EBay madness

[MrWolf]

3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I do wonder if some of the "gougers" selling off spares at inflated prices prey on those unaware of retailers, or manufacturer suppliers of parts?  A friend of mine who is a very active modeller, adding details, kitbashing and so on commented once about the price of spare bodies on Tatbay, and I said "Have had a look on the Bachmann Spares website?".

"No" was the answer, he was unaware of the existence of the website.  And lo, said body was there for at least a tenner less than the Tatbay example.

I do sometimes buy spares off Tatbay if they are something unavailable elsewhere and not too badly priced but as always it's a case of caveat emptor.  For the sake of half an hour deep Googling you can sometimes get some good results.  Sadly too many people think "eBay=best price" and give the gougers a good business.

 

It doesn't always pay to go for the lowest price either. For instance I was looking around for Ratio GWR 4 wheel coaches for a conversion I have in mind.

What I found was people listing old "yellow box" kits from thirty years ago or more at round about the same price as the later box with the colour picture or the most recent Parkside by Peco versions, both of which have metal wheels, brass bearings and the moulds had been overhauled.

[wombatofludham]

Quiz time.

Is this listing (a) A Dapol Class 56 diesel (b) A Midland/LMS Compound (c) A Midland/LMS 2P (d) None of these

(For the avoidance of doubt I already know the answer...)

[wombatofludham]

I must admit I have bought off Gostude, and at prices that were compatible with the trending price for the items I bought.  Like any other dealer, you will, or should, only buy at the price, based on your experience or research, you consider fair.

One of my niche modelling interests is Ireland, mid 90s.  Murphy Models produced a range of stock, and I was a bit too slow in stocking up, so have had to turn to Tatbay to see what is available.  Sadly most of it is selling for well north of £100 for coaches and £250-300 plus for locos, second hand.  However, just last week I managed to fill the gaps in my rolling stock needs for a lot less than £100 per coach thanks to some judicious sniping on a batch being sold by a model shop.  It is still possible to get bargains via Tatbay.  However, seeing the still available "Hardwicke" being advertised at nearly £260 when the NRM have recently been selling them at £180, reduced from £220, is concerning especially as others have said, some newbies may not be aware the NRM have the model on sale cheaper.

Ultimately, like anything else on the internet, eBay can be a good thing or a playground for scammers.

[Swissrail]

14 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Quiz time.

Is this listing (a) A Dapol Class 56 diesel (b) A Midland/LMS Compound (c) A Midland/LMS 2P (d) None of these

(For the avoidance of doubt I already know the answer...)

Yes because everyone knows Class 56 diesels carry coal around as their fuel source!

[Sjcm]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Probably not unrealistic to say that most of us here are fairly experienced modellers who had either done their homework or have been around for so long that they've managed to absorb the basics, or both, and therefore have a fair working knowledge of what stuff is worth, and what it goes for (not the same things at all)  But put yourself in the position of a newbie trying to amass stock for a layout but not being able to afford everything you want brand new (or possibly something you want is not currently being produced).  A fairly frequent occurrence here is some variation of 'I'm a newbie on a limited budget, how can I acquire stuff without going over budget', and the standard advice is that there are plenty of perfectly workable and reasonably good quality models on eBay.

 

But you have to have an idea what you are doing, and eBay is equivalent to the Grimpen Mire on a foggy moonless night for a newbie.  Caveat Emptor of course, the first and most basic principle to be applied to the 2h market, but the skillsets and background knowledge needed to be safe on the Bay take some time to pick up, so what do you do in the meantime.  It's easy for me, I can spot a chiseller offer a mile off, like most of us here, and I've got a vague idea of market prices, though those are a moveable feast.  The Baccy 43xx referred to above was a bargain in the sense that the chassis, the bit I wanted, runs very smoothly indeed, but these locos do not command premium secondhand prices because of the reputation of the split chassis inherited from Mainline.  On this loco this has been retooled to get rid of the pancake motor and has a can with a worm and idler wheel drive, and I believe the split axles are different to Mainline's as well, so I should have a reliable mech for reasonable money, and if this is the case, it is a benefit of knowing what this chassis actually is and not being swayed by it's poisonous reputation.  A newbie might read here of my 'success' and end up with a Mainline dog chassis as a result of taking my advice, so my advice is to avoid the Bay until you've got some background knowledge.  Browse it frequently to get the feel, but, ffs, don't buy anything yet!

