Dapol working signals review

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I think the kits do require a certain amount of dexterity to put together - I tried some once and didn't get on very well with them, but the fact Ratio have been selling them for 40+ years suggests most purchasers are happy with them. (As an aside I seem to have talked myself into building two overtrack signal boxes for the club layout with signals built into the front of them - these will probably use Ratio arms attached directly to servo horns).

 

There are two different types of Ratio Signal kits...

 

There are the older kits, which are quite fiddly, but make up into detailed models. These include the L&NWR signals, etc.

 

"Recently" Ratio have been marketing parts from the "other" range to allow the older detailed kits to be made to work...this could be fiddly, as the original kits pre-date the operating kits...

 

The other Ratio Range is the "Quick assembly" Signal Kits. Originally supplied mostly assembled, more recently as kits of parts.

 

These have the pivot point holes lined with metal eyelets, and are more robustthan the older detailed kits, and easier to put together and get working, as they were designed that way.

 

The range is far more limited, and has contracted at some point, as the GWR "Fixed Distant" (which didn't actually operate!) is not in the current PECO catalogue.

 

Mainly GWR and a few LMS signals...

 

For more info, have a look at the PECO Catlogue, which lists Ratio Models...

[JohnR]

I'm planning my layout to have a couple of these, but can I use a passing contact switch to control them? I am going to use Peco PL-26's for my point motors, and it would be good if I could use similar for the signals, as I quite like the feel of a "frame".

[Geoff Endacott]

I'm planning my layout to have a couple of these, but can I use a passing contact switch to control them? I am going to use Peco PL-26's for my point motors, and it would be good if I could use similar for the signals, as I quite like the feel of a "frame".

 

It could probably be done by removing one of the switch contacts. A passing contact switch connects common © to outputs A and B in turn. Throwing one way connects C-A then C-B. The reverse connects C-B then C-A. Dapol signals need a push button which is effectively what you get if you ignore either output A or B. For example, ignore output B. Throwing the lever one way connects C-A and the signal will clear. Reverse the lever and C-A are again connected to reset the signal to danger.

 

This isn't perfect because an incomplete throw of the lever means the signal position can get out of phase with the lever position.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Free At Last]

The Peco PL-26 switch only makes one pulse per throw.

It could be used by linking out the switch outputs so the signal receives a pulse on each throw.

[JohnR]

I think so, thanks Geoff. Is there a different, but similar switch that could be used?

[Geoff Endacott]

Pete's suggestion would work. I wasn't familiar with the Peco switch.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Gwiwer]

I find the PL26 lever switches work fine as they are for Dapol signals.  Wire them as you would for a point motor namely with one wire connecting the two outer terminals together and the two power feeds running from one of these outer terminals and the offset middle position terminal.

[Jonorailfan1996]

I find the PL26 lever switches work fine as they are for Dapol signals.  Wire them as you would for a point motor namely with one wire connecting the two outer terminals together and the two power feeds running from one of these outer terminals and the offset middle position terminal.

I find that the main advantage of using this type of switch and wiring it as stated in previous posts on this thread for me is that due to the various colors of lever switch available i can control train movements on my layout using  manual block signalling because the position of the lever indicates the type of signal and the position of the semaphore arm. 

[rue_d_etropal]

Has anyone tried operating these with a pulse through a reed switch operated my train passing. Looking at a simple way for auto control of signal.

 

Nothing fancy, not DCC, just to run with, but not connected to a Gaugemaster controlled  auto shuttle with diodes.

 

If it works it should only need one reed switch near end of platform track, which gets triggered to stop as train leaves platform, and then triggered backto clear when train comes back into platform. Could also be operated manually in non auto mode, or when there is a long wait.

[Gordon H]

These signals are not really suitable for proper automatic control because their state is non-deterministic, i.e. you don't set them to a defined state with the input (clear or danger), you just ask them to change from what they are now. With a simple system such as a reed switch it only needs one false pulse to make the whole operation appear incorrect.

