Dapol working signals review

[Dominion]

I have just installed the LMS junction signal.

It has a finer looking mechanism than the GWR junction signal.

Also the counter balance weights move with the signal arm which is fun to see.

I like it enough to plan to buy another.

 

[Captain Kernow]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but how easy would it be to fit an etched arm on any of these Dapol signals, please?

 

Thanks.

 

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Captain Kernow said:

Sorry if this has already been asked, but how easy would it be to fit an etched arm on any of these Dapol signals, please?

 

Thanks.

 

Might depend on which ones as there seem to be some design variations for the different versions.

[Captain Kernow]

Thanks, I was thinking of both the GW and LMS ones, but particularly the later LMS examples...

 

[melmerby]

I've had a look at my GWR bracket signals and it looks lioke it wouldn't be too difficult

 

There's a pin (probably part of the arm moulding) going through a bearing on the post and the backlight blinder fitted to hold it in place.

I don't know what the LMS signal is like but on the GWR one the wire operating the main arm is pushed for off whereas  on the bracket, it pulls for off.

This is due to using a rocker shaft to transmit the action to the bracket arm.

A couple of pictures:

[The Stationmaster]

The LMS pattern splitting signal looks from photos to offer more possibilities for replacing the arms

[PMP]

On 10/09/2023 at 14:10, Captain Kernow said:

Sorry if this has already been asked, but how easy would it be to fit an etched arm on any of these Dapol signals, please?

 

Thanks.

 

Unless they’ve changed their arms, a scale replacement isn’t an option for the GW/LMS types.

https://albionyard.com/2012/07/29/the-good-the-not-so-good-and-the-indifferent/
In summary, wrong size and shape.

[Chris M]

My last Dapol operating signal became a non operating signal over the weekend at Swindon Steam. Never mind I will chuck the mechanism underneath the signal and replace it with an SG90 servo. They only cost a few quid off Ebay and work fine. Luckily for me I have a spare output from a Peco Smartswitch to control the servo. I will just have a bit of rewiring to do.....

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Unless they’ve changed their arms, a scale replacement isn’t an option for the GW/LMS types.

https://albionyard.com/2012/07/29/the-good-the-not-so-good-and-the-indifferent/
In summary, wrong size and shape.

Thanks Paul, it may have saved me a job, but I'll stick with MSE for now...

 

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

Unless they’ve changed their arms, a scale replacement isn’t an option for the GW/LMS types.

https://albionyard.com/2012/07/29/the-good-the-not-so-good-and-the-indifferent/
In summary, wrong size and shape.

Just looking at this link, in the case of the GW signals it's not comparing like with like.  The Dapol arms represent the earlier wooden arms with separate spectacle plate whereas the over laid etched arm is a later pressed steel type with integral spectacle plate that was a totally different shape although the Dapol version isn't totally correct.  The difference in length may be explained by Dapol possibly representing the earlier 5' arms which were later replaced by 4' ones in both wood and steel.  The square posts would also fit with the wooden arms whereas the steel ones came with the tubular posts although many wood ones were replaced over time.

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, PMP said:

Unless they’ve changed their arms, a scale replacement isn’t an option for the GW/LMS types.

https://albionyard.com/2012/07/29/the-good-the-not-so-good-and-the-indifferent/
In summary, wrong size and shape.

In summary, wrong arm, wrong comparison. A fail.

 

The Dapol GWR square post signals are old style wooden arms, the etch overlaid is a later pressed sreel one.

Comparing to a MSE 4' wooden arm, they are pretty accurate, within a fraction of a mm.

The lamp is also lower for the spectacle plate on a wooden arm. Dapol have got it pretty close.

The biggest error is the thickness of the surround for the spectacles, which is oversize, presumably for robustness.

 

(The pivot point is also offset compared to the prototype.)

 

EDit

Just noticed the link to the signals was a 11+ years ago review, not the current one I posted pictures of.🙂

Edited September 11, 2023 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

In summary, wrong arm, wrong comparison. A fail.

 

The Dapol GWR square post signals are old style wooden arms, the etch overlaid is a later pressed sreel one.

Comparing to a MSE 4' wooden arm, they are pretty accurate, within a fraction of a mm.

The lamp is also lower for the spectacle plate on a wooden arm. Dapol have got it pretty close.

The biggest error is the thickness of the surround for the spectacles, which is oversize, presumably for robustness.

 

(The pivot point is also offset compared to the prototype.)

 

EDit

Just noticed the link to the signals was a 11+ years ago review, not the current one I posted pictures of.🙂

The overlaid pressed steel arm appears to be a 4ft arm compared with the Dapol 5ft arm.  However the Dapol wooden arm on their original straight square post GW signals is actually overscale and is too long and very slightly too deep.

