Camden Shed

[cornish trains jez]

Very nice Iain. All those little added extra fiddly details will just make the model even better. Superb!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[fishytrains]

That water tank is really coming along nicely with those added details.

 

Mike

[1BCamden]

hi Iain, wow looking really good !!

Sorry about the raincoat shot, I realised afterwards too.

Regarding the roof, I'd always assumed it was generally flat, or with a slight fall to the east, the platform skirted the edge all the way round as per Vincent's model, but it would have been framed from the internal tank trusses.

Regarding piping detail as requested - main inlet (west) and outlet (east) these where encased in insulation or a weather shield (protect against freezing in winter) and these where both steel box section as you realised. The vertical sections where bolted together at each horizontal flange set.

Regarding the Gibson etch flanges, nice touch aren't they !!

 

You know I'm going to copy basically everything you are doing, you are doing such a great job, besides you can always go and see VW if you get stuck, it's a bit harder for me, I'm already planning another research trip to Camden in 2018.

 

By the way the tank panels look great, now you just need a colour.

Any news of the new home front ?

 

Best regards, it a pleasure to be of some small help.

Stanley

 

couple more tank photos, you can guess which one is my all time favourite, with both LNWR and LMS coaling plants in one view, how good is that !!

The poor quality attachments show the actual roofing (lower left), the better one shows hand rails and something on the righthand side.

Snapshot 2007-10-06 10-45-43.tiff

Snapshot 2007-10-06 10-46-39.tiff

Edited February 19, 2016 by 1BCamden

[92220]

Thanks again there Stanley. You are far more than some small help and it is all very much appreciated.

 

We are making what feels like good progress on the house, thanks. I'll post an update when we've got some definite news on timings etc, but I had a meeting with the architect on Wednesday and the attic room will be a good size, if not big enough to do what I really want. However, that is an absurd idea really, in that I'd like 32" x 15" at full ceiling height to build the full extent between the bridges that I have so far, plus the full width from the backs of the Gloucester Road houses to maybe 2 roads of the goods yard.

 

The long side of the T shaped area will be about 34" long and 10'6" wide at 40" height before the old chestnut of the sloping roofline kicks in. The stairs come into the short leg of the T shape so little intrusion there.

 

My choices will be, I think:

 

1. Build it all a bit lower, so somewhere between 30" and 34" off the floor as the finished baseboard height. Is that too low? I can build it so the baseboards can be inverted for wiring etc.

 

2. Build it as what I think is called a dog bone(?). The scenic part can fit at 39" height down the middle of the room, then the curvature at each end could (?) be long enough to double back and have the fiddle yard underneath the scenic boards. Inclines on curves and 12 coach trains.... It will be like the real Camden Bank!

 

3. Build something different to make sensible use of the space.

 

As far as I can see it, 3. is out as I'm so invested in, and indeed interested in, Camden Shed.

 

So at some point hopefully soon, I will need to pick the brains and experience of Gordon S, who has been through every possible permutation with Eastwood Town. Plus he is clever and I don't think I'd have got very far at all without his help.

 

At present though, l am in Northern Ireland for a golf tournament. Practice today and yesterday in 40mph and heavy rain was not fun (although I showed the youngsters a thing or two!).

 

I'd rather be adding rivetted plates to the water tower.....!

 

All the best,

 

Iain

[Buhar]

The dog-bone or dumb-bell shape with hidden sidings underneath depends on haulage capacity on gradients which will also probably be on curves.  I don't know how well you've been able to weight your locos and how heavy the average coach is, but it could be a struggle.

 

I bought some plastering bead the other day which promptly attached itself to the magnetic security wotsit at the checkout in Wickes.  As a DIY version of DCC Concepts Powerbase came to mind using that under the track and those little neodymium magnets directly under the drivers. 

[1BCamden]

hi Iain, golfing in Ireland this time of year (wow, bit cold) how exciting, don't worry the rivets aren't going anywhere !!

The space you describe, and being under the main roof is amazing, very fortunate indeed.

The layout arrangement will be an interesting challenge, but glad you are sticking with Camden. If I could add one point, no gradients, it's a common thread through most model railway builders, especially at prototypical lengths, with all the other constraints it's just not worth the headache.

I intend to indicate a gradient (how I don't know) for the down slow lines under the bridge, and the bank, but we are talking a couple of millimetres only, just couldn't do with a rake coming apart under exhibition conditions.

