shandy Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) I've got 10 or 11 on my layout and, as with others on here, have suffered a number of failures. My layout is DCC and the signals have been set up using Train-Tech SC3 dual signal controllers, the failures I've encountered have mostly been of a mechanical nature, where the activation mechanism in the base of the unit has "given up the ghost". I did replace the first failed unit with another but as more and more have packed up I've decided to live with them as static units until I get around to powering them via a servo-type approach - current thoughts are to strip the base apart and activate the signal using Cobalt digital motors, which would have the added advantage of the signal "remembering" which way it is set. That's been another annoying "feature" of these units - that they don't know if they are on/off - even with the train tech decoders they end up out of sync with the layout control panels. A pity really - nice idea is but the design and execution sadly lets the product down, I shan't be spending any more money on them.... Edited February 13, 2017 by shandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Also, I think that the method of changing the aspect of the signal is totally wrong, and it should be changed to a three-wire system, with one wire connected to the common to put the signal "on", and the other connected to the common to put it "off". You need a permanent feed for the LED so the three wires should be +V, 0V and control, connect control to 0V for 'off', disconnect for 'on'. This is how the MERG replacement PCB works and allows simple one wire control. Unfortunately not worth doing the conversion when the mechanical part is also dodgy. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabster Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) I too have purchased around 20+ As far as I am aware the signal's system is all identical irrespective of type or scale. I am currently aware of just 5 of the ones I have installed still working OK so that is an approx. 75%+ failure rate. All have been wired according to Dapol's instruction using 16V AC We now have N E W insructions stating that 12v DC OR even a 9V battery can be used although AC UP TO 14Volts is OK! Personally I think that the problem lies with the 16v AC supply being TOO great for some part of the circuit BECAUSE they now state 14v AC and we all know that most auxulliary AC supplies on analogue power units are rated at 16V AC' I may purchase just 1 more and power it from a PP9 battery to see what happens over a period of time, it may be the solution it may not be we shall see' I feel sure that a 9 volt battery could power several signals, as the actual power drain to feed the LED will be very low, and it is not as if the mechanism would be powered very frequently I would add that I am not out of pocket with these as the supplying retailers ( mostly Hattons) have always refunded my cost & postal expenses Hi Steve and thanks for your input... I personally think it`s the amps that are blowing these signals as well as too much voltage.. I reckon 1 amp is way to much for them.. That`s why I`m trying a 9v AC/500ma regulated supply next, as a 12v AC/500ma supply has proven too much for them. If that blows them, then there is a serious problem in the design and manufacture here.... I`m still in touch with Dapol and DCC Supplies regarding this issue and have spoke to them today (13/2/17) and I am keeping them both informed on my progress.. I can`t help thinking I`m doing their beta testing on these signals for them, something which obviously should`ve been done by them, months if not years ago... And I have also come to the conclusion that they have not been tested running in multiple, and they`ve only tested them one at a time. Of all the circuit diagrams I`ve seen for these signals, I`ve never seen one with more than one signal installed using an analogue system and leaves me thinking that you need one transformer for each signal, which is plainly ridiculous.. There also may be some feedback of current in the circuit from the on-board capacitors when working in multiple they have not accounted for at the testing stage, which would be a serious issue if present... Something they MUST look at if it transpires that this is the case.. I will keep my progress up to date on this forum as well.. David Edited February 13, 2017 by Crabster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Hi Steve and thanks for your input... I personally think it`s the amps that are blowing these signals as well as too much voltage.. I reckon 1 amp is way to much for them.. That`s why I`m trying a 9v AC/500ma regulated supply next, as a 12v AC/500ma supply has proven too much for them. If that blows them, then there is a serious problem in the design and manufacture here.... I`m still in touch with Dapol and DCC Supplies regarding this issue and have spoke to them today (13/2/17) and I am keeping them both informed on my progress.. I can`t help thinking I`m doing their beta testing on these signals for them, something which obviously should`ve been done by them, months if not years