Dapol working signals review

[Suzie]

If you need a power supply that can be sourced from unregulated 16V AC, 12V DC or DCC track supply you can use the Signalist DP8. This outputs a regulated voltage suitable for the Dapol signals and saves the need for extra mains leads. Probably cheaper than buying PP3 batteries, if a little dearer than the cheapest mains power supplies. Works with the Signalist SC1 decoder if you want to add DCC control later.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

If Dapol continue to ignore the comments, they might find themselves in trouble, as it might look like they are selling something which does not do what it says it should do. By not producing their own power supply unit they might be trying to pass blame on to customers, but it has gone on too long now. In the big world out there, you would expect to see a general recall of all items sold.

I have a couple of the SR ones and would have been happy with static ones until I worked out I could(in theory) automate them , but have not even attempted to test them yet, partly because layout is at early stage, and partly because of the problems mentioned.

Let's hope they take note as I know they read these forums.

[Douglas G]

I wonder if there is scope for a simple, ready-to-plant signal operating unit for under-board mounting based on servos, as they are so cheap now. I am thinking something to simply screw in place and that can operate any available signal with a rod. I don't think there is a need for lights to be included, as this can be done separately as the user sees fit (and oil lamps were not that visible in daylight anyway). I know there are controller modules about, but it stills needs a bit of work setting up the servos.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Douglas G

[Suzie]

 

I wonder if there is scope for a simple, ready-to-plant signal operating unit for under-board mounting based on servos, as they are so cheap now. I am thinking something to simply screw in place and that can operate any available signal with a rod. I don't think there is a need for lights to be included, as this can be done separately as the user sees fit (and oil lamps were not that visible in daylight anyway). I know there are controller modules about, but it stills needs a bit of work setting up the servos.

 

 

There is a unit available for Ratio signals:-

 

http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/harman/ratio-signal-motorising-kit

 

I guess it could be used for others as well.

[rue_d_etropal]

Let's hope they take note as I know they read these forums.

The difficulty here is that it is only those who are having problems who speak up and grumble. I wonder what pecentage of signals that have been sold have failed. how many, like me, who have bought them for a furure project, or who might have just put them on as dummies. If the failure figures are as bad as what the few reported suggest, then I am suprised trading standards have not got involved. Possibly because no-one wants to upset the apple cart and does not want to risk killing the signals off completely.

When Ratio originally did teir r2p signals, I got one. Ir was simple to fit, it worked and it looked very nice. Just a pity they decided to switch to a part construction version. Something similar under the Dapol SR lattice signals would suit me, even if it meant I could not automate them.

 

But, if Dapol are reading this , I suggest they look for a power unit they could sell to use with these signals. Start with the basic LED light ones, which say they have a regulated supply. With a simple connector it would make fitting a lot easier and hopefully iron out all the problems.

Edited February 15, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[Greenmodelmonkey]

The difficulty here is that it is only those who are having problems who speak up and grumble. I wonder what pecentage of signals that have been sold have failed. how many, like me, who have bought them for a furure project, or who might have just put them on as dummies. If the failure figures are as bad as what the few reported suggest, then I am suprised trading standards have not got involved. Possibly because no-one wants to upset the apple cart and does not want to risk killing the signals off completely.

When Ratio originally did teir r2p signals, I got one. Ir was simple to fit, it worked and it looked very nice. Just a pity they decided to switch to a part construction version. Something similar under the Dapol SR lattice signals would suit me, even if it meant I could not automate them.

 

But, if Dapol are reading this , I suggest they look for a power unit they could sell to use with these signals. Start with the basic LED light ones, which say they have a regulated supply. With a simple connector it would make fitting a lot easier and hopefully iron out all the problems.

I am sure Dapol are fully aware of these issues and know what the fix is, but of course it will come at a cost so I doubt they will positively engage and help resolve... It would be nice to think they care....

[rue_d_etropal]

In much of the discussion, it is just said that signal just stops working, but is it one fault or many. 

I found this online, and wonder if this might be problem in some cases. Still does not excuse Dapol for the problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfiEf0qmHjA

 

If the problem is similar to what is described, maybe then too high a power etc is causing it, like when Hornby were having problems with point motors a few years ago. I think Peco introduced a less powerful point motor because it was found original could damage some points.

