scots region Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Good Afternoon gentlemen, you will more than likely have heard, at some point of the exploits of 60163 Tornado, now all credit to the boy at Darlington, But this topic aims at another plan to revive an extint class of express locomotives. I am of course talking about the plan to build a new Standard Class 6 4-6-2 72010 'Hengist', now wether the Standard Steam Locomotive Company will be sucessful in their aims is for the future, but I most certainly hope they are, I'm sorry but the Clans really don't derseve such bad press. Anyway a while ago I was browsing through the TMC website and noticed that they've started to advertise a custom 'Hengist', this is gist of the debate that I've been having with myself. Tornado is an A1 and a new build like 'Hengist' but Tornado is literally brand new, there never were going to be anymore A1s after 60162 'Saint Johnston', also Tornado has been modifed for running on a 21© railway. This is were Hengist differs slightly, if it is indeed built then it will of course have to incorporate the modifications that Tornado recieved, but 'Hengist' was planned for the southern region. So as a modeller do I. (A) model Hengist in an alternative senerio were the SR took deliverly of its 'Clans' I.e without any modifications or (B) model Hengist as she may eventually appear, I.e with modifications. Let me know what you think. ScR Out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2012 Why do you want to model a so-far non-existant loco at all? I understand the dramatic impact that Tornado has had on the media - although its history since commissioning doesn't seem to have been entirely plain sailing - and so I suppose I understand why there are various "me too" new-builds now taking place. But for a modeller, surely there have been enough real Clans for you to faithfully model? Isn't 10 enough? I'm not sure what Southern would have done with a Clan, although they used a couple of Brits on the Arrow for a while, of course. Would you be building the loco for a layout, or just for itself? In short, this country has built thousands of steam locos - all are open to modelling skills. Why invent one that might never be built, while agonising over details that cannot yet be verified? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2012 In either scenario the design of the Southern Clans could/would have been different from the ten originally built, so I think that taking one of Hornby's current ones and just renaming it wouldn't be enough. Modifications would be required, though I don't know what they would be. Personally I'd wait until the actual Hengist gets into steam, then Hornby will probably do it anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Clans, lovely, understated and underestimated I reckon. But like Ian, I fail to see what the real problem is here, if any. TMC are offering a fictional loco with their usual pre-selecting options (real coal, poseable crew etc). Fine credit-card modelling, of which I am a keen devotee when need arises. Should the new build ever come off, Hornby will cash in, rest assured. If I am reading your question accurately, then I personally would model the what-if, had it happened in the fifties, not some future possibility. But after all, it's your railway! Enjoy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I agree with Oldudders to some extent, though as it is said time and time again on these forums, its your layout, run what you like! Many modellers will alter history, be it to make a fictitious branch line or to find a reason to run 'that' engine. Whilst they may have been altered for the Southern, unless you can find plans, or someone who knows what those alterations would have been, no one can tell you that a renamed Scottish example is wrong! The real Hengist entering service is a good few years off yet, so those modifications won't be apparent for quite some time. My inclination is that you should re-name one yourself and get many hours of happy running time in before you are proved wrong! (If you are indeed proved wrong that is). Even then, it may be the case that the modifications are easy to make to your own model. I would love an excuse to push the Clan up the list of locos I 'need'. It seems you have one... go for it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Why do you want to model a so-far non-existant loco at all? I understand the dramatic impact that Tornado has had on the media - although its history since commissioning doesn't seem to have been entirely plain sailing - and so I suppose I understand why there are various "me too" new-builds now taking place. But for a modeller, surely there have been enough real Clans for you to faithfully model? Isn't 10 enough? I'm not sure what Southern would have done with a Clan, although they used a couple of Brits on the Arrow for a while, of course. Would you be building the loco for a layout, or just for itself? In short, this country has built thousands of steam locos - all are open to modelling skills. Why invent one that might never be built, while agonising over details that cannot yet be verified? For that very reason is why I what to model something that never was, because its different, its unique and thats not to say that real designs weren't these things or that there haven't been some fantastic models of real designs with their own qualities. But I just prefer things that are really out of the ordinary, you can of course make a really good model of an existing design, but theres also a real challenge to doing a model of something that never was. In either scenario the design of the Southern Clans could/would have been different from the ten originally built, so I think that taking one of Hornby's current ones and just renaming it wouldn't be enough. Modifications would be required, though I don't know what they would be. Personally I'd wait until the actual Hengist gets into steam, then Hornby will probably do it anyway. Sorry I should have specified that, and Pah (sorry) if I adopt that mentality then what exatly makes me a modeller? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 To me, this comes under the heading of:" It's your railway, YOU do it if it makes YOU happy". Why NOT model "Hengist" if it's what you want to do? I certainly wouldn't let doubters stop me. "Clans" were yet another class of loco I never got to see......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Here she is, Jack Hengist on the Orient Express - Belmont Road and Stock - Galleries - RMweb.