ago... And I have also come to the conclusion that they have not been tested running in multiple, and they`ve only tested them one at a time. Of all the circuit diagrams I`ve seen for these signals, I`ve never seen one with more than one signal installed using an analogue system and leaves me thinking that you need one transformer for each signal, which is plainly ridiculous.. There also may be some feedback of current in the circuit from the on-board capacitors when working in multiple they have not accounted for at the testing stage, which would be a serious issue if present... Something they MUST look at if it transpires that this is the case.. I will keep my progress up to date on this forum as well.. David The load solely determines the current drawn. hence " 1 amp is way too much " does not apply. A 1 amp power supply is a rating that says the power supply is " capable " of supplying 1amp is the load resistance is such that that is necessary If the power draw is too great, its the voltage thats the problem Dapol now recommend 12VDC smoothed and regulated Edited February 13, 2017 by Junctionmad 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabster Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 The load solely determines the current drawn. hence " 1 amp is way too much " does not apply. A 1 amp power supply is a rating that says the power supply is " capable " of supplying 1amp is the load resistance is such that that is necessary If the power draw is too great, its the voltage thats the problem Dapol now recommend 12VDC smoothed and regulated Hi... I have tried a 12volt DC/1amp transformer and this blew them as well.. Like I said, my latest attempt was a 12AC/500ma regulated supply and this blew the most recent one on Saturday just gone... My next attempt will be 9V AC/500ma regulated when I get them through the post in the next couple of days... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Deleted - replied to wrong post! Edited February 14, 2017 by Suzie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Hi... I have tried a 12volt DC/1amp transformer and this blew them as well.. Like I said, my latest attempt was a 12AC/500ma regulated supply and this blew the most recent one on Saturday just gone... My next attempt will be 9V AC/500ma regulated when I get them through the post in the next couple of days... The amp rating of the power supply is irrelevant, you could use a 9V 100A power supply and its the same as a 9V 500 mA as far as the signal is concerned a 12V transformer is NOT smoothed and regulated , equally I would not recommend AC . Has anyone put a oscilloscope on these, I suspect there is ringing ( voltage overshoot ) on the supply lines that is killing them Dapols latest instruction sheet strongly recommends 12VDC smoothed and regulated , I would recommend you do not use AC output supplies equally they ( the signals ) are designed for momentary action switches and definitely not CDUs, in fact no voltage or power of any kind should be applied to the switch inputs PS: 12AC /500MA AC supplies are typically NOT regulated , the output voltage especially under the low loads of these signals, could be well above 12VAC 9VAC, again NOT regulated Typically for various reasons, only DC power supplies will be regulated Edited February 14, 2017 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 They go back a very long time indeed and changed in materials over the years with increasing use of plastic (the original base was cast mazac) but I don't think they were ever made in the Wrexham era as you say. Electrically worked semaphore signals came from SME (the best ones by far) Trix, and Hornby Dublo (better than Trix in my view) and all worked reliably for years and years so producing a reliable one shouldn't be too difficult although it obviously won't be an economy priced thing. And most of the old 'Crescent' whitemetal signals are easy enough to convert to either relay or servo operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2017 And most of the old 'Crescent' whitemetal signals are easy enough to convert to either relay or servo operation. Though not so easy perhaps to convert to LED as well. Aside from the Dapols most of my signals are Cresecent and are still in pretty good shape considering I bought them all second-hand, they are outdoors and they have all been repainted at least twice since I bought them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Please has anyone good experience of these signals? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2017 Please has anyone good experience of these signals? Well as I mentioned above those which haven't failed totally remain in use here, and of those only two don't power and are in LED-only mode with hand-posed arms. Six others work perfectly way beyond any design parameters being outdoors (though under cover) in Australia and controlled by levers not push-buttons through as much as 15 metres of wire. But the experience of multiple failures and partial failures means I am not impressed overall. Dapol build and quality control has been questioned in other places including but not limited to the class 73. Put simply: Buyer beware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Though not so easy perhaps to convert to LED as well. Aside from the Dapols most of my signals are Cresecent and are still in pretty good shape considering I bought them all second-hand, they are outdoors and they have all been repainted at least twice since I bought them. I did fit an LED to one (just to prove it could be done) - blu-tack the signal to the workbench so the arm can't move and carefully drill out the spectacle plate. Hopefully as and when I install/reinstall the signals on my layout I will do more, though the ones already installed on my father's layout will probably remain as they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) Please has anyone good experience of these signals?I bought one to test , I power it from 12vdc regulated ( switched mode power supply ) , it's still working , but the momentary interface is rubbish for automation , so I'm not using it in anger. I suspect the issue stems from the control circuit for the motor must have components that are too closely specified and fail on an excessive voltage spike Dapol , its worth noting originally advised against 12vdc , now they are advising against AC. The issue I suspect is the internal voltage reg, or its components fail on a input voltage spike. Some AC outputs especially older " auxiliary " outputs from controllers were very poorly specified and often n excess of 16vac. Bad design and too expensive for me Edited February 14, 2017 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2017 The only thing that I am aware of that will give a smooth and regulated 12 volts d.c. is a car battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) The only thing that I am aware of that will give a smooth and regulated 12 volts d.c. is a car battery. Batteries are smooth , but not particularly well regulated Good modern power supplies come close , with low ripple current and good regulation ( better then a battery ) The issue as far as I can see is the voltage reg circuitry in the sgnal is too tightly spec'd and fails on voltage spikes or slightly higher voltages then originally Dapol suggested people use , ie 16VAC. . A little dedicated AC to DC regulator just for the signal would most likely cure the issue. It wouldn't be the first Chinese etc, product that has poor power supply design Edited February 14, 2017 by Junctionmad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2017 The only thing that I am aware of that will give a smooth and regulated 12 volts d.c. is a car battery. I have no means of testing how smooth is the 12vDC current offered by my Morley Vortrak controller but the Dapol signals don't seem to object. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 The only thing that I am aware of that will give a smooth and regulated 12 volts d.c. is a car battery. MERG do a 12v regulated DC power supply circuit kit for £1, though you have to be a member to buy it from them. That said, as there are only four components, it wouldn't be too difficult for a non-member to source the parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Perhaps Dapol should produce a power supply for their signals since it appears most consumer products are unsuitable - it would save everyone time and money. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabster Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) The amp rating of the power supply is irrelevant, you could use a 9V 100A power supply and its the same as a 9V 500 mA as far as the signal is concerned a 12V transformer is NOT smoothed and regulated , equally I would not recommend AC . Has anyone put a oscilloscope on these, I suspect there is ringing ( voltage overshoot ) on the supply lines that is killing them Dapols latest instruction sheet strongly recommends 12VDC smoothed and regulated , I would recommend you do not use AC output supplies equally they ( the signals ) are designed for momentary action switches and definitely not CDUs, in fact no voltage or power of any kind should be applied to the switch inputs PS: 12AC /500MA AC supplies are typically NOT regulated , the output voltage especially under the low loads of these signals, could be well above 12VAC 9VAC, again NOT regulated Typically for various reasons, only DC power supplies will be regulated Yes I agree with what you are saying and now see the logic behind it...But as as I stated previously, DCC Supplies, who are Dapol`s technical department, actually sent me the 12v AC/500ma power supply, so that tells me that even they don`t know what the correct way to power them is.... I will now try a 9volt DC/500ma regulated supply when I receive them in the post and see what happens... I will report back with any findings.. but still, if there`s some stored current feedback from the on-board capacitor when powered up , I can`t see how lowering the voltage or having it regulated will stop this.. It would surely mean at the point of powering up the layout, a signal would receive the 9v from the source plus any stored current in the circuit, which may be causing the failures... But please correct me if I`m wrong.. Like a previous post