floss_4 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Are you saying that applies to road transport in the South West or rail transport to South Wales? either way it contradicts what "Brush type 4" is saying.... I was refering to rail transport in the south west. "Brush type 4"s suggestion was that supermarket traffic would not be viable without a return load but I wanted to highlight the fact that the flows that do operate successfully (clay,cement,scrap etc) are all one way loaded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted February 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2012 I was refering to rail transport in the south west. "Brush type 4"s suggestion was that supermarket traffic would not be viable without a return load but I wanted to highlight the fact that the flows that do operate successfully (clay,cement,scrap etc) are all one way loaded. I agree - what do the existing lorries convey when they return from Truro, Plymouth, Exeter etc, back up the M5? I would also be cautious about saying that the Wentloog traffic 'doesn't wash it's face'. Does the poster who claims this have specific information to this effect? Why else would DRS take the traffic? As I understand it, there were long and hard negotiations before Tesco were happy with the deal, but a deal there is and it must be financially sound in order for it to proceed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I agree - what do the existing lorries convey when they return from Truro, Plymouth, Exeter etc, back up the M5? I would also be cautious about saying that the Wentloog traffic 'doesn't wash it's face'. Does the poster who claims this have specific information to this effect? Why else would DRS take the traffic? As I understand it, there were long and hard negotiations before Tesco were happy with the deal, but a deal there is and it must be financially sound in order for it to proceed. Tesco trucks return with near nothing apart from internal movements. Yes. DRS are getting paid, so why wouldn't they take the traffic? The gap as it is is within Tesco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Does the poster who claims this have specific information to this effect? I'd like to confirm that BrushType4 is a friend of mine and he does know what he is talking about (and knows more than most about this subject). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted February 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2012 DRS are getting paid, so why wouldn't they take the traffic? The gap as it is is within Tesco. Certainly DRA wouldn't take the traffic if they weren't getting paid, but why would Tesco pay them if it wasn't economic (other incentives notwithstanding)? Perhaps you wouldn't mind elaborating on what you say about the gap being 'within Tesco'. I'd like to confirm that BrushType4 is a friend of mine and he does know what he is talking about (and knows more than most about this subject). Interesting. I'd be happy to exchange PMs with BrushType4, as a rail industry person myself and who is pretty close to freight operations in a professional sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Who are these food producers? Rodda's, Ginsters(*), Ambrosia would be some well known names to kick off with that i'd expect to find in most stores countrywide... (*Yeah I know, calling them a food producer is a stretch at times, but hey...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Rodda's, Ginsters(*), Ambrosia would be some well known names to kick off with that i'd expect to find in most stores countrywide... (*Yeah I know, calling them a food producer is a stretch at times, but hey...) I visited Ambrosia at Lifton with them in mind, but for several reasons it won't work with them and in fairness there is not that much custard that gets supplied to the Tesco depot at the other end of the train. The others you mention are very small in terms of running a enough return traffic and need reefers. Though possible, reduces flexiblilty, and increases cost. Multi nodel depots as per the speedlink model just don't work economically just now. But with rising fuel costs, and other vehicle costs increasing it may do in the future. I've been thinking it was soon for a few years now... Tesco have a will and that's why they have as many routes as they do, but it's not easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2012 Rodda's, Ginsters(*), Ambrosia would be some well known names to kick off with that i'd expect to find in most stores countrywide... (*Yeah I know, calling them a food producer is a stretch at times, but hey...) You can add into that several larger companies that supply "own brand" foods or cheap versions. These include Tulip foods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 25, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2012 Rodda's, Ginsters(*), Ambrosia would be some well known names to kick off with that i'd expect to find in most stores countrywide... (*Yeah I know, calling them a food producer is a stretch at times, but hey...) It's easy when they're selling stuff 'up country' - round here lots of folk even think that pasties should contain carrot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The Wentloog turn started running this morning i'm told... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The Wentloog turn started running this morning i'm told... It did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's easy when they're selling stuff 'up country' Reckon youre in the wrong job. The retailers need you to run their supply chain as obviously they don't have your expertise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2012 Reckon youre in the wrong job. The retailers need you to run their supply chain as obviously they don't have your expertise. Perhaps you should have read the context a little more carefully *see below (And for your information several large companies were more than happy with the part I played in running their supply chain but moving stuff in multiples of 100s or 1000s of tons at a time fitted into carefully matched unloading and stock clearance cycles was just another part of everyday railway work for some of us. So yes, I did indeed happen to have some expertise in that respect and still do as it happens. But I'm certainly not 'in the wrong job' as I'm now - more or less - retired but I'm still happy to proffer advice, based on considerable experience in bulk traffic movement, should you need it). * If you look at the context you will see that it refers to the selling of what Ginsters 'pasties' outside Cornwall - hence the reference to carrot (which is seemingly what some people think should be in a pasty - not that Ginsters put it in). Maybe my reference shouldn't have been so subtle but it would seem someone understood it perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Perhaps you should have read the context a little more carefully Perhaps, but I said it was hard to run trains with retail traffic, meaning economically, but you was said it was easy. Confusion crept in as I didn't get the joke aspect/context? There just isn't enough supplier volume in the southwest to justify trains over road for dedicated trains for retailers. I've worked with rail providers at the highest levels and there is not enough fat to make if work. If there was, trains would be commissioned tomorrow. On a lighter note, I think Ginsters are quite tasty, but I did avoid the factory visit when I was at Lifton so I didn't see how they made them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon47603 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Morning Gents, Having worked for Tesco Magor, as an Agency Driver and for a Major South Haulier providing the Depot, with day to day Traction, I think I can be of some help regarding Tesco's operations in South Wales and the South West of England. 1. All Inter-Depot Trunking is done by Stobart Double Decker Trailers. (Tesco's are a Major Shareholder of Stobart's, by the way.) 2. Two Double Decker Trailers will replace three normal trailers. 3. Magor has two Depots, the Main Depot and the Trunking Station. Where all incoming Inter-Depot Trunking is sent to. 4. When you pick up your paper work, it will say where the load was picked, so some of the cages for any particular store may well have been made up at any Tesco Depot in the UK and then sent to that stores nearest Depot, for final delivery. 5. When you see a Tesco Lorry heading back to Magor, It will be full of empty cages. 65 is a full load. 6. Tesco's Chilled and Frozen Food Depot in Avonmouth, does not pick up empty cages, as it returns waste food/packaging back to Avonmouth for proper disposal. 7. The Supermarket stores generally have anything from 50 to 200+ cages waiting to be collected on any given day. 8. Some stores can have a delivery every 4 hours. Whether that is Dry, Chilled, Frozen or a white goods delivery. Whilst that dosen't include Milk or bread deliveries. At Christmas time a busy store may have a delivery every hour!! 9. Tesco do use Samworth Brothers, the Ginsters people to make deliveries to the South West, when you see them heading back down the M5, They are loaded for Tesco's Stores. They also use Fowler Welch to do the same. 10. The chances of a Tesco's Express service from Magor to the Suuth West are better than average. As Tesco Drivers struggle to get back from Cornwall in their hours, especially in the summer. 11. Tesco do use their Trucks to collect stock from suppliers, however this a small number. Also depends on how busy Magor is. 12. The problem Tesco have is that they do not have enough Trucks,Trailers or Men to keep up with demand when busy. You are frequently waiting for either a Truck, Trailer or both. 13. When Stock arrives it is usually only in the warehouse for twenty four hours before it is sent to a store. 14. Just to give you an idea of how big an operation we are talking about, when Tesco order Baked Beans from Heinz or Toilet roll from Georgia Pacific. They will receive 4 to 5 trucks a day. Every day. And thats just for one Depot. 15. Finally, it does'nt matter, how late you are leaving the Depot to make deliveries, all Tesco are concerned with, is that you arrive at the stores safely, without incident. No matter how late you think or know you are, their is no need to rush. Thats why you are always stuck behind a Tesco lorry doing 40mph!!. The drivers are under NO pressure at all. To make up time. Safety is everything. Tesco's were talking to Tata about putting a Railhead in to Llanwern. Dont know the outcome to this yet. So I hope you will find this helpfull. Sorry I did not finish this piece this morning, but I did drive to Liverpool and back last night, from South Wales, I was abit tired this morning! Best wishes Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 29, 2012 Perhaps, but I said it was hard to run trains with retail traffic, meaning economically, but you was said it was easy. Confusion crept in as I didn't get the joke aspect/context? You definitely didn't Look at the original context against the quote - the inference was that it's easy to sell Ginsters up country (because the vast majority of people up here here aren't familiar with really good pasties and think Ginsters are 'the real thing' - which alas they no longer are, especially since they moved to their larger factory. Hence too my more recent comment about carrot where there tends to be a similar lack of understanding the further you get from Cornwall. There just isn't enough supplier volume in the southwest to justify trains over road for dedicated trains for retailers. I've worked with rail providers at the highest levels and there is not enough fat to make if work. If there was, trains would be commissioned tomorrow. That I wouldn't know - and hence have never commented on. After many years involvement with it I know full well about the advantages/disadvantages and costs of rail operation, including freight operation, so I can quite understand the situation regarding the economics of backload working for road hauliers. As