 

Regarding tank walkways and railings, interesting changes on the railings from the 1936 photo to the BR photo, looks like some changes took place up there. To early for EHS legislation to have kicked in, but you never know.

 

Good luck on the golfing front !!

Best regards

Stanley

Edited February 21, 2016 by 1BCamden

[92220]

Thanks Stanley.

 

For the first time, I have noticed on your second pic above that there is not just one walkway around the edge of the tank, but in addition, a walkway towards the centre from the NE side. An inspection hatch perhaps?

 

Another thought is the material for the tank cover: would it have been plate steel, welded or rivetted together at the seams? If so, how big would each panel or sheet have been? Or could it have been corrugated?

 

You mentioned colour earlier too. Some of the colour photos I have seen seem to indicate that the tank itself was a slightly shiny black, which would then have weathered accordingly. So I was going to paint it satin black and then weather it to tone everything down. If that sounds sensible.

 

Iain

[Black5]

Hi Iain, just been looking at your latest pictures of the water tank. It really is a great piece of work.

I have to agree with 1B Camden, it`s a pity all that work will disappear beneath a coat of paint but it has to be done. I think i would take a good set of pictures though when it`s finished and still bare metal.

I noticed in an earlier message you mentioned Alton Models. The last of the shops to hold a good stock for the modeller in my area, (I live in Fleet ),

 We used to have another,Cove Models, but sadly that went a few years ago unfortunately.

Cheers,

Jim.

[1BCamden]

Hi Iain,

On the north west side ? 'stuff' hard to say, an access manway/hatch wouldn't be that big, something changed from 'as installed' at some point, have to look at it  a bit closer.

Additional railing, not only around the perimeter of the tank, but also across east to west, slightly to the northern end also.

Roofing material, I know we are leaning towards corrugated iron (GWR style) but I don't think so, another closer look here too.

Tank colour, see attached colour photo -

best regards

Stanley

 

[1BCamden]

Hi Iain, you are going to love this ......

 

1B shed, main tank railings and access,

After a think and a closer look at a couple more photos, plus our discussion to date, this is how I see it;

 

Key photos (1) the double coaler 1936 photograph, and (2) the BR Caledonian on the turntable photograph (#566), plus (3) the BR 6245 photograph.

 

The access platform extended completely around the perimeter of the tank, (two rail, no kick plates both sides) basically 914mm (36") wide deck of timber longitudinally mounted on steel framing through tank roof to internal support structure.

 

Two additional platforms (one located above the main tank inlet pipe, and another above the main tank outlet pipe) the right hand side (inlet) provided access to the internal ball float valve assembly and its hatch. The left hand platform (outlet) provided access to a single flanged and bolted hatch (500x500mm max) for inspection and maintenance access, and possibly an outlet valve extended handle.

 

http://www.petersmithvalve.co.uk/equilibrium.htm

 

Roofing 3mm galvanised plate steel, bolted together, with each plate approximately the same size as a wall panel, however in 4mm scale it would look like a single piece, but grid lined and with bolt heads throughout. This arrangement was supported by the internal support structure, and shed water through a slight pitch to the east side of the tank, which would be difficult to detect under the decking.

 

Points of note,

Photo (1) the shape on the right hand valve access platform, is a long rectangular hinged hatch (which is open in this photo) to access the inlet ball float valve assembly, the ball float hatch cover is open in this photo, it's not there in the other photographs because the hatch is closed.

Photo (2) clearly shows the framing between the tank and the decking.

Photo (3) the dark area on the right hand side of the tank top, is actually a superstructure shadow from the new coaling plant.

 

I think I've changed my mind and edited this at least three times, but it's pretty close now.

best regards

Stanley

Edited February 22, 2016 by 1BCamden

[Michael Delamar]

Have you seen these?

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p586475522/h691726b9#h691726b9

 

http://railphotoprints.zenfolio.com/p586475522/h69a211ba#h69a211ba

 

Mike

[1BCamden]

Hi Iain, well I think Michael has sorted the colour out for the whole site, what a gift !!

[ianwales]

My choices will be, I think:

1. Build it all a bit lower, so somewhere between 30" and 34" off the floor as the finished baseboard height. Is that too low? I can build it so the baseboards can be inverted for wiring etc.

 

All the best,

Iain

Hi Iain

 

one advantage ii you build it at a lower height you can sit down to operate it.