 

It is interesting seeing inside the device, and how it is a motor which is activated not a 'buzz motor', as the point motor type was sometimes called.

[Ray M]

In much of the discussion, it is just said that signal just stops working, but is it one fault or many. 

I found this online, and wonder if this might be problem in some cases. Still does not excuse Dapol for the problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfiEf0qmHjA

 

If the problem is similar to what is described, maybe then too high a power etc is causing it, like when Hornby were having problems with point motors a few years ago. I think Peco introduced a less powerful point motor because it was found original could damage some points.

 

It is interesting seeing inside the device, and how it is a motor which is activated not a 'buzz motor', as the point motor type was sometimes called.

It sounds like Alan Shearer, is into fixing Dapol signals.

[2750Papyrus]

   

 

There is a unit available for Ratio signals:-

 

http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/harman/ratio-signal-motorising-kit

 

I guess it could be used for others as well.

 

Please do you or other readers have experience of this unit?  There is no picture and little description contained in the link.

[Suzie]

Please do you or other readers have experience of this unit?  There is no picture and little description contained in the link.

 

I have one, here are some pictures of it installed:-

 

 

 

It just fits through a hole in the baseboard, and the servo horns just act on the levers sticking out of the bottom of the Ratio signal. The Ratio signal can just be removed for transport while parked at danger.

 

Turn the servo horns through 90° to link to rods dropped straight down from other signals.

 

Mine is linked to a Signalist SC2 servo decoder, but you can connect it to any servo controller.

[rue_d_etropal]

It sounds like Alan Shearer, is into fixing Dapol signals.

it is the first positive idea I have seen here. There should be no need to modify the signals, just find the problem and sort it out. Are the two problems mentioned,that is  a disconnected motor device, or disconnected return spring the problem most are having or are there other problems, or are some just lazy and when something goes wrong, just say it does not work without thinking it might be possible to fix.

We have probably all had minor problems withmodels we buy. On a loco it might be a pickup which is not quite making contact. It can be fixed and problem goes away. I have had short circuits on one model, and all it needed was a bit of extra insulation. We have had lots of new locos  with back to backs on wheels incorrect. A simple fix and problem goes away. How often do we have a point failure and all it needs is a simple fix.

In some ways it used to be easier when we had a local model shop. An experience shop owner can usually sort out minor problems, but now it is all too easy to just send something back, get a replacement and then have a similar problem. All too easy to say the fault should not exist, but ignoring a simple fix is just as bad.

 

It had not occured to me that it would be a motor, but looking at its simplicity it makes sence. The motor, I presume is DC , it must have a continuous power supply, not just the short burst when the signal is activated. Maybe the motor moves too fast and knocks something out out, eg its connector or the return spring. I assume the short burst of power just sets the switch so the motor starts up. Presumably there is some type of switch which disconnects at end so motor then stops and next time it turns other way. If I am right, then the power for the motor must be same as that which supplies the LED, so is that too high?

 

What is disappointing is that the motor could be positioned differently so it does not have to be so deep. It could be positioned so it is parallel with baseboard, and then either be under or on top, even given its size , buried in the board. If the signal was on a platform, common if it is a platform starter, then the motor could be in the platform. Making the motor unit detachable would give people the option of using a different mechanism.

Edited February 16, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[Suzie]

The mechanism has a motor that is controlled by a microcontroller which gets its activation from the control pushbutton, and end of travel feedback from makeshift switches fabricated on the Dapol PCB. Whatever voltage is supplied to the red and black wires is regulated down to 3V DC for the mechanism, while the LED runs from the applied voltage dropped by an 820R resistor. Managing the different power requirement of the two circuits is what makes power supply selection critical - too much overheats the regulator, while not enough makes the LED dim.

 

I think there are a few problems when the signals fail:-

• Mechanical - The traveller loses contact with the screw or something similar so that the motor turns but the arm does not move.
• Mechanical - One or other of the end switches are not activated resulting in the signal moving one way but not the other.
• Electrical - The electronics burns out.