states, "it is time Dapol produced their own power supply specifically for these signals" then there can be no mistake. I, Dapol and DCC need to get to the bottom of this one way or another and find out whether or not these signals are fit for purpose ultimately, and if they`re not, they need to recall all of them and take them off the shelves.. Lets hope that this does not prove to be the case.. Edited February 14, 2017 by Crabster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) has anyone tried a standard 9v DC battery ? I had a look for regulated 12v supply bits, and would not know which was best.Most seem to be for LED lighting systems, so would the power supply for one of these LED lighting units work? IT really is time for Dapol to come up with their own regulated 12v devise. They have had long enongh to do so. I dug out an LED panel supply unit, all it says is that it is 12v 600mA 7.2VA, thatmight not be the LED one though, as I found another which is 12V , 1A. That is trouble with these units as they all have same type of end on wire. Just had a look online. Would this work OK https://www.led-supplies.com/led-drivers/desktop-power-supplies/power-supply-12vdc-1a-12w-constant-voltage-with-uk-lead/ Edited February 14, 2017 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmodelmonkey Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Yes I agree with what you are saying and now see the logic behind it...But as as I stated previously, DCC Supplies, who are Dapol`s technical department, actually sent me the 12v AC/500ma power supply, so that tells me that even they don`t know what the correct way to power them is.... I will now try a 9volt DC/500ma regulated supply when I receive them in the post and see what happens... I will report back with any findings.. but still, if there`s some stored current feedback from the on-board capacitor when powered up , I can`t see how lowering the voltage or having it regulated will stop this.. It would surely mean at the point of powering up the layout, a signal would receive the 9v from the source plus any stored current in the circuit, which may be causing the failures... But please correct me if I`m wrong.. Like a previous post states, "it is time Dapol produced their own power supply specifically for these signals" then there can be no mistake. I, Dapol and DCC need to get to the bottom of this one way or another and find out whether or not these signals are fit for purpose ultimately, and if they`re not, they need to recall all of them and take them off the shelves.. Lets hope that this does not prove to be the case.. I expect the Dapol will remain elusive and give this issue a good ignoring like many other issues that surface on this forum.... but good luck!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted February 14, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2017 Has anyone tried putting a diode across the coil? I don't have any (I don't have a layout!), but am wondering if the back EMF generated by the coil when it operates and then releases is screwing something else up. The diode should stop the back emf. Worth a shot? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I expect the Dapol will remain elusive and give this issue a good ignoring like many other issues that surface on this forum.... but good luck!!! If Dapol continue to ignore the comments, they might find themselves in trouble, as it might look like they are selling something which does not do what it says it should do. By not producing their own power supply unit they might be trying to pass blame on to customers, but it has gone on too long now. In the big world out there, you would expect to see a general recall of all items sold. I have a couple of the SR ones and would have been happy with static ones until I worked out I could(in theory) automate them , but have not even attempted to test them yet, partly because layout is at early stage, and partly because of the problems mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Has anyone tried putting a diode across the coil? I don't have any (I don't have a layout!), but am wondering if the back EMF generated by the coil when it operates and then releases is screwing something else up. The diode should stop the back emf. Worth a shot? Andy G Dapol signals use a motor for operation (while they last), they are not solenoid operated. It was clear from the day they were released (5 years ago now) that these signals were poorly thought out in many ways. You only have to look back to the beginnings of this thread (about Page 5) to see how those who pointed out the deficiencies at the time were often dismissed as overly negative. Indeed 12V DC usage supposedly invalidated the warranty at that time and an explanation as to why was never forthcoming. Personally, I wouldn't touch these signals with someone else's bargepole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I was considering the SR ones having read a recent review in a magazine. However, reading this thread makes me think I'll look elsewhere now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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