Southern region services

[Old-sparky]

Dear All,

 

If I can be so cheeky, I would like to seek some info about particular services, starting with a few from the Seventies. Are there any Controllers out there who can help? Starters for ten:

 

- an evening down mail service that used the mail platform at East Croydon and was either loco-hauled or an MLV +BG; where did it run to and from?

 

- a reading - ton bridge service composed of 33+SO+BSK+CK that ran round at Redhill and arrived at Tonbridge mid evening, did I dream this?

 

- Redhill sand trains, did they run out via Reading? I have a photo I took in 1973 of hymek D7017 at Redhill and I think it was on this train.

 

- was there a parcels service on the Hastings line? I have a distinct recollection of an up parcels train headed by a 73, standing in the down platform at Tunbridge Wells Central mid evening, but again I'm wondering if this is false memory syndrome! It seems unlikely, especially as I doubt shoe gear clearances before electrification.

 

- the shunting loco used at Horsham CM&EE depot used to arrive at the dead of night from somewhere, then disappear another night, where did it go to/from for fuelling, Three Bridges? Wherever it went, it went slowly; I remember having the b thing as loco on an engineers train down the mid-Sussex to lay cables and wasting ages upon ages getting to site, and the driver getting fed up with having to hand pump fuel to the header tank.

 

Plenty of conundrums for now.

 

BTW, Westerns definitely did work as far as Redhill on the Ardingly stone trains, a topic that I think has been raised here somewhere before. If I hadn't thrown my notebooks away in a house move, I could cite a few names and dates.

 

All the best, Old-Sparky

[Oldddudders]

I'm a bit rusty on the few bits that I do know, but:

 

The MLV ran ECS from Victoria (E), shunted the vans out of the GPO dock at E Croydon and went away to London Bridge (I think). I'm told that after I moved on in 1973 it was extended to do the same work at Redhill before returning to LB.

 

Redhill sand trains in my memory had a path about 10.32 from Redhill, going variously to Ravenhead and St Helens via Croydon.

 

The Ardingly stone trains had all sorts of hydraulics on them over the early years of the traffic.

 

An EDL off the juice would normally have its shoes retracted, hence probably no clearance issue at TWC.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Reading to Tonbridge via Redhill was a definite. There was a single track line which ran the whole route via Guildford , Gomshall, Shere, Leatherhead. Redhill was a Y junction. I can still remember seeing this train lumbering through Gomshall. It was a 33. About 1965 or 6 as I recall. Single coach with a ticket inspector aboard as all the stations were unmanned.

[eastwestdivide]

- a reading - ton bridge service composed of 33+SO+BSK+CK that ran round at Redhill and arrived at Tonbridge mid evening, did I dream this?

Yes, definitely in 1978-79 ish (although I couldn't swear to the formation, but 33+ a few Mk1s is what I remember)

I think it was a late rush hour extra doing only part of the route of the normal hourly Tonbridge-Redhill (reverse)-Guildford-Reading service which was normally "Tadpole" 3-car DEMUs.

I caught it back in about 78-79, and when we got back to Tonbridge my mate disappeared. Later discovered he'd cabbed the loco as it ran round to go back to the sidings.

And I don't think the line was ever single track (waits for corrections...)

Edit: just found my notes: 6 April 1978, hauled by 33050 from Redhill-Tonbridge, in coach S4392 (SO/TSO). The formation was 4066, 4392, 34638, so no first class then.

[eastwestdivide]

- was there a parcels service on the Hastings line? I have a distinct recollection of an up parcels train headed by a 73, standing in the down platform at Tunbridge Wells Central mid evening, but again I'm wondering if this is false memory syndrome! It seems unlikely, especially as I doubt shoe gear clearances before electrification.

Well the 73s were built to the Hastings gauge, with the slab-sided bodies, and the SR-pattern parcel vans were too.

[Fat Controller]

Not sure about there having been a parcels service on the Tonbridge- Hastings line, but there was a London Bridge- Hastings Newspaper train that lasted until the end of newspaper traffic. Several ex-SR van Bs were retained for this, as there were no other brake vehicles available within the restricted loading gauge for the line.

The Reading-Guildford- Redhill line was double track throughout- ISTR that the GWR and the SER had the idea that this would form a strategic route from the west to Dover and Folkestone avoiding the need to cross London.

[The Stationmaster]

The Reading-Guildford- Redhill line was double track throughout- ISTR that the GWR and the SER had the idea that this would form a strategic route from the west to Dover and Folkestone avoiding the need to cross London.

Indeed - was and is (and is acquiring a new burrowing junction connection at the east end of Reading station which this time round will be able to take passenger trains as part of normal working).

[roundhouse]

There used to be stone trains often hauled by hydraulics, to Merstham in the Seventies when the first part of the M25 was being ubilt. All the sidings at merstham went not long after this first section was completed.

 

Ian

[Fat Controller]

Indeed - was and is (and is acquiring a new burrowing junction connection at the east end of Reading station which this time round will be able to take passenger trains as part of normal working).

Wasn't the burrowing junction a WW2 addition, as the gradient from the SER line to the GW one was too steep for heavy trains?

I went through Reading for the first time in a year last Friday, and was amazed by what had already been done there- all the sidings on the up side had been cleared and levelled.

[The Stationmaster]

Wasn't the burrowing junction a WW2 addition, as the gradient from the SER line to the GW one was too steep for heavy trains?

I went through Reading for the first time in a year last Friday, and was amazed by what had already been done there- all the sidings on the up side had been cleared and levelled.