 

Caveat Emptor is rule 1 on eBay, but the real problem is the likes of Hatton's.  These twits (spelling error) present themselves as reputable dealers providing good value for money, and so they do with brand new stock.  But their secondhand chiselling is appalling, and unless you already have a good basic concept of what is worth buying and what should not be touched with a bargepole is a minefield of inconsistency and overcharging, and a pitfall for the unwary newbie who thinks that that Hatton's name carries a degree of quality and assurance with it; take it from us, when it comes to 2h, it does the opposite.  The company has been using the tired excuse for years that this part of their operation is in the hands of an inexperienced intern, which has been the case for long enough to expose itself as outright bullcarp!  I don't even waste my time looking any more, got better things to do.

 

So, no wonder people can be found who will willingly pay unreasonable prices for secondhand stuff that may well be rubbish.  They don't know any better, why should they, and are being taken advantage of.  The chisellers and eBay themselves are what my Irish mate would call 'cute hoors', canny enough to realise that there is a steady enough supply of hapless newbies and to have excuses such as Hatton's famous intern,  who must be not far off drawing his pension by now, to hand to fend off complaints.

 

Those of us who are lucky enough to know some of our way around this maze should not be surprised that there are those that do not, and criticising them will not make any difference at all to the situation because they don't read our stuff.  There are myths at work here, deeply embedded in society, subtle, and powerful, but not based on anything like fact or reality.  Myth one, railway models are expensive.  You meet people up the pub who saw a Hornby tinplate collection go for thousands on some tv show, or saw a full-fat DCC with sound loco in Antics window in town (how much!!!), and want me to tell them how much their battered HD Duchess of Montrose 3-rail set in the attic is worth, and then accuse me of profiteering when I tell them even when I haven't made an offer.  Then they get miffed when I don't make an offer because I have no interest in the thing even if it was mint unboxed.

 

Myth two, you can get a bargain on eBay if you're a buyer, and realise amazing cash if you're a seller.   No, you can't.  If something's too good to be true, it means it's not true, not that it's good.  If you are lucky, you can pick up an item that you want that is not available from any other source for a reasonable and fair price on eBay, but there are no bargains, not for more than about ten seconds anyway.  Similarly, you can make money by buying stuff and selling it on eBay, but its not money for nothing, and the profits may not be all that attractive when you factor in a cost for your time, work, and other overheads such as storage.  The much-maligned (justifiably) mendacious chiseller Gostude must put in a considerable amount of time listing his stuff, most of which probably never gets sold so I can only assume he has some sort of barn that is costing him nothing to keep it all in.  eBay sucks your time and is only reasonable at best, and at worst it is all too easy to pay over the odds for rubbish, or to be trapped into acquiring rubbish with the intention of selling it profitably.

 

Myth three, possibly the most dangerous and pernicious of all, anybody involved in buying and selling stuff as an independent trader is a clever businessman who knows what he's doing and is to be admired for his enterprise.  To which I can only say, 'this time next year, we'll all be millionaires, Rodney'.  The trouble here is that those involved often believe the myth, and may well know somebody with genuine business acumen who is making a tidy living out of it, as after all attempting such activity demands a degree of self-belief, and self-belief is arrogance unless it is justified by proven results, which it usually isn't.  The Gostudes of this world try to baffle us with smoke and mirrors in order to compensate for some deep inferiority complex or other disastrous personality trait which may not be their fault (remember what Larkin said about parents), but are just as deluded by said smoke and mirrors themselves.  Does he really think that everything is kit-built or does that just sound like good sales technique to him?  He's probably in so deep he couldn't truthfully tell you himself any more, consistent and persistent lying will do that to you.  It is claimed that the easiest people to con are themselves con artists, and one can see why.  Gostude is as least as much a victim as those he chisels, remember that, but don't feel sorry for the 'stard! 