[PMP]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The overlaid pressed steel arm appears to be a 4ft arm compared with the Dapol 5ft arm.  However the Dapol wooden arm on their original straight square post GW signals is actually overscale and is too long and very slightly too deep.

And that indeed was what I was driving at eleven years ago. The spectacle shape and size is also wrong on that example too, as mentioned in the blog piece and the LMS/BR was even more out of proportion. I checked the simple 'one stop swap' for both types LMS/GW at that time together with etched variants of signal arms, and rapidly came to the conclusion that there wasn't a simple swap to a scale arm due to the lack of accuracy. That didn't come as a surprise with Dapol's self publicising designer of the time whose interpretation of data was firmly in the dance and mime camp, rather than literal.

 

Looking more closely at the bracket signals in the images above I doubt that there's a simple swap to make a better looking signal, with the faux lever arm operating mechanism they've adopted, for me there'd be no benefit in solely improving the arm. As I said eleven years ago these signals are ok, they fill a gap in the market, but are not as good as they could have been/be with relatively little few changes. Bear in mind that pretty much commensurate with the release of the Dapol signals,  https://albionyard.com/2012/07/02/mse-4mm-signals-ready-to-use/ these were also coming to market, showing great promise.

 

The market is still I suggest open to make good, more accurate, working signals in OO be that by Dapol or another manufacturer. 

[PMP]

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

In summary, wrong arm, wrong comparison. A fail.

 

 

EDit

Just noticed the link to the signals was a 11+ years ago review, not the current one I posted pictures of.🙂

 So if you'd read the bit where I said 'unless they've changed their arms' and read the original blog piece referring back to OPC's GWR signalling book it wasn't a fail. I didn't make a wrong comparison at all, retrospectively I should have used a wooden arm variant etch on the GW image, which would have emphasised the incorrect dimension and shape of the original square post release. I no longer have the signal in question, perhaps you'd be good enough to pop up a picture with the etches you mention overlaid on one of the originals and the newer versions to assist?

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, PMP said:

 So if you'd read the bit where I said 'unless they've changed their arms' and read the original blog piece referring back to OPC's GWR signalling book it wasn't a fail. I didn't make a wrong comparison at all, retrospectively I should have used a wooden arm variant etch on the GW image, which would have emphasised the incorrect dimension and shape of the original square post release. I no longer have the signal in question, perhaps you'd be good enough to pop up a picture with the etches you mention overlaid on one of the originals and the newer versions to assist?

Sorry about the confusion. I apologise for the rather harsh remark which was based on my at the time understanding of what was being compared.

 

I originally assumed it was a recent comparison using the wooden arm style signals I had just posted pictures of. (hence the addendum)

I don't have any earlier Dapol powered signals, just the later ones and I can assure you the actual arms are near to the correct dimension, although as can seen from the picture, the spectacle plate is rather cruder compared to reality. The lamp is also correctly mounted below the centre line again as in real life unlike the steel arms where it is in line, the pivot looks like it is slightly off the true position.

I would say that an etched 4' arm could be a feasible replacement.

See:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Spectacle plate for comparison

(Sorry not quite in position)

 

[PMP]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

See:

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  🙂 👍
 

These newer releases certainly are an improvement over the initial versions. I note the LMS arms are also of an improved shape too over the first version. Personally I’d like to see the GWR spectacle lens improved, but for what they are, RTR motorised signals that capture the overall character of the prototype, they’re ok, and hopefully will get onto layouts to improve the look and their operation.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

Thank you.  🙂 👍
 

These newer releases certainly are an improvement over the initial versions. I note the LMS arms are also of an improved shape too over the first version. Personally I’d like to see the GWR spectacle lens improved, but for what they are, RTR motorised signals that capture the overall character of the prototype, they’re ok, and hopefully will get onto layouts to improve the look and their operation.

We could do with some non bracket signals, as that'a all so far GWR wise. A 2 arm Home and Distant from the same era would be nice

 

I bought 4 - 2x RH & 2x LH junction signals. These are the ones with the clip on servo unit.

I have 2 installed, They are driven by a home brew Arduino DCC decoder and operate under TrainController.

They are easy to DCC as they just need a zero volt changeover. My Arduino module does that.

 

It would be interesting to see a 5' arm overlaid on the earlier ones to see how far out they are. Stationmaster remarked that they were too wide.

[Combe Martin]

I've read through this entire thread about Dapol's signals and what strikes me most is that it seems to me to be a Dapol public relations disaster of their own making.

 

Loads of users reporting signals that don't work, or they used to but now they don't, club layouts that had a lot (roughly 9-16?) but of those only 2 still work, lots of 'broken' signals sent back to Dapol, users ringing Dapol to complain and getting 'short shrift' from a very unsympathetic Dapol employee at the other end, Dapol continuing to insist that the power supply should be 16 volts AC, and only eventually issuing a notice to use no more than 12 volts DC, it goes on and on.