 

Ian

[92220]

Wow, those are exceptionally clear shots! Thank you very much indeed, Mike. Hugely appreciated, as I hadn't seen them at all.

 

It seems from this crop of one of Stanley's photos:

 

 

and his diagram of the pipe arrangement:

 

 

plus the extra clarity of the two that Mike has posted, that there are two short walkways in from the continuous one around the edge, to the positions above the main west side inlet and east side outlet pipes. Directly above or slightly to one side of these pipes? And the valves/ball float assemblies etc are under inspection hatches so I can model the hatches closed?

 

Do please tell me if you see or interpret anything different?

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Iain

[1BCamden]

Hi Iain,

Couple more photographs of the tank, looks like the inner handrail was a very late installation based on the second photo, it was clearly not there when this photo (BR) was taken.

The first pre 1936 photo again shows 'the hatch' and timber (planking) decking, but arranged across the platform, not along it.

best regards

Stanley

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by 1BCamden

[TerryD1471]

Hi Iain,

Couple more photographs of the tank, looks like the inner handrail was a very late installation based on the second photo, it was clearly not there when this photo (BR) was taken.

The first pre 1936 photo again shows 'the hatch' and timber (planking) decking, but arranged across the platform, not along it.

best regards

Stanley

 

 

image.jpeg

 

image.jpeg

Sorry to divert attention away from the main topic, but I am just blown away by the picture of 46237. Without checking my (too) numerous reference sources, she must have been in BR blue livery when she was pictured with a bevelled smokebox. What a sight!

 

I am happy to be corrected by anyone who knows better, but who cares? The picture of 46240 is equally glorious. Sorry if my enjoyment of Duchesses detracts from the main purpose of the thread, which is to ensure Iain has correct details about his model.

 

Can I offer my congratulations to Iain too, on his first-rate modelling skills? Let's hope all the baseboards fit in his new house.

 

Terry D

[92220]

Thanks Terry, and don't worry - enjoyment of Duchesses definitely has a place here!

 

A little more progress on the tank cover and walkways.

 

I marked out a sheet of 0.010" plasticard and rivetted it in 4' scale panels - same size as the Braithwaite panels. The planking was cut at just under 36" scale width and stuck to 0.040" strip supports.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not 100% certain of the platform size and position on the W side. From the position and number of the railings on the pictures Michael Delamar posted, it doesn't quite stack up. I think the E side one is ok ish.

 

The inspection hatch on the W side is long and about 3' scale wide. The smaller hatch on the E side is a scale 16" square. Both will need some hinge detail and handles. If they are ok. If not, I'll replace them.

 

The whole arrangement is supported by a platform of 0.060" plasticard so hopefully there won't be any sagging etc when it is fixed. Also, limonene used throughout to reduce warping tendency.

 

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

Iain

[92220]

A slight departure from the real business of modelling.

 

The best way I could visualise how the plans for the loft in the new house might accommodate what is euphemistically termed "my project", was to build a model of it.

 

I've tried it with minimum radius of 4 feet on the end curves and it fits reasonably well, so if I go with slightly tighter radius I will free up more space. The length of the scenic section on the current one is 12', and this proposed new version would be 20'. Scale would be 25 point something, I can't recall exactly. But the angles are better, and the geometry of the pointwork in the yard would be a lot easier.

 

The fiddle yard is 2'6" wide and 20' long so there is more than enough space for me not to fill.

 

The board heights are 2'9" in this effort. I could make it a bit higher with 3'6" end curves and still fit the coaling plant under the roof slope.

 

 

 

 

No gradients, thankfully.

 

Again, any thoughts welcome.

 

Iain

[LNER4479]

Love the model of your model!

 

Is there any reason why your workbench isn't to the left hand side of the staircase (ie the 'leg' of the 'T')? Otherwise, how do you propose to get access to the workbench as located? Is there room to squeeze past the side of Camden shed or are you going to have to do a double crawl under every time?

 

If it were me I'd be exploring all sorts of complex routings in and out of the 'leg' with different levels and gradients ... but that's just me!

[fishytrains]

I rather like the plan you have come up with, although I can also understand LNER4479's desire to utilise all available space! If things become "boring" with your original plan, you could look to extend into the extra space then.

 

Mike

[92220]

Hi Graham and Mike,

 

Yes, well spotted! The leg of the T where the stairs come up will be for storage cupboards. I've done well to get away with as much as I have to be honest!