it happens I'm old enough to remember the subsequent impact of taking off C Licence restrictions on own vehicle operations and how that impacted on railway freight rates and traffic in the smaller consignment area and that effect obviously continues today, albeit in a different way because it is now an established norm in road fleet operation. On a lighter note, I think Ginsters are quite tasty, but I did avoid the factory visit when I was at Lifton so I didn't see how they made them. That's the clever bit in their marketing - they are indeed quite tasty but always remember not to confuse them with a proper job pasty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 As there seems to be quite a bit of inside knowledge/expertise here with regards to Tesco/Stobart rail operations I'd be interested to know how and why certain contracts are awarded. As most are aware there was a fairly high profile transfer away from DRS to DB Schenker a couple of years ago which seems to now have been reversed with the exception of the Daventry-Mossend service which remains with DBS (presumably the enviromentally-friendly electric haulage counting for something here). The much-publicised international reefer service from Spain started by DBS at the same time is, I believe, now run by Europorte. I'm guessing that a company with the clout of Tesco plays its transport providers off each other in much the same way as it does with other suppliers hence its current use of at least three different FOCs in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I think you'll find that it's Stobart who decide which rail haulier to use, rather than Tesco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60026to Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I think you'll find that it's Stobart who decide which rail haulier to use, rather than Tesco. Either that or theres lots of 'back- handers' flying about. Not that I'm privvy to that sort of thing but it seems too happens everywhere else Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 That's the clever bit in their marketing - they are indeed quite tasty but always remember not to confuse them with a proper job pasty Definately not the same thing - unless you're the EU. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I would almost pay to see a class 66 in a 'ginster's pasty' livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon47603 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I think you'll find that it's Stobart who decide which rail haulier to use, rather than Tesco. Hi Brian,Tesco are major shareholders in Stobarts, some say they have a 45% share, others say they have 60% plus. When Tesco's say Jump, Stobarts say "How High". At Asda RDC's.Their is always nashing of teeth when they see their depot, full of Stobart/Tesco lorries. This is an advantage, because a couple of times when I've been delivering to Asda, I always seem to jump ahead of them, when waiting to be tipped! Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Brian, Tesco are major shareholders in Stobarts, some say they have a 45% share, others say they have 60% plus. When Tesco's say Jump, Stobarts say "How High". At Asda RDC's.Their is always nashing of teeth when they see their depot, full of Stobart/Tesco lorries. This is an advantage, because a couple of times when I've been delivering to Asda, I always seem to jump ahead of them, when waiting to be tipped! Simon I think you mean invesco, not Tesco. Sounds similar and I can see how the rumour machine has twisted it but Tesco are not a major shareholder though it's possible the Tesco pension company have invested in this company as they would have in many others for the benefit of the staff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon47603 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I dont want to get into any arguments. Had enough of that over Margam Shed!! But Tesco own a large chain of smallish supermarkets. You wont see them on Tesco's UK Balance sheet either as it is a completly seperate company. Even though you will see Tesco Lorries making deliveries to them! But when you are told by Tesco Management and Staff and also E-S drivers, that the big Green Trucks sitting outside the office window are really theirs, who am I to argue with that. The rest of the UK Road haulage Companies also know this. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushType4 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I dont want to get into any arguments. Had enough of that over Margam Shed!! But Tesco own a large chain of smallish supermarkets. You wont see them on Tesco's UK Balance sheet either as it is a completly seperate company. Even though you will see Tesco Lorries making deliveries to them! But when you are told by Tesco Management and Staff and also E-S drivers, that the big Green Trucks sitting outside the office window are really theirs, who am I to argue with that. The rest of the UK Road haulage Companies also know this. Simon It is just talk and hearsay Simon, the biggest shareholder is not Tesco, it is Invesco at 36.51%. As I say Tesco may have an interest in the Stobart Group but it is not a large amount and likely to be less than 1%. See below major share break down. Brothers-in-law Andrew Tinkler and William Stobart hold 8.18% and 3.77% respectively of the Stobart Group as of May 2011. Allan Jenkinson holds 4.9% of the company, the Irlam family hold 2.88% of the company and Steve O'Connor holds a further just under 3% of the company as of May 2011. The largest overall shareholder is now the investment management company Invesco who now holds 36.51% of the Stobart Group as of May 2011. Some Store facts As of 26 February 2011, at the end of its 2010/11 financial year, Tesco's UK store portfolio was as follows. 2,815 stores including One Stop and Dobbies, that's  3,411,586 square metres or 36,722,000 square feet, not bad for a chain of smallish supermarkets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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