 

Dapol's website still says the power supply should be 16 volts AC when clicking on some signals.

 

So what is the 'state of play' with these now ?

 

Are they now near 100 % reliable ?, has the mechanism been modified to improve their operation, some on here say they use less than 12volts DC to operate them, what is best ?,  and what are users general opinion of them now ?, am I risking my money and time in using them and still maybe giving them up as a bad job ?

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

I've read through this entire thread about Dapol's signals and what strikes me most is that it seems to me to be a Dapol public relations disaster of their own making.

 

Loads of users reporting signals that don't work, or they used to but now they don't, club layouts that had a lot (roughly 9-16?) but of those only 2 still work, lots of 'broken' signals sent back to Dapol, users ringing Dapol to complain and getting 'short shrift' from a very unsympathetic Dapol employee at the other end, Dapol continuing to insist that the power supply should be 16 volts AC, and only eventually issuing a notice to use no more than 12 volts DC, it goes on and on.

 

Dapol's website still says the power supply should be 16 volts AC when clicking on some signals.

 

So what is the 'state of play' with these now ?

 

Are they now near 100 % reliable ?, has the mechanism been modified to improve their operation, some on here say they use less than 12volts DC to operate them, what is best ?,  and what are users general opinion of them now ?, am I risking my money and time in using them and still maybe giving them up as a bad job ?

Bear in mind there are two distinct types and which attributes apply to which.

 

The earlier ones had the gubbins in the mounting tube and were push-push to operate.

 

The later ones use a proper servo system and use a changeover switch to  set whether on or off.

This is in a square box that clips on under the baseboard once the signal has been fixed.

These are the sort I have and I use 12v DC, the instructions say 9-12v DC or 14vAC or DCC track power up to 18v.

[The Stationmaster]

On 12/09/2023 at 13:50, PMP said:

And that indeed was what I was driving at eleven years ago. The spectacle shape and size is also wrong on that example too, as mentioned in the blog piece and the LMS/BR was even more out of proportion. I checked the simple 'one stop swap' for both types LMS/GW at that time together with etched variants of signal arms, and rapidly came to the conclusion that there wasn't a simple swap to a scale arm due to the lack of accuracy. That didn't come as a surprise with Dapol's self publicising designer of the time whose interpretation of data was firmly in the dance and mime camp, rather than literal.

 

Looking more closely at the bracket signals in the images above I doubt that there's a simple swap to make a better looking signal, with the faux lever arm operating mechanism they've adopted, for me there'd be no benefit in solely improving the arm. As I said eleven years ago these signals are ok, they fill a gap in the market, but are not as good as they could have been/be with relatively little few changes. Bear in mind that pretty much commensurate with the release of the Dapol signals,  https://albionyard.com/2012/07/02/mse-4mm-signals-ready-to-use/ these were also coming to market, showing great promise.

 

The market is still I suggest open to make good, more accurate, working signals in OO be that by Dapol or another manufacturer. 

The WR tubular steel straight post version was better - partly because said designer actually took notice of some of what I rold him that he needed to do to get a better reproduction.

 

The 'faux lever arm' on the bracket signal isn't entirely 'faux' as the GWR actually used such an arrangement on bracket signals at one time and examples lasted into the 1960s.

[PMP]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The 'faux lever arm' on the bracket signal isn't entirely 'faux' as the GWR actually used such an arrangement on bracket signals at one time and examples lasted into the 1960s.

Every days a school day! I can’t recall ever having seen a picture of a set up like that. 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, PMP said:

Every days a school day! I can’t recall ever having seen a picture of a set up like that. 

The most photographed one seems to have  been the splitting signal at Talyllyn Jcn on the platform end at Talyllyn Jcn station but others have appeared in photos over the years..

[CloggyDog]

Quick question regarding the bracket signals with the control box under the board - does any know what the pitch of the 3-pin JST plug is, please. Looks to be 1.25 or 1.5?

 

Sorting the signals for a friend who has misplaced a set of leads for one of his bracket signals (GW 2-doll lower-quad) and I'd prefer to order the right size from the off. 

[Richard E]

On 25/10/2023 at 10:07, CloggyDog said:

Quick question regarding the bracket signals with the control box under the board - does any know what the pitch of the 3-pin JST plug is, please. Looks to be 1.25 or 1.5?

 

Sorting the signals for a friend who has misplaced a set of leads for one of his bracket signals (GW 2-doll lower-quad) and I'd prefer to order the right size from the off. 

Dapol do extension cables with the plugs fitted - https://www.Dapol.co.uk/products/4a-000-014-signal-extension-cable-2m-length?variant=43341668581599. I've tried measuring a plug I have here but I can't get an accurate enough figure, looks like 0.75mm though.