edcayton Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have a Limby class 121 "bubble car". There several shots of these in Cornwall coupled to half a twin-car unit . My question is in two parts Is the half unit likely to be powered or un-powered? Are the units working in multiple, or is one towing the other? As I understand it these units were intended to pull trailers, but in practice were not powerful enough. Can I legitimatly hang something on behind the 121, and if so what? Thanks Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmustu Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Along with the class 121 units, there were a number of class 121 driving trailer cars built to increase capacity on some lines at peak times for minimal cost. The driving trailer cars were basically an unpowered DMS vehicle, and looked like a class 117 DMS car, but without engines and all the bits that go with them. IIRC, these trailers were pretty much only found around the thames valley area, where as the bubble cars could be found further and wider. Class 121s would always be run 'in multiple' with any other compatiable dmu vehicle, weather that vehicle was powered or not, obviously if the extra vehicle was not powered, it would be pushed one way, pulled the other. Class 121s are powerfull enough to run with an unpowered vehicle. You can run your 121 with any other 'blue square' dmu, classes 100 to 128. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi Ed The 121s were very versatile and were often used to substitute for single-ended power cars within sets - there are lots of examples in Brian Morrison's DMU album, including iircc a five car set made up of 121+121+117 trailer+121+121. They were perfectly capable of lugging around the driving trailers that were designed to work with them on levelish track - they were fine, if slow off the mark, on the Thames Valley branches, and you used to be able to get regular mainline trips in the 80s in a 121+trailer set on the Saturday Cherwell Valley locals between Banbury and Didcot. The balancing speed was about 50mph, so pretty sluggish - a non-stop Oxford-Didcot run used to take just under 20 mins (ie a good 5 mins slower than a 117). I'm sure that they could have taken a trailer up some of the steeper WR branch lines, but they might have had to stay in 3rd or even 2nd gear, so I suspect this is why they weren't ever seen slogging up to, say, Gunnislake in this formation. Hope this helps, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2012 A Class 121 power car (SPC) could work with a DET (Drive End Trailer) over most of the WR but if that was the case it would not then be permitted to take any tail traffic on steeper gradients. I think that in practice the SPC+DET combination might have been found a bit lacking in oomph on the steeply graded lines leading to local operators avoiding the practice if they could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks for those. So could/would they have towed ordinary coaches, parcels vans or goods vans? I don't recall seeing a photo of this. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 10 driving trailers were built to work with the 121 power cars, as indeed 9 were built to work with 122 power cars. I would say that the "half a twin" was more likely to be a driving trailer than a power car, though it was not unknown for 121s and 122s to substitute for faulty power cars in other sets. As time went on it was more likely for the 121 and 122 trailers to be marshalled with 3-coach sets of classes 116/117/118. This was especially common in the London division. A well-known pic by Brian Haresnape shows a driving trailer attached to a 118 3-car set at Plymouth in April 1962. A report in the good old Railway Observer refers to a 122 power car and trailer coupled to two cars of a 3-car 116 sets working off Tyseley. I have also seen a pic of a 121 power car hauling a parcels van and another working in multiple with a 128 parcels car. Anything goes! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The 1986 WR Loads for Passenger Parcels Newspaper and Motorail Trains has info on tail traffic. 1 power car could haul 1 trailer or tail traffic with max gradient less than 1 in 50 2 power cars could haul 2 trailers/tail with max gradient less than 1 in 50 or 1 if greater than 1 in 50. 3 power cars could haul 3 trailers/tail with max gradient less than 1 in 50 or 2 if greater than 1 in 50 4 power cars could haul 4 trailers/tail with max gradient less than 1 in 50 or 2 if greater than 1 in 50 5 power cars could haul 5 trailers/tail with max gradient less than 1 in 50 or 3 if greater than 1 in 50 6 power cars could haul 6 trailers/tail with max gradient less than 1 in 50 or 3 if greater than 1 in 50. There were restrictions for each engine isolated 1 tail traffic had to go, except between Padd and Banbury via Didcot where 2 power cars could take 2 trailers provided not more than one engine was out. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think that in practice the SPC+DET combination might have been found a bit lacking in oomph on the steeply graded lines leading to local operators avoiding the practice if they could. First instinct is to suggest that a 121 plus DET would have no different a power/weight ratio to a 'normal' DMU power/trailer combo, but those would be short frame, hence a bit lighter overall. I do have in my mind's eye a pic at Okehampton in the last days of passenger service, with 2 x 121s coupled together, I do STR the Looe branch having a DET into the mid 70s though, I think it was sat at Liskeard when I travelled the branch in 1975 (on a 119 or 120 power twin, I forget which but I have a pic of it) So could/would they have towed ordinary coaches, parcels vans or goods vans? I don't recall seeing a photo of this. Neither do I OTTOMH but I'd be surprised if it never happened (certainly vans or 4w NPCCS, not so much coaches); absence of any pics may be as much due to withdrawal of runrounds etc from the branches in question as anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2012 I might have mentioned it before but I recall several trips in the West Country with 'interesting' tail traffic in the early 1960s. The slowest was one from Par - Newquay on a 3car set with two loaded Conflats as the tail traffic; the crawl up Luxulyan Bank was probably far from enjoyable for the Driver and we lost more than 15 minutes in running to Newquay. The other was also on a 3 car set (Cross Country variety thereof) on the Kingswear branch which shunted at Churston to attach a loaded Conflat from the up side dock - on a Bank Holiday Monday when jam packed with passengers and losing time hand over fist in the process but not suffering at all from the extra load. The original WR tail loads for dmmus were expressed in tons and the 'standard' was based on power cars with 2x 150hp BUT engines; a different allowance was given for the Parcels cars with their 2 x 230hp engines. The standard allowances were 35 tons for a single power car or a 3 car set which included one trailer or a 3 car set marshalled with a power car and drive end trailer. 70 tons was allowed for 2 x 3 car sets - each including one trailer - coupled together, and 105 tons was allowed for 3 x 3 car sets coupled, again including trailers in the usual 3 car set type of formation. All of these figures were for gradients no steeper than 1 in 50 and the load was reduced, or tail traffic prohibited, if engines were isolated (as was not uncommon). A single power car plus a trailer was not permitted to take any tail traffic except where specially authorised and tail traffic was only permitted with any dmu when specially authorised if the gradient was steeper than 1 in 50. The parcels cars were allowed up to 64 tons of tail traffic (including the weight of whatever was loaded in the tail vehicles!) on a maximum rising gradient of 1 in 40. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 A couple of phots at Paddington in the early 1980s 55023,55269 16 May 1981 55020,L289 15 May 1982 A similar setup is occasionally used on the East Lancs Railway Bury 17 October 2009 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If the concern was power to weight ratio, then where would that leave things such as the London area 4x car Pressed Steel set i.e. a 3x car Pressed steel with the added Metro-Cammell trailer, which was used on excursions as well on summer weekends. ? . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 'Power to weight ratio' - no problem here with 760hp available to haul one of the two former 'Railair Express' wired GUVs and a former SR van. . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2012 If the concern was power to weight ratio, then where would that leave things such as the London area 4x car Pressed Steel set i.e. a 3x car Pressed steel with the added Metro-Cammell trailer, which was used on excursions as well on summer weekends. ? . Brian R Simples - a MetCamm trailer weighed about 25 tons so a normally 3 car Pressed Steel set with a tail traffic load limit of 35 tons would still have had power to spare and there was nowhere anything like as steep as 1 in 50 where the London Division 4 car sets ran. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If the concern was power to weight ratio, then where would that leave things such as the London area 4x car Pressed Steel set i.e. a 3x car Pressed steel with the added Metro-Cammell trailer, which was used on excursions as well on summer weekends. ? . Brian R These 4 car formations were used in normal service the Henley - Paddington morning sdervice and the return service evening wss a favorite for the DMU combination. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I've just been looking at the Paddington station workings for 1965-66 which show what was supposed to happen. Some random entries: 0413 staff train Paddington - Hayes: single power car and drive end trailer to Hayes, parcels diesel car to Southall 0622 Paddington - Reading and several other workings: 3 car set and drive end trailer 0722 High Wycombe - Paddington and several other workings: 2 3-car sets and drive end trailer 1620 Paddington - Banbury: 4 car set. 1965-66 is a bit early for the 101s to have arrived so I'm guessing that the extra trailer is one of the converted Hawksworths 1707 Paddington - Newbury: 4 car set and 3 car set. Comment as for 1620 Banbury Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I've just been looking at the Paddington station workings for 1965-66 which show what was supposed to happen. Some random entries: 0722 High Wycombe - Paddington and several other workings: 2 3-car sets and drive end trailer Interesting. Do you happen to know if this working was via Maidenhead or Gerrards Cross? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2012 Interesting. Do you happen to know if this working was via Maidenhead or Gerrards Cross? I don't know offhand about 1965-66 but in the 1963-64 Winter service it was 07.38 off Gerrards Cross (I have got the '65-66 timetable but it's in the attic, 'the '63-'64 London Division pamphlet was reasonably handy). In that timetable the first Up train across the Wycombe branch left Wycombe at 07.50, terminating at Maidenhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I've just been looking at the Paddington station workings for 1965-66 which show what was supposed to happen. Some random entries: 0413 staff train Paddington - Hayes: single power car and drive end trailer to Hayes, parcels diesel car to Southall 0622 Paddington - Reading and several other workings: 3 car set and drive end trailer 0722 High Wycombe - Paddington and several other workings: 2 3-car sets and drive end trailer 1620 Paddington - Banbury: 4 car set. 1965-66 is a bit early for the 101s to have arrived so I'm guessing that the extra trailer is one of the converted Hawksworths 1707 Paddington - Newbury: 4 car set and 3 car set. Comment as for 1620 Banbury Chris Hawksworth trailers were used with the Gloucester 3 car 119's which were allocated to the London Division of the WR in the eary 1960's. The other common 4 car formations were 117 3 car + 121 DTS or 121 MBS or both to form a 5 car! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 1620 Paddington - Banbury: 4 car set. 1965-66 is a bit early for the 101s to have arrived so I'm guessing that the extra trailer is one of the converted Hawksworths Chris What's one of they Chris? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Ed, these are old friends of RMweb! In 1961 three Hawksworth corridor composites were equipped to work with Blue Square dmus, ie most of them. W7254W, W7804W and W7813W were painted dark green. Two of them were formed into Class 119 Cross-Country sets working from Bristol - which were in the almost-but-not-quite-malachite shade of green worn by most dmus before mid 1959 so the two shades of green clashed somewhat. I was at Paddington on the first day of the working in September 1961 but unfortunately my Brownie 127 was not up to capturing the image of the apparition on Platform 10! THe diagram was 8.15 am Frome - Paddington, 6.5 pm Paddington - Westbury and a return trip to Oxford in between. The Hawksworths were condemned in about 1967 and replaced by three 101 trailers, 59528/38/43. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hawksworth trailers were used with the Gloucester 3 car 119's which were allocated to the London Division of the WR in the eary 1960's. The other common 4 car formations were 117 3 car + 121 DTS or 121 MBS or both to form a 5 car! XF Not quite, according to the station working book. A 117 3 car +121 DTS was described as "3 car set and drive end trailer". I did not spot any "3 car set, single power unit and drive end trailer" in the 1965-66 book [i'll have another look later] but this formation appeared in the 1959-60 volume. At this time the 117s had not been delivered so the gap was filled by 116s borrowed from Cathays and Tyseley which worked with 122 power cars and trailers. An example working for the three car set plus single power unit plus drive end trailer was the 10.18 am Paddington - Oxford, extended to Kingham on Saturdays. There were also workings for "three car set and single power unit", an example being the 4.30 pm Paddington - Reading. At this time the supply of units was spread really thinly, to the extent that the pair of Cross-Country sets that worked the 7.0 am Paddington - Wolverhampton and 4.8 pm Birmingham Snow Hill - Paddington was turned out to work an evening stopper [8.33 pm] to Reading and back. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Ed, these are old friends of RMweb! Indeed they are The Hawksworths were condemned in about 1967 and replaced by three 101 trailers, 59528/38/43. I think there was some sort of 'crossover' period, but I can never remember the details - dependent on when the 119s were transferred away from the London Division, either the Hawksworths would have worked with 117s or the MetCams with the 119s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Interesting. Do you happen to know if this working was via Maidenhead or Gerrards Cross? Matt, apologies for not spotting your post last night. Often when I click on "view first unread post" it takes me to the latest one as it did this time. Grrrr .... Anyway - don't know BUT I guess via Maidenhead. The reason for my guess is that in 65-66 there was a 17.33 Padd - High Wycombe via Bourne End, formed 2 3-car sets and drive end trailer, and an 18.23 Padd - High Wycombe via Maidenhead, formed 2 3-car sets. Quite why one was described as via Bourne End and one as via Maidenhead is one of those fascinations but I put it down to Chris's first law of government, which states that things are not the same because they don't have to be. That last thought is one for discussion over a pint, I guess. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think there was some sort of 'crossover' period, but I can never remember the details - dependent on when the 119s were transferred away from the London Division, either the Hawksworths would have worked with 117s or the MetCams with the 119s. There is a photo of a Hawkesworth in a 117 set in Brian Golding's DMU book but it is undated so not clear if it is before or after the 119s left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think there was some sort of 'crossover' period, but I can never remember the details - dependent on when the 119s were transferred away from the London Division, either the Hawksworths would have worked with 117s or the MetCams with the 119s. The MetCamms only worked with Pressed Steel sets as far as I can remember as I'm fairly sure that by the time they arrived Reading was only dealing with the Pressed Steel sets on a regular basis apart from fuelling. One of them very definitely only worked with a Pressed Steel set as I saw it just after it arrived at Reading (and pointed out to the Depot Manager that it still carried a shedplate) and I saw it marshalled into the set and I'm fairly sure (but can't be absolutely certain) that the same happened with one of the others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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