No - it was in fact much older and had been used by passenger trains in its early days (so I understand) but latterly was all handpoints at the Western end although I think signalled, or partly signalled, at the Southern end and its main use was fro freight transfer shunts. During WWII Special Instructions were put in place by the GWR (and presumably SR) to permit its use by passenger trains but I don't know if they were ever used and in any case it was rendered superfluous after the new connection from Reading New Jcn (GWR) to Reading Spur Jcn (SR) was brought into use.

[Old-sparky]

Gentlemen,

 

Many thanks, some really interesting stuff coming to the surface here, jogged lots of memories.

 

Regarding first class on the Reading-Tonbridge Line, my recollection was that it was a "second class only" route in the 70s, which meant that when there was first accomodation in the train, one could use it "gratis".

 

All the talk of the SR-WR connections at Reading reminds me of possibly the coldest night of my life. We had a train layng cable from the SR to the grid substation, which is on the GWR. We did part of the work, then were "parked" on the connecting line. Our loco, crew and guard departed for the comforts of Woking depot, and were supposed to be replaced by WR men and loco, but the GWR had forgotten us! After much 'phoning, a loco had to be sent from Old Oak, and a guard raised from his slumbers in deepest Wiltshire, which took half the night. I sent the gang back to somewhere warm, but I had to wait with the train, which meant a brakevan in which no fire would burn unless the train was moving (no "draw") in a temperature of about minus ten. The handrails on the cable wagons were encrusted with ice, like glass.

 

All the best, Old-Sparky

[eastwestdivide]

 

- the shunting loco used at Horsham CM&EE depot used to arrive at the dead of night from somewhere, then disappear another night, where did it go to/from for fuelling, Three Bridges? Wherever it went, it went slowly; I remember having the b thing as loco on an engineers train down the mid-Sussex to lay cables and wasting ages upon ages getting to site, and the driver getting fed up with having to hand pump fuel to the header tank.

The ICRS book Shunter Duties from about 1979/80 lists a duty for a Selhurst-allocated shunter at Horsham Yard weekdays and Sat mornings, returning to Three Bridges Sat midday for the rest of the weekend.

[Southernman46]

Gentlemen,

 

Many thanks, some really interesting stuff coming to the surface here, jogged lots of memories.

 

Regarding first class on the Reading-Tonbridge Line, my recollection was that it was a "second class only" route in the 70s, which meant that when there was first accomodation in the train, one could use it "gratis".

 

All the talk of the SR-WR connections at Reading reminds me of possibly the coldest night of my life. We had a train layng cable from the SR to the grid substation, which is on the GWR. We did part of the work, then were "parked" on the connecting line. Our loco, crew and guard departed for the comforts of Woking depot, and were supposed to be replaced by WR men and loco, but the GWR had forgotten us! After much 'phoning, a loco had to be sent from Old Oak, and a guard raised from his slumbers in deepest Wiltshire, which took half the night. I sent the gang back to somewhere warm, but I had to wait with the train, which meant a brakevan in which no fire would burn unless the train was moving (no "draw") in a temperature of about minus ten. The handrails on the cable wagons were encrusted with ice, like glass.

 

All the best, Old-Sparky

 

I was on that job !!

 

Laying a new oil-filled 33kV cable into the Grid - 1981ish? Supervisor Bob Martin (??) and large gang of Kilburns' finest Irish labour .......

[Old-sparky]

Thanks eastwestdivide, fits with what i recall.

 

Well, well southernman46, yes exactly. I was one of the young engineers who did a few possesions when Bob, Bill or (who was the third?) were elsewhere. So, im thinking, who else was on the job who might also be modelling SR ........... JH, JMcC,......... or I vaguely recall a grad trainee being with me on that night, who I hear was a bit of a gricer on the side.

[Southernman46]

Thanks eastwestdivide, fits with what i recall.

or I vaguely recall a grad trainee being with me on that night, who I hear was a bit of a gricer on the side.

 

That's me................Student Engineering Technician - all wet behind the ears. Returned to the section in 1989 as a Project Engineer and stayed until the BR break-up in 1994...........

 

I think Brian Martin was the third "cable route supervisor" ??

 

THE "JMcC" ?? - I had no idea he was a modeller !!! I've scratch-built 4 Parrot cable-layers and converted some Parkside Tube's and SR "B" parcels vans to re-create Horsham troughing & cable trains - happy days !!

[StuartM]

I used to use the Tonbridge to reading line quite a bit back in the mid 70's as teenager and most services at the time were Tadpole units. I always preferred to travel in the hastings unit portion of the train as it was more comfortable that the emu portion. I remember one time the service being replaced with a class 33 and some mk1 hauled stock and the driver was kind enough to let me cabride all the way from Tonbridge to redhill where the train truned around and departed the oehter way for Guilford and where the crew changed.

 

Re the parcels service you might find this link "of interest"

http://www.stuartmoore-modelrailways.co.uk/demu%20oxted%20thumper%20unit.htm

[Oldddudders]

Re the parcels service you might find this link "of interest"

http://www.stuartmoo...mper%20unit.htm

Full marks for imagination and effort!

[Old-sparky]

More good stuff, that n-gauge model had me fooled for a few minutes when I first saw it some while back.

 

Southerman46 - i've racked my brains and I can remember Bob, Bill, Ted and Alan. Yes, surprising as it may seem, JMcC is a modeller, recently in n-gauge. I bumped into him at an exhibition about four years ago. Any chance of seeing photos of the Horsham models? You could move on to build the "Red Baron" and Atlas cranes, and filth-up a Hornby Maunsell coach to be the "doss house" that preceded the proper accomodation block.

 

BTW, all this seemingly random information seeking is heading towards a layout, probably an "extract" of Redhill (not enough room for the full thing). I haven't done any small scale modelling for at least 15 years, having moved up to 1:20 scale models of Irish 3ft gauge, so there will be a steep re-learning curve (and a magifying glass) involved.

 

Regards, OS