 

He's clearly incompetent, but has got some cash to spend; the people he buys off can see him coming and rinse him good, so he tries to pass the cost on his customers (this is probably the reason for the high pricing, he doesn't know what the stuff is worth and simply adds a percentage markup and keeps his fingers crossed, brilliant business model), always the first resort of the failing businessman, and in the meantime his stock rots in his barn.  He thinks he's doing well, cruising around the country lanes in one of his classic sports cars, and on the face of it he's doing better than me with my bus pass, but I know what I've got and what it's worth, and he's a deluded fool, not capable of supporting himself when the money runs out.  His stock, which could perform useful work on layouts, will be ploughed under.

 

Easy to criticise newbies who get suckered into buying rubbish on eBay from our high moral experienced vantage point, but it does nothing to change the situation and we ought to be helping them if we can.  This thread goes some way to achieving this by pointing out the worst excuses of Gostude and his ilk, Rocket, and Hattons though Hattons could do with a madness thread of their own.  But, at least IMHO, telling them that it's their affair and caveat emptor, while indubitably true, does nothing constructive for anyone.  We can only help as much as we can, and try not to get too disturbed by eBay Madness.  Remember how much you knew when you started out?

Good points there, but let's not forget what drives the chiselling on EBay is the biggest chissellers of all, the manufacturers. A top of the range  Hornby A4 in 1985 would cost you 40 pounds, or adjusted for inflation that's 114-ish. 200 for a railroad A4 now (same model?). Okay you can probably pick it up cheaper but the same applied in 1985. The top of the range A4 is north of 300. Ah but you're paying for the breathe-on-it and it falls off detailing and better mechanism, but what happened to the costs savings from production abroad, computer design etc..?In their pockets methinks.

 

So if you're not got a gold plated pension, or a top salary with lots of spare cash, and you just want a loco that looks like a A4 and don't care about DCC then 200 gets you 4+ A4's or the A4 with other locos and the track, controller and rolling stock in a joblot. 300 would get you probably enough stock to keep you happy for a few years. And Youtubers like 00bill and Oscar paisley have shown its quite possible to get the old stuff running well with a bit of care if you're not a rivet counter. The alternative is start at the bottom new with a 0-4-0 and a loop for 100 pounds and then possibly buy a 40 pound coach every few months 😂 Or get a cheap DCC controller and a jinty for the same money off Ebay if you must have it.. So the chissellers exist because they've seen people are quite happy with the old stuff vs the price of new stuff and have taken advantage of the demand for it - simple supply and demand. I don't want the likes of Hornby to go to the wall but if the collectors start to die off and things get worse economy wise I'd definitely be suppressing a smirk if they got into trouble and let's face it the likes of  gostude will probably have to raise theirs prices to make some of the new stuff look a bargain.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Sjcm said:

Ah but you're paying for the breathe-on-it and it falls off detailing and better mechanism, but what happened to the costs savings from production abroad, computer design etc..?In their pockets methinks.

Hmm.  You are paying £300+ for full-fat DCC with sound for the top-of-the range A4, or £200 for the Railroad, which is not the same tooling as the 1985 model, it’s a bit improved over that with loco drive and a ‘DCC-ready’ mech, not the pancake motor traction tyre tender drive of the £40 1985 model.  Which would not be viable in the current market anyway, as nobody will buy a new model of that standard; it would be laughed off the market!  Trust me, if there were money to be made out of such an idea, someone would be making it, and the fact that nobody is making it tells you all you need to know; we want full-detail hi-spec models and we are actually happy to pay the asking prices for them irregardless (thank you for that, Donald) of the howls of complaint and accusations of chiselling on sites like this one…
 

Details falling off seems to be a specifically Hornby curse, as none of my locos from ‘another big established company’ suffer from it.  It is, I think, a result of H not specifying a sufficiently effective QC from the Chinese factories, but that’s only my opinion, and we are not party to the facts on this matter; it’s commercially sensitive information and none of our business.  And a new model has the advantage of a warranty, which has to be worth something expressible as a cash value.  Hornby et al  have to cover their costs and pay their investors a fair profit or go under; it’s called capitalism and I don’t like it much, but it’s the only game in town right now.  So new models cost what they cost, and buying them is a choice, not compulsory.  
 

The cost savings from production abroad have gone into the pockets of Chinese factory workers, who a quarter-century ago were happy with a Flying Pigeon bicycle but who, not unreasonably, have concluded that we were exploiting them for their cheap labour costs and now demand nice things, new cars, and two holidays a year, for which they work hard and which they rightly deserve.  How much do you think your full-fat A4, or even the Railroad version, would cost if it were made in Margate, and do you think it would be value for money?