 

I built the model model to show what could be squeezed in at a push. In reality, once I plan it all in templot, I imagine that I'll have 3'6" minimum radius on the end curves, which will give me an extra foot of room to get past to the workbench at the end. The width of the room at 41" height limit is just under 12' so I should have enough space to fit in something close to what I've shown here. There will be a hinged section at the workbench end too, to get into the central well.

 

It needs some careful planning in all respects, for example:

 

How wide does the fiddle yard need to be? It is long enough that I could perhaps have staggered up and down yards as Terry does on Hest Bank. This could create more space.

On the other hand I could have more of a "Gilbert" Great Northern yard with 28 or however many full length roads. I suspect that 12 full length roads might be best. I could even recycle and lengthen the current yard by about 9'.

There is a sloping roof where I need to get through to the bench and I need to be clear in 3D how much space there will be, so as not to destroy the Pembroke pub every time I squeeze through.

I could also turn the scenic section round and have the curvature of the main lines the other way. However, I think this actually possibly reduces space and makes the end radius tighter?

 

Anyway, I'm encouraged that I think I have the space to build a really decent model of Camden Shed in the new loft. Fingers crossed.

 

Iain

[BMacdermott]

Hello Iain

 

Could the layout go right up the wall occupied by the workbench, then put the workbench over the curved section so that you are always 'on the inside'? It would probably need to be 'lift off' or 'fold up' style. The 'shed side' could then butt directly up to the wall with the door opening. It would also result in slightly more track space and a wider central operating area (or same area but with a few more hidden siding tracks).

 

Brian

[LNER4479]

As an alternative suggestion could you not turn the whole thing round 180deg so that you're squeezing past the fiddle yard rather than Camden. Or - as I suspect - do you want to be able to view Camden from both sides?

 

If Great Northern Gilbert were here he'd be advocating the use of cassettes for your fiddle yard. Might be worth considering for smaller trains?

[92220]

Thanks Brian and Graham.

 

I could certainly have the workbench above the curved section at the end, and I've thought about that. It would make the FY longer, and therefore almost definitely no need to have it double width.

 

An alternative or at least adjusted idea is here:

 

 

This gives me more space for the end curvature, which I've stuck at 4' minimum radius, and so brings the scenic section more into the middle of the room. This is the key driver really, not having the scenic section visible from both sides (although the fact that it is makes it possible to have a wider scenic area and to include hopefully the backs of the Gloucester Road houses as well as a few roads of the goods yard on the other side. I could make this board a little narrower than it is on this sketched drawing. The more the buildings like the coaling plant etc are away from the side walls, the less the roof slope will intrude. The storage sidings can be right up against the wall because there is far less above board level than on the scenic side.

 

I need to think about the design of the fiddle yard - though it is more a set of storage sidings as no fiddling will go on. In reality, trains run past the shed area on the main lines, in either up or down directions, and there is not even much need to interchange from up to down or even fast to slow lines off stage. Do I even need any crossovers? Cassettes would be perfectly feasible at the workbench end, and probably at the other end too, with an easy place for an entry/exit road. Although there will be relatively few short trains I suspect. I'm not sure. The Watford electric service could be in cassettes. Equally I could double up the use of certain vehicles with judicious cassette use. I could really do with talking this whole thing through with a few people more experienced than I am. Not to mention cleverer.

 

I feel as if the curves under the workbench should be plain track only to avoid potential problems in the future.

 

Again, more rambling thoughts and I welcome views if you have any.

 

Thanks,

 

Iain

[BMacdermott]

Hello Iain

 

That looks really good! And thanks for the extra detail of your thoughts - I can now see why you want Camden side too be 'off the wall'.

 

I have attached a (very!) rough sketch plan. It may look complex at first sight, but it's dead easy and only involves four points, which saves a heck of a lot of money. It has a 'Lower Reverse Loop' at 0". Trains emerge from one of two linear hidden roads into the 'Camden Scenic Area'. Just prior to emerging, the baseboards would be starting to angle upwards, as the trains need to climb 3" to clear the Lower Reverse Loop. It works out at about 1 in 120 between A and B. My own layout has no problem with 10-coach trains.

 

The positives are:

Only four points (less cost, less risk of derailment etc)

Loads of storage space.

 

The negatives are

Harder to build.

Needs DPDT polarity reversal switches.

There is only little option for bringing trains out of the sidings.

It might be harder for the workbench positioning.

 

I'll PM some photos of my layout to you later.

 

Brian