[rue_d_etropal]

I see no reason for a false pulse, assuming it is done quickly. Only problem might be if train stops when magnet is above reed switch.Positioning read switch and magnet in right place is essential. Probably put magnet on dummy coach. If only potential problem is that signal might not be set correctly then I am not worried.

Reason for manual over ride to to correct signal, if there is a problem. One advantage of the single action, is that you will never send a second instruction to move signal in same direction. I am more concerned of effect on reed switch, not having used them before.

 

I have much more faith in simple systems , having had many years experience working in IT, so know that anything computer controlled is far more likely to miss a beat, and go wrong.

Edited October 10, 2016 by rue_d_etropal

[Suzie]

It gets a whole lot more reliable if you break it down to two stages.

 

1. The state machine. Even if you just have a simple latching relay that you set and unset with a couple of strategically placed reed switches it will very reliably always be in the correct state.
2. The monostable. This generates the pulse to operate the signal. If being analogue I would probably use a 555 timer but you might even be able to use a resistor and capacitor if being super-economy.

Relying on getting a pulse - and only one pulse - of the correct length is really asking for trouble when using a single reed switch to do everything.

 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

from my understanding to operate signal, all that is needed is a 16v ac supply and a momentary switch. Obviously different people witll press switch with different pressure, so this should not be a problem. I  would expect a reed switch to make contact and disconnect in same way. I might not be using correct terminology, but that is trying to put it simpler. I should only need one reed switch, as that it is only in one place that signal needs changing. I think it could also be used on a continuous circuit of track, setting signal to danger when train passes, then a second reed switch to reset to clear.

[Colin_McLeod]

So long as there are no false magnetic pluses as Gordon H said above.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Reed Switch could possibly also react to the motor magnet in the Locomotive.....depends on the sensitivity?

 

Also, for the older Locos, watch out for Tri-ang (Hornby) "Magnahesion" traction magnets, which "magnetify"(!) the driving wheels.

 

Or, up-to-date, DCC Concepts "Powerbase" traction Magnets!

[Gordon H]

 I think it could also be used on a continuous circuit of track, setting signal to danger when train passes, then a second reed switch to reset to clear.

 

That is the point - on each occasion they are passed your reed switches are not 'setting' or 'resetting' the signal at all -  they is merely asking it to change each time. It only needs one false trigger to put the system out of sync. Another will put it back, etc, etc. 

The essence here is that in a controllability sense these signals are not fit for purpose, no matter how good they actually look or perform mechanically.

[D826]

Good luck with those Gwiver.

I have a 50% success rate with the n gauge ones out of 6 purchased since the turn of the year. One just being returned as non functional on delivery, though a certain well known online supplier in Widnes could not have been more helpful.

Very frustrating - as ostensibly it is a good and much needed product. I hope Dapol have sorted out more reliable and robust components for these and for the n gauge brackets when they finally appear.

It's last chance saloon time for them for my n gauge ones - if any more of those I have, and the replacement I await fail, I won't be rushing to buy any more - already close to £75 spent on signals which inexplicably failed.

Let us know your thoughts on these - maybe new OO and N signals will be more robust - certainly hope so. I continue to enjoy your layout by the way - reminds me of Summer hols in the early 70s watching trains from the first floor bay window of the Beach Hotel on Marine Parade, Dawlish.

Best Regards

Matt Wood

Update time folks - with boring predictability 2 further failures with the n gauge variety of (non) working semaphore over Christmas.

- ratio signal kits ordered - power of imagination more reliable than (non) working semaphore !

 

Open goal for anyone who makes a working LQ signal which can function for more than 12 months with a better survival rate. Any chance DJM ?

 

If a loco mechanism was this fragile I would anticipate fully justified Fawltyesque ranting on here. As it is, I wonder how typical my experience is and just how many others have failed.

 

Cumulative cost is significant.

