, so the use of the real thing is quite rare, and usually driven by an enthusiast director. Apart from that most directors don't give a toss.... Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted December 9, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2009 For a lot of movies, Hitch may be right. After we saw Mansfield Park a friend could only complain that the plumbing was too modern for the period. The problem is that the irritating detail catches your attention and nags. It's like major grammar errors in books, where you have to start thinking about what the writer was trying to say. What would be the reaction if they showed soccer being played with a pointy ball, or cricket with a tennis racket? I expect someone would notice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I recently got the DVD of 'Edge of Darkness', a drama/thriller series from the 80s. Never watched it at the time, but seeing as it keeps appearing in 'Best UK telly programs ever' lists I figured I'd better cough up ??6 and see what all the fuss is about. Only watched the first two episodes so far (so don't spoil it for me) but I got bit excited when a lovely ol' bit of BR blue trundled onto the screen in a nightshot, was proud of myself for spotting it was a Class 31 before it fully loomed out of the gloomy night... but then nearly spat me biscuit out when I saw they'd fitted red coupling rods to the wheels Quite extraordinary. No idea if this was meant to make it seem more futuristic (I can't believe it was meant to disguise it, I'm only half an anorak but I can still spot a 31 when I see one, so why bother?), but that must be a rare example of a production modifying a loco to make it appear more 'realistic'. Just remember- 'It's only Television, dear' Yup, I assume I'm not the only one who just gets that look from the other end of the sofa whenever they point out a train-related mistake in a telly program or film? It's a combination of 'What did I ever see in you/only you could have spotted that/get a life/does it really matter/why do you remember crap like this when you can't remember what I said to you yesterday' all rolled into one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Why is it, that so much effort is put into costume/historical/war time dramas. In my experience they're just as likely to have anachronisms in them and get the details wrong, even the quality productions. Of course Hollywood can manage this sort of thing without trying - 'The Battle of The Bulge' would have you believe that the Ardennes looks a lot like Southern Califiornia, even before you get started on the 1960s US tanks the Germans were driving... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Just remembered the Soviet CL 20 in Goldeneye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted December 9, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2009 With Heartbeat I always thought that the directors chose the loco out of the roster, so a big green loco with a name is more attractive than a plain old black loco. No similarities with any particular model maker (wink wink!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 An honourable mention for Morse, then. Context pieces shot at the real Oxford station, NSE liveied 50s and 119s, and with seemingly appropriate stock on those occasions where the cast need to catch the train. 'Up to London for the opera,' as often as not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 An honourable mention for Morse, then. Context pieces shot at the real Oxford station, NSE liveied 50s and 119s, and with seemingly appropriate stock on those occasions where the cast need to catch the train. 'Up to London for the opera,' as often as not. However, the series did give the impression that Oxfordshire had a higher murder rate than Baltimore or Cape Town.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Railway scenes in 'Heartbeat' are generally poor... They very often have a 'Schools' on a local passenger service, for example. Someone once said that railway scenes in Heartbeat were made on the "It's my TV programme..." principle. I recently got the DVD of 'Edge of Darkness', a drama/thriller series from the 80s. ...I got bit excited when a lovely ol' bit of BR blue trundled onto the screen in a nightshot, was proud of myself for spotting it was a Class 31 before it fully loomed out of the gloomy night... but then nearly spat me biscuit out when I saw they'd fitted red coupling rods to the wheels As I understand it, because the programme portrayed nuclear safety in a poor light, BR refused to allow them to use a real class 31. The loco in the film is a mockup body built over two 0-6-0 shunting locos, hence the coupling rods. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim49 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Someone once said that railway scenes in Heartbeat were made on the "It's my TV programme..." principle. As I understand it, because the programme portrayed nuclear safety in a poor light, BR refused to allow them to use a real class 31. The loco in the film is a mockup body built over two 0-6-0 shunting locos, hence the coupling rods. Paul Could this be Hornby's answer to the problems they have had with chassis failures on model 31s? All those Railroad 0-6-0 chassis have a new purpose. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 However, the series did give the impression that Oxfordshire had a higher murder rate than Baltimore or Cape Town.... Indeed it did, however, Midsomer has its own Mortuary Railway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted December 9, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2009 Just remembered the Soviet CL 20 in Goldfinger. Goldeneye not Goldfinger. However give them their due, there is a brief shot of the contol desk in that Sovietised 20 which if you freeze frame shows that all the controls and dials have been correctly relabelled in Russian!! There is a railway connection in Goldfinger though, Auric Goldfinger's model/map of Fort Knox has a railroad running across one side/corner of it although being actually shot in the UK, some of the stock briefly seen looks decidely Triangesque. Many a wartime and pre war drama has managed to been liberally sprinkled with Mk 1 coaching stock I have found with the exception of Poirot which has almost without exception been merticulous in their railway scenes, mostly through using the Bluebell Railway it would seem. There was one episode with Morden Underground Station though but at least they used the heritage 1930's liveried Tube Stock for the scene even if it was 1959 TS! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Goldeneye not Goldfinger. Shhhhh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 For a lot of movies, Hitch may be right. After we saw Mansfield Park a friend could only complain that the plumbing was too modern for the period. The problem is that the irritating detail catches your attention and nags. It's like major grammar errors in books, where you have to start thinking about what the writer was trying to say. What would be the reaction if they showed soccer being played with a pointy ball, or cricket with a tennis racket? I expect someone would notice. Yes, I agree -- good points and analogies! Being a history buff, I'm a stickler for detail. If there are too many errors in the film, it takes away from its credibility -- I lose interest and don't take the movie seriously. On the other hand, it's a balancing act and I think a few minor errors should be tolerated. My wife & I recently watched "Stone of Destiny." We really enjoyed it -- it was a great movie, even with a steam train scene in it! After it was over, I googled it on the web. I wanted to find out more about the movie, the train & other details. I found out that there were several "small" errors in it. The movie took place in the early-1950s. For example, there were some plaques or signs in the background inside Westminster Abbey that had "1998" or something similar on them. The birds-eye view of the train would never have been seen on the route that (the guys in the movie) would have taken. Several of the London scenes were filmed in Scotland -- and you see various landmarks from Glasgow in the background! Also, the steam train looked something like a 4MT hauling BR Maroon coaches -- I think that would have been accurate. Otherwise, I didn't clue into any of these other errors. We also own a copy of the BBC movie, "Station Jim." It's an excellent family movie, filmed at the Bluebell Line. It takes place in the 1890s on the GWR. You see Stepney a few times in this movie. My wife rolled her eyes when I pointed out that Stepney wouldn't have run on the GWR because Stepney was a "Southern" engine! I do think this is a balancing act -- allowing a few minor discrepancies to slip by while trying to prevent major ones. The trouble is, it's open to interpretation of what constitutes a major or minor error ! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Just remember- 'It's only Television, dear' Aaarrrrhhh !!! , It's 'im, !!! , ... Micheal Winner !!! Whatever you do,.. Don't let him near a railway movie. He'll probably have Charles Bronson (RIP) playing 'Casey Jones with a Death Wish VI' . Yup, I can remember those opening scenes of 'Edge of Darkness' with the shakey Cl.31?. The vision of two 08s covered in wobbly hardboard still grates. Another attempt to fool the railway buff, were the clips in the big budget film 'From Russia with love' where the Istanbul(l) to Venice sleeper is depicted, using shots of a Scot/Jubilee/Patriot/Black 5 hauling a train of lined Maroon Mk.1 stock tinted Green. An early attempt at Photoshopping, perhaps. One film that I don't have any views on(pun), is Von Ryan's Express', apart from Frank Sinatra playing an escaping POW, clad in WW2 German officer's uniform, commandeering an Italian troop? train. Any thoughts on the accuracy of the train itself, anyone ?. Regards, and thanks for your comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 One film that I don't have any views on(pun), is Von Ryan's Express', apart from Frank Sinatra playing an escaping POW, clad in WW2 German officer's uniform, commandeering an Italian troop? train. Any thoughts on the accuracy of the train itself, anyone ?. Regards, and thanks for your comments. In Von Ryan, he is in a POW train filled with Allies that he and a number of high ranked POWs take over. There is a B&W film that I caught part of that featured a German engine shed. A loco was been signalled through pointwork when a smoking pipe drops in the lever frame, prevents the lever coming right back and the loco derails. Anyone remember seeing such a thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Its The Train, which was mentioned in the OP. It is a very good film with some good attention to detail, eapecially the scene in the workshops where Burt Lancaster is remettaling a connecting rod bearing! cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 A related question. On my last night shift, I was having a brew with my former boss, who's now one of the Duty Managers. He's 'old railway', having started as a cleaner at Tonbridge Wells West, leaving the railway at the end of steam, then coming back as Guard's Inspector, Controller and ASM at Tonbridge, then Folkestone, before joining TML. He has a basic knowledge of signalling procedures, but doesn't know the minuatae of things like Bell Codes, and so was wondering if there was a bell code that covered eventualities like calling the police. He'd seen some film where a signalman was taken hostage in his box by someone who wanted to stop a particular train. As the captor didn't want to alert anyone, he allowed his captive to continue his shift, accepting and forwarding trains as normal. At some point, the signalman sent some sort of special bell code which alerted the neighbouring box, and thence the police. Has anyone any idea what this code might have been? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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