 

Thought not. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by The Johnster

[MrWolf]

Chance of a new car made from Bacofoil or not, I don't think that you would really want to be a working class Chinese citizen at any price. It's not and never has been the worker's paradise as claimed comrade.

The students you see over here are the children of wealthy party members.

[Nick C]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234968608343

 

Almost double the RRP, and well over double what the usual retailers are asking for the same set...

[MrWolf]

1 minute ago, Nick C said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234968608343

 

Almost double the RRP, and well over double what the usual retailers are asking for the same set...

 

Ouch. Even individually purchased I don't think that you would spend that much?

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

Ouch. Even individually purchased I don't think that you would spend that much?

Current RRPs are £150 for a Terrier (but plenty of places still selling various liveries under £100) and £36 per coach, so <£258 for an equivalent train...

[NHY 581]

Yes, that is conduct worthy of Dick Turpin. 

[MrWolf]

4 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Yes, that is conduct worthy of Dick Turpin. 

 

With absolutely none of the panache...

[Sjcm]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Hmm.  You are paying £300+ for full-fat DCC with sound for the top-of-the range A4, or £200 for the Railroad, which is not the same tooling as the 1985 model, it’s a bit improved over that with loco drive and a ‘DCC-ready’ mech, not the pancake motor traction tyre tender drive of the £40 1985 model.  Which would not be viable in the current market anyway, as nobody will buy a new model of that standard; it would be laughed off the market!  Trust me, if there were money to be made out of such an idea, someone would be making it, and the fact that nobody is making it tells you all you need to know; we want full-detail hi-spec models and we are actually happy to pay the asking prices for them irregardless (thank you for that, Donald) of the howls of complaint and accusations of chiselling on sites like this one…
 

Details falling off seems to be a specifically Hornby curse, as none of my locos from ‘another big established company’ suffer from it.  It is, I think, a result of H not specifying a sufficiently effective QC from the Chinese factories, but that’s only my opinion, and we are not party to the facts on this matter; it’s commercially sensitive information and none of our business.  And a new model has the advantage of a warranty, which has to be worth something expressible as a cash value.  Hornby et al  have to cover their costs and pay their investors a fair profit or go under; it’s called capitalism and I don’t like it much, but it’s the only game in town right now.  So new models cost what they cost, and buying them is a choice, not compulsory.  
 

The cost savings from production abroad have gone into the pockets of Chinese factory workers, who a quarter-century ago were happy with a Flying Pigeon bicycle but who, not unreasonably, have concluded that we were exploiting them for their cheap labour costs and now demand nice things, new cars, and two holidays a year, for which they work hard and which they rightly deserve.  How much do you think your full-fat A4, or even the Railroad version, would cost if it were made in Margate, and do you think it would be value for money?

 

Thought not. 

Well I think you and others are happy to pay the prices, but many are unable or unwilling or pay them as the prices show on ebay, and are quite happy with compromises of a tender driven A4 with less detail. or a Hornby Dublo A4 even given the price difference. 

 

Besides you know what you're getting. I don't buy new locos and wouldn't but I do watch the reviews and the amount of top whack models that arrive broken, are poorly put together, bent rods, wheels out of gauge, have glue marks on them, can't crawl better than a 50's triang, have duff motors, can't pull the skin off a rice pudding or some inherent design flaw usually with the front bogies is staggering. For that sort money to me it's unacceptable, but you pay your money and take your choice and look at the detail😉

 

I don't mind them making a good profit but presumably that was the idea in 1985 as well and if they made it on 40 pounds and made it 15 years later in 2000 for 80 pounds, you wonder where the extra 120 pounds  in costs have come from since

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sjcm

[MrWolf]

Don't bother wasting your time on that one (Although I entirely agree with you.) you'll get accused of "having a beef with X manufacturer" and if you persist you'll be threatened with the naughty step whilst asked to "think about how that could be offensive". 

Perhaps I was over reacting, expecting to get what's paid for?

But what do I know, I only went trouble shooting engineering related production issues worldwide for a couple of decades?