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hengist along with the other proposed Clans would not have survived long on the Southern, even if they had been built, as the Bulleids could do most jobs so much better. They would also have needed larger tenders as the 4250 gallons of the first batch, on a loco already a bit shy of steam, would not have been enough on main lines without troughs. Like the Highland Clans they would quickly have left for the LMR. No point in modelling Hengist as a Southern Clan as there would probably have been no such thing even if the second batch had been built. Much better to wait for an accurate model of the modified new (and real) Hengist.when it arrives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 ...This is were Hengist differs slightly, if it is indeed built then it will of course have to incorporate the modifications that Tornado recieved, but 'Hengist' was planned for the southern region. So as a modeller do I. (A) model Hengist in an alternative senerio were the SR took deliverly of its 'Clans' I.e without any modifications or ( b model Hengist as she may eventually appear, I.e with modifications. I think the answer to that is in the bold - are you running a model to run in a period setting, i.e an 'alternative reality', or a pseudo-'present day' model of a loco to be built in the near future? Hengist along with the other proposed Clans would not have survived long on the Southern, even if they had been built, as the Bulleids could do most jobs so much better. Getting back to reality, I always understood that was why they were never built, especially with the WC/BB rebuilding programme coming along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Presumably any Clans built for the Southern would have had BR1F tenders for the water capacity (as a preserved/new build loco would need). My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that, had the Clans, along with other steam locos, survived for their expected life span, they would probably have been rebuilt with Britannia boilers by now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Here she is, Jack Nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffers Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Peter Smith (the S&DJR driver/fireman) in his book "Footplate over the Mendips" or maybe "Mendips Engineman" - can't remember which one, has put forward his view that the "Southern Clans" with large BR1F tenders were to be based on the S&DJR. Presumably to the LMS Black 5s allocated there. In the event some orginal Bulleids were allocated to Bath instead and later replaced with Standard Class 5 4-6-0s which proved well up to the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim49 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Don't worry about this, it's your railway, do what you want. Does the TMC model come with the standard tender or are they offering it with the larger capacity, high sided tender as fitted to the last Brits? (The Firths) I think that would be more appropriate in view of the comments about the lack of troughs on the Southern but even if TMC don't supply it, you can always pick up a tender top as a spare part and fit it yourself. You could also just get a plain Clan and claim it is "on test" on the Southern to assess it's capabilities before they commit themselves to an order. This explains why Clan McKenzie is currently running round my loft at the head of the Pines Express and looking damn good as it does so. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If a batch of Clans had been delivered to SR I think that the new build question would not have happened as I suspect there would have been at least one amongst the Barry scrapyard collection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The idea of a Clan, even less sure-footed than a Bulleid, on the S&DJR seems a bit far-fetched to say the least. They could have been of some use on the South Eastern, with short runs and moderate loads. Clearly the Night Ferry would have been well beyond them. They might have coped with the Golden Arrow in the early days but would have struggled with the heavier loads later in the 50s. Even some of the boat trains with several Pullmans added would have been taxing. It has been said they would barely have matched the Schools on the Southern. Now that would have been an embarrassment to Mr Riddles, his new 4-6-2 outrun by an old 4-4-0. No wonder he dropped the plan! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 The idea of a Clan, even less sure-footed than a Bulleid, on the S&DJR seems a bit far-fetched to say the least. If there was one thing the Clans did have a reputation for it was being able to pull up hills (non trivial hills in the North). The Bulleids were rated as no better than a class 5 on the S&D - presumably because of all of the slipping. I don't expect a Clan would have been much better either but they must have been cheaper to run than a Spamcan. The real answer to the S&D problem was the 9F - way superior to anything at the low speeds on the S&D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2012 In either scenario the design of the Southern Clans could/would have been different from the ten originally built, so I think that taking one of Hornby's current ones and just renaming it wouldn't be enough. Modifications would be required, though I don't know what they would be. Personally I'd wait until the actual Hengist gets into steam, then Hornby will probably do it anyway. Sorry I should have specified that, and Pah (sorry) if I adopt that mentality then what exatly makes me a modeller? Apologies, my reply wasn't meant to be denigrating. I don't know if there is any source of what the modifications would likely have been, so to do them to an existing Clan model seems premature. Once Hengist is a finished locomotive, there would of course be a prototype to work from. But, as others have said, it's a case of it's your railway to do with as you please. I for one am going to rename a Clan in a fictional context, in memory of my mother. I'm not even going to make any modifications to the loco at all. It's just a case of getting the nameplates for it (247 Developments having failed miserably in that regard). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted March 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2012 Since a lot of us have bought Clans with our family names on them, we shouldn't begrudge a fellow modller having one named after his ancestor. It (the model) will probably be worn out before the new build is ready. It would be nice to have a set of 4 named for Anglo Saxon messengers: Hengist, Horsa, Haigha and Hatta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 2, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2012 BR had Hengist and Horsa as short-sea RO-RO ships about 40 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Well I did build Hengist - see my post - based on the plans given me by the group who were trying to build the real thing. The project ran into the sand when they had to leave Swanage, but my model was part of their fund raising plans. Its turned out to be one of the best running kits I have ever built. A simple modification to the Hornby model would be tender change. 247 have always been first rate for me - they have the Hengist plates. Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 One for the "might-have-been" brigade- my take on the planned ScR batch that made it to the Highlands. Hengist- go for it...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Since a lot of us have bought Clans with our family names on them, we shouldn't begrudge a fellow modller having one named after his ancestor. It would be nice to have a set of 4 named for Anglo Saxon messengers: Hengist, Horsa, Haigha and Hatta. It's the only logical reason for me to get one. You left out the fifth one. Named after a certain emporium in Liverpool. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 . Named after a certain emporium in Liverpool. The Cavern, or the Liver Building? [coat, gone...] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 One for the "might-have-been" brigade- my take on the planned ScR batch that made it to the Highlands. Hengist- go for it...... So were the second batch (ScR) class all ment to recieve the BR1F tenders? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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