The mechanical problems might be fixable by the user if they are very dexterous, but bear in mind if experienced Chinese operatives are having trouble getting it right, it is not always going to be easy for some ham fisted modellers. I have taken one apart but would not want to have to do it again.

 

The electrical problem can be fixed with MERG kit 470.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Suzie

[Greenmodelmonkey]

I think there are two problems:-

 

• Mechanical - The traveller loses contact with the screw or something similar so that the motor turns but the arm does not move, or the end switches are not activated.
• Electrical - The electronics burns out.

The mechanical problem might be fixable by the user if they are very dexterous, but bear in mind if experienced Chinese operatives are having trouble getting it right, it is not always going to be easy for some ham fisted modellers. I have taken one apart but would not want to have to do it again.

 

The electrical problem cannot be fixed without resorting to MERG kit 470.

 

Why should you have to resort to a third party kit especially as you have to join MERG at additional cost (as good as they are)... send them back if they are still in warranty. Now I know why the promised 0 gauge signals never came to fruition that's a few quid saved!

Edited February 16, 2017 by Greenmodelmonkey

[Retro_man]

 or are some just lazy and when something goes wrong, just say it does not work without thinking it might be possible to fix.

 

Being in Canada attempting repairs myself prior to contacting the manufacturer or returning the item is always first choice.

I did spend several hours dismantling, examining, poking and attempting to re-assemble my defective units. I could find nothing in them that looked like it had failed and was not sure I had got them back together properly. The requirement to be "very dexterous" seems to be an understatement!

 

This is not a well thought out system and I am surprised they were released at all unless prototypes were never tested.

 

Steve

[Gordon H]

Why should you have to resort to a third party kit especially as you have to join MERG at additional cost (as good as they are)... send them back if they are still in warranty.

 

Well, another good reason for using the MERG kit is to gain proper control of the signal, i.e. you can then actively set the signal to the state you want, not just change it from whatever it happens to be now.

 

According to Dapol, much earlier in this thread, they extensively tested the initial signals produced during their development phase. Perhaps poor Quality Control crept in shortly afterwards.

[Gwiwer]

 

I think there are a few problems when the signals fail:-

• Mechanical - The traveller loses contact with the screw or something similar so that the motor turns but the arm does not move.
• Mechanical - One or other of the end switches are not activated resulting in the signal moving one way but not the other.
• Electrical - The electronics burns out.

I have experienced all of the above.

 

A.  The motor buzzes meaning it is correctly wired and trying to do something which it cannot achieve.  I investigated that by dismantling the motor housing only to learn that small parts which "ping" out before their correct location and orientation is noted cannot be accurately replaced without having a drawing to work from.  In any case something which pinged was never found again rendering the whole item useless.

 

B.  I managed to cure this by wiring the opposite way around (red and black reversed at the control panel) on one case and on two others discovered that if one changes the aspect but the arm does not move it can be teased into the correct position by light finger pressure.  After a couple of goes it either works normally or responds to a tiny spot of WD40 which implies the problem was actually something causing friction which was overcome.

 

C.  After a couple of tests with the signal on the bench and learning that it worked it failed to work when connected to the layout supply and had burned out.  I uttered words ruder than bottom.

[Crabster]

Well

 

According to Dapol, much earlier in this thread, they extensively tested the initial signals produced during their development phase. Perhaps poor Quality Control crept in shortly afterwards.

 

Like I said in one of my previous post, I don`t believe they have been extensively tested at all... Or at the very least, not enough. I don`t believe they have been tested running in multiple on an analogue system. They can`t have been, as they WILL fail using the original recommended 16v AC supply and as I`ve discovered, WILL also fail using a 12v AC regulated supply and a 12v DC unregulated transformer running in multiple...

I am trying a 9v DC/500ma regulated supply this weekend and I`m also going to put a switch in the circuit so any power-up voltage surge will not get to the signals....

Again, here`s hoping... 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Crabster

[Crabster]

Hi... I think I`ve just solved the electrical conundrum......