 

I'll be very very wary of purchasing the brackets when (if) they appear. Will probably wait for reports from others with deeper pockets than myself before going near them.

 

Update over.

 

Happy New Year all.

Matt W

[shandy]

Update time folks - with boring predictability 2 further failures with the n gauge variety of (non) working semaphore over Christmas.

- ratio signal kits ordered - power of imagination more reliable than (non) working semaphore !

 

Open goal for anyone who makes a working LQ signal which can function for more than 12 months with a better survival rate. Any chance DJM ?

 

If a loco mechanism was this fragile I would anticipate fully justified Fawltyesque ranting on here. As it is, I wonder how typical my experience is and just how many others have failed.

 

Cumulative cost is significant.

 

I'll be very very wary of purchasing the brackets when (if) they appear. Will probably wait for reports from others with deeper pockets than myself before going near them.

 

Update over.

 

Happy New Year all.

Matt W

 

I've had two fail over the last couple of weeks on my N gauge layout, this is in addition to another failure earlier in the year, with the earlier failure I replaced the signal but am loath to continue this route as it's very expensive at around £30 a pop.

 

I had the signals set up on DCC using train tech SC3  controllers - again not a cheap option and also not infallible as the signals go out of sync with the control panels/mimic boards. 

 

I think longer term as more of the signals fail (I've a total of 9 on the layout) I'll butcher the mechanism and control them using either servos or Cobalt digital motors, not ideal but I suspect more reliable in the long term. With the benefit of hindsight it's been a very expensive and unreliable way of signalling the layout

Edited December 28, 2016 by shandy

[Suzie]

I've had two fail over the last couple of weeks on my N gauge layout, this is in addition to another failure earlier in the year, with the earlier failure I replaced the signal but am loath to continue this route as it's very expensive at around £30 a pop.

 

I had the signals set up on DCC using train tech SC3  controllers - again not a cheap option and also not infallible as the signals go out of sync with the control panels/mimic boards. 

 

I think longer term as more of the signals fail (I've a total of 9 on the layout) I'll butcher the mechanism and control them using either servos or Cobalt digital motors, not ideal but I suspect more reliable in the long term. With the benefit of hindsight it's been a very expensive and unreliable way of signalling the layout

 

There are other decoders available that are cheaper, and better at keeping track of the state. On balance though it is probably easier to make Ratio signals work using servos.

[Gwiwer]

In contrast, and despite the fact that several of my OO gauge signals do not actually operate (though the lights illuminate and the arms can be hand-posed) those which do have continued to do so and when tested tonight still do so.  We have just endured four days of temperatures approaching 40C and today that was ended when the humidity reached 100% and 60mm of rain fell in an hour.  Remember my layout is outdoors.

[Godfrey Glyn]

Have been trying these with a normal 12v DC supply and they work and seem to be reliable with this type of supply. A friend has his set up with 6v DC and I understand they happily work with that! Maybe the specification listed in the instructions is wrong?

 

Godfrey

[Suzie]

Voltage has little effect on the mechanics since it is run from a regulated 3V supply internally, but 12V DC is likely to make the light a little bright (11mA) while 6V will make it a little dimmer than designed (3mA). 8mA (average) is what you will get on 16V AC as recommended.

[Gwiwer]

They could do with being somewhat dimmer than they are.  And if they are ever re-released Dapol need to understand the optics of light through a lens and copy the prototype; blue-green not grass-green for proceed and a slightly deeper red which might be achieved by simply dimming the light source though I suspect a different shade in the lens would help.

[Budgie]

Maybe it is time for Dapol to reconsider how these signals work.

 

Let us not forget that Hornby-Dublo was able to make electrically-operated signals in the 1930s, and these signals were solenoid-worked at 16v. AC. So it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to make them today without their suffering constant failures.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Don't forget the early Trix (Twin) electric signals, which also had lighting!

 

They also worked on 3 wires....one for the light, and two to make the signal work....very like the Dapol method.