[Nick C]

21 minutes ago, Sjcm said:

I don't mind them making a good profit but presumably that was the idea in 1985 as well and if they made it on 40 pounds and made it 15 years later in 2000 for 80 pounds, you wonder where the extra 120 pounds  in costs have come from since

Chinese workers wanting to get paid properly? Massive increases in shipping costs? Material costs?

 

I do agree that they should work properly out of the box though - although maybe I've been lucky, but I've not yet had to send a loco back. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234968608343

 

Almost double the RRP, and well over double what the usual retailers are asking for the same set...

... and he hasn't sold it at that price yet.

No harm in trying your luck though.

[MrWolf]

Having spent quite a bit of time in countries that are on nobody's gap year bucket list, I'm very much for workers receiving a fair wage for a day's work. The poverty gap in many places is unimaginable. It makes me almost despair when I hear people saying that they're skint (all relevant I know) when the clothes on their back and the phone in their hands comes to four figures.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by MrWolf
Stupid autocorrect

[Michael Hodgson]

58 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Yes, that is conduct worthy of Dick Turpin. 

Or Carry on Dick.

[Sjcm]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Don't bother wasting your time on that one (Although I entirely agree with you.) you'll get accused of "having a beef with X manufacturer" and if you persist you'll be threatened with the naughty step whilst asked to "think about how that could be offensive". 

Perhaps I was over reacting, expecting to get what's paid for?

But what do I know, I only went trouble shooting engineering related production issues worldwide for a couple of decades?

Yeah I wasn't really having a pop solely at Hornby. Their price list from the past were just easier to find😉 As regards bad quality or bad design in new models that covers many manufacturers and while you can give the newer, smaller makers some leeway, the likes of Hornby and Bachmann doing it seems a bit....off

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sjcm

[Sjcm]

47 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Chinese workers wanting to get paid properly? Massive increases in shipping costs? Material costs?

 

I do agree that they should work properly out of the box though - although maybe I've been lucky, but I've not yet had to send a loco back. 

But those costs (materials or wage increases) would be included in the inflation figures for either China or the UK and I don't think China has suffered galloping inflation looking at the figures. I realise there is niche costs that rise more than the overall figures but still.

[kevinlms]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

... and he hasn't sold it at that price yet.

No harm in trying your luck though.

Which IMO is the whole point, if it's over priced it isn't going to sell. The advertised price is only an offer to sell, no one is forced to pay it.

[MrWolf]

Very true, if something is overpriced, it's just going to sit there until either:

. The seller lowers the price.

. The seller accepts an offer via message.

. Suddenly there is a shortage / change in fashion / big up article in a magazine at which point, a silly b*****d will pay the silly price. At which point, it stops being a silly price and becomes the new benchmark.

 

When I spoke of Silly B*******s the other day, I wasn't talking about newbies, I was talking about people who have been in the hobby for decades who have plenty of money and nothing else going on in their lives.

[Bucoops]

26 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Very true, if something is overpriced, it's just going to sit there until either:

. The seller lowers the price.

. The seller accepts an offer via message.

. Suddenly there is a shortage / change in fashion / big up article in a magazine at which point, a silly b*****d will pay the silly price. At which point, it stops being a silly price and becomes the new benchmark.

 

When I spoke of Silly B*******s the other day, I wasn't talking about newbies, I was talking about people who have been in the hobby for decades who have plenty of money and nothing else going on in their lives.

 

You missed off the seller eventually dies of (hopefully) natural causes and the person stuck with sorting it out gets a skip.

[MrWolf]

5 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

You missed off the seller eventually dies of (hopefully) natural causes and the person stuck with sorting it out gets a skip.

 

I take it that you have, as I have, come across many a classic car or motorcycle simply rotting away to nothing?

 

But the owner says that there's this bloke down the pub says he's seen one fetch ten grand and this one is a year older and it was mechanically perfect when it was parked up in 1965....

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

I take it that you have, as I have, come across many a classic car or motorcycle simply rotting away to nothing?

 

But the owner says that there's this bloke down the pub says he's seen one fetch ten grand and this one is a year older and it was mechanically perfect when it was parked up in 1965....

 

I own one 😏 I last saw it over ten years ago when I sent it to Bristol to be in a queue for professional restoration.

 

I'm guessing it's a very LONG queue.