  I have wired the signals up in parallel, with both the Red and Black wires to connection blocks and all the signals fed from there, with a 9v DC/500ma regulated power supply unit, but I have also put an on/off switch in the circuit, so any voltage surge will not get to the signals. This switch, in my opinion, is essential and obviously acts as a safety barrier.

So, I am now going to wire up the rest of them (10), and buy some more soon.. I have spoken to Dapol and DCC supplies, so I hope this helps to allay any fears people have about purchasing these signals now, and persuades them they actually do work, when given the correct voltage and are switched... If there are any more developments, I will post them up here....

 

David 

[Hippo]

Hi... I think I`ve just solved the electrical conundrum......

  I have wired the signals up in parallel, with both the Red and Black wires to connection blocks and all the signals fed from there, with a 9v DC/500ma regulated power supply unit, but I have also put an on/off switch in the circuit, so any voltage surge will not get to the signals. This switch, in my opinion, is essential and obviously acts as a safety barrier.

So, I am now going to wire up the rest of them (10), and buy some more soon.. I have spoken to Dapol and DCC supplies, so I hope this helps to allay any fears people have about purchasing these signals now, and persuades them they actually do work, when given the correct voltage and are switched... If there are any more developments, I will post them up here....

 

David 

 

Thanks for posting this, I have been looking at purchasing some of these.

 

One question though, surely with the on/off switch it will turn off the coloured LED on the signal each time you turn it off, or do you turn it on for the whole operating session ?

 

Thanks

Owen

[Crabster]

Thanks for posting this, I have been looking at purchasing some of these.

 

One question though, surely with the on/off switch it will turn off the coloured LED on the signal each time you turn it off, or do you turn it on for the whole operating session ?

 

Thanks

Owen

 

Hi... Yes, I keep the signals on for the duration of the session and switch them off before I power down the layout, so that when I power up again the switch is in the OFF position... Do not power up the layout with the signals turned on, as this may blow them with a voltage surge... 

[Wacol]

 Mine have been running off the dcc track voltage via a dropping resistor with no problems but following comments and suggestions above, (plus the fact I have been rebuilding the layout),

I decided to change to dc operation. Tried a 6.5v and then a 9v supply and the same from both - the led lights but no movement from either signal. Found an ac supply - 4.5 volts, and both work ok again with a suitable level of illumination from the led. Tried the dc supplies again just in case but still nothing. So I will stick with this ac supply.

 

While I was doing this testing, the motor in one signal wouldn't shut off in one direction. It was easy enough to carefully open up one half and clean and adjust the contacts inside, just making certain to align the motor shaft and make sure no wires were trapped on reassembly.

 

Keith

[Suzie]

 Mine have been running off the dcc track voltage via a dropping resistor with no problems but following comments and suggestions above, (plus the fact I have been rebuilding the layout),

I decided to change to dc operation. Tried a 6.5v and then a 9v supply and the same from both - the led lights but no movement from either signal. Found an ac supply - 4.5 volts, and both work ok again with a suitable level of illumination from the led. Tried the dc supplies again just in case but still nothing. So I will stick with this ac supply.

 

While I was doing this testing, the motor in one signal wouldn't shut off in one direction. It was easy enough to carefully open up one half and clean and adjust the contacts inside, just making certain to align the motor shaft and make sure no wires were trapped on reassembly.

 

Keith

You may have damaged the bridge rectifier if connecting the black and red wires to DCC. This should not be done.

[Wacol]

If the rectifiers were damaged on both of them, dc wouldn't have passed through to light the led and not passed through not lighting the led in the opposite direction.

And they still only work on ac.

[Suzie]

The LED is not fed via the rectifier, and if half of the bridge is damaged it will still work to some extent on AC, and will work in one direction on DC (like the LED does, but not necessarily the same way!)

[The Ghost of IKB]

I hate to be positive in the midst of all this negativity, but i've had 3 Dapol signalsi for about 3 years now, powered from the dcc bus and they have been very reliable. One failed once, mechanically, but it was easy to take it apart and fix it, and I am very clumsy and unskilled!

Based on my experience I am happy to buy more and if the bracket signal ever makes it out to market will buy a couple without too much hand wringing

Edited February 23, 2017 by The Ghost of IKB