Debs. Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is yet-another thread that I`m really enjoying following; such interesting info. and recollections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Aye - "split points" due to a combination of poor switch blade maintenance and iffy wheel flanges is a far more common problem......... within 6 months after I had moved on from TSM @ Clapham, "they" managed to derail at least three separate trains in the throat at Waterloo (fortunately without serious consequences) due to indifferent switch blade repairs and poor follow-up inspection procedures, prompting large scale changes to the maintenance regime under "053" (the NR standard for inspection & maintenance of switchblade to prevent derailment). Keeping the switch blades in that area aquedately inspected & maintained was certainly one of the greatest challenges of my career and was something you could never take your eye off the ball with............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2012 Aye - "split points" due to a combination of poor switch blade maintenance and iffy wheel flanges is a far more common problem......... within 6 months after I had moved on from TSM @ Clapham, "they" managed to derail at least three separate trains in the throat at Waterloo (fortunately without serious consequences) due to indifferent switch blade repairs and poor follow-up inspection procedures, prompting large scale changes to the maintenance regime under "053" (the NR standard for inspection & maintenance of switchblade to prevent derailment). Keeping the switch blades in that area aquedately inspected & maintained was certainly one of the greatest challenges of my career and was something you could never take your eye off the ball with............ That was, in my experience, a rare occurrence on running lines on the Western (Note *) but it was almost an everyday event in some yards where a lot of the fitting work was very old. However it didn't just happen with old stuff - at Westbury a whole ladder of leads was relaid in the Up Yard by contractors who apparently used far more 'recovered serviceable' material than they were supposed to and within days heavy axleloads (they said) were responsible for taking slices out of the top of closed switch rail ends leading to several derailments; almost all the switch rails had to be changed for new material. Note * But oddly it was the direct cause of the worst derailment I ever had to deal with - and it was loaded hoppers which delivered the coup de grace on that occasion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The last derailment I attended whilst at Woking involved a Clss 455 being derailed coming out of Plat 2 at Guildford........one of those "window of opportunity derailments" The train started away against a red signal - at exactly the same instant that the Signaller was attempting to set the route for it (which involved moving the switches just beyond the signal). The train arrived at the switches just as they were swinging over, resulting in the left hand leading wheel striking the the LH switch tip (a moving cross-section of 12mm ish being hit by a 75mm ish wheel - pretty unlucky) with the consequence that the wheel rode up over the blade into derailment. A few mlli-seconds later and there would have been no derailment just a train running away against adverse signals (there was potential for a collision but no approaching train on the opposite line), a few seconds later and the train would have gone down both roads derailing or the train would have just locked the approach T/C preventing the point moving........... Railways eh ? always interesting .......................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is yet-another thread that I`m really enjoying following; such interesting info. and recollections. I am always in two minds about the things I post in such circs. It can seem like some sort of boast - and may not always be a direct contribution to the sum of the thread's knowledge. I believe there are other railwaymen/women on here who could furnish bigger and better stories, but who modestly choose not to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2012 I am always in two minds about the things I post in such circs. It can seem like some sort of boast - and may not always be a direct contribution to the sum of the thread's knowledge. I believe there are other railwaymen/women on here who could furnish bigger and better stories, but who modestly choose not to. What often surprises me is the extent to which folk are interested in the everyday and mundane - something a bit out of the ordinary is understandable but, as you say, could easily come across as boasting or, unavoidably have more than a touch of 'I was there' about it; not an easy area I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Not a bit - don't forget "we" have done things on the operational railway that others outside the industry will have no experience of and that makes it interesting to them.............as I find your "Tales from the Operational Riverbank" interesting having spent all but a couple of years of my career in engineering & maintenance. Inevitably it could be seen be seen as boasting by some (but isn't that just driven by an element of jealousy)? but hey we were there....... Whilst attending a Railway Engineering Degree course over a number of years recently and being the Senior "Railwayman" by some years, I gained the epitath "Uncle Albert" for the "war" stories told Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The Royal Duchy mainline and branches has an assortment of point locking methods ranging from Track Circuits to Axle Counters (Penryn), FPLs and good old using your peepers! Have to take lots of care bringing a class 66 x 38 CDAs out of loops / sidings with only the protecting signal lever and black point lever as your protection! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adanapress Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I seem to recall that axle counters cause no end of problems when the controllers are trying to re-arrange and re-start services after some relatively minor dtisturbance from normal running.sequence. like say when theres been a SPAD and someone has to set back a long way, to re-start. Call in the buses seems to be an alternative and regrettably popular solution, still, if you let bus folk own the set-up I suppose etc etc .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 I am always in two minds about the things I post in such circs. It can seem like some sort of boast - and may not always be a direct contribution to the sum of the thread's knowledge. I believe there are other railwaymen/women on here who could furnish bigger and better stories, but who modestly choose not to. You may have noticed that I ask quite a few of these questions. We have a marvellous resource on here of past and present railwaymen. I tend to be more interested in the "steam age" railway, which of course did not die with the steam engines (although my interest did start to decline). I try to pump my 86 year old uncle (top link driver from York) whenever I see him, and he does have some good tales to tell, but he isn't/wasn't an "enthusiast" as such. He started work at Rowntrees but moved to the Railway after a couple of weeks because they paid about a bob a week more! Anyway, many thanks go to all those who take the trouble to reply, and for being tolerant of my ignorance. Cheers Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 What often surprises me is the extent to which folk are interested in the everyday and mundane - something a bit out of the ordinary is understandable but, as you say, could easily come across as boasting or, unavoidably have more than a touch of 'I was there' about it; not an easy area I think. Quite. I do occasionally start typing stories then think 'shut up, no-one wants to hear you prattling on' and delete them. However, with my aero-modelling hat on my ex-RAF mate is getting used to emails from me asking what colour his overalls were in 1977, or when he started wearing hi-viz on the flightline, or whether the RAFP guarding his Vulcan carried a sterling or an SLR etc etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 One potential advantage of being on the inside was the occasional opportunity to meet folk from the really old railway and hopefully find out a bit about it. But quite often it was like drawing teeth! Back in the very late 1970s I met a retired Driver who had started his GWR career as a Cleaner at Westbourne Park - but he couldn't tell me anything about the move to the new depot at Old Oak as he'd gone away to Tyseley for his firing job not long before Old Oak opened. Anyway he came back to Old Oak while it was still relatively new but all he could talk about was the fact that Firemen got a locker - a marvellous and clearly memorable step forward but a hint that those doing the job or working at so & so don't always see or recall the things which might interest a historian or modeller. But talking to 'Billy' Wells, who drove the GW 2-8-0 in the 1948 loco exchanges, was a much more interesting conversation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 One potential advantage of being on the inside was the occasional opportunity to meet folk from the really old railway and hopefully find out a bit about it......................a hint that those doing the job or working at so & so don't always see or recall the things which might interest a historian or modeller. A very old-friend of mine (and I know, a friend of others on here too): has been recorded for posterity on the Edge Hill Station history website.......Dennis Flood`s recollections of his early footplate career on Merseyside are wonderful, and are very engaging; surely well-worth the 20 minute listen. I worked with him at Birkenhead Shed in my footplate-years and what a skilled and knowledgeable driver and kindly character he was. http://edgehillstati...s/dennis-flood/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I seem to recall that axle counters cause no end of problems when the controllers are trying to re-arrange and re-start services after some relatively minor dtisturbance from normal running.sequence. like say when theres been a SPAD and someone has to set back a long way, to re-start. Call in the buses seems to be an alternative and regrettably popular solution, still, if you let bus folk own the set-up I suppose etc etc .... I can't recall any problems of the type you describe after a SPAD or service disruption. Most times we have failures is after possessions where road/rail vehicles have been put on or taken off in an A/C section. The S&T come along and reset them after an assurance from the PICOP that the section is clear. One time after a relaying job, the first train after the possession left two A/C sections showing occupied (down). The S&T reset them, the next train also left them down. The S&T went into the tunnel to investigate and found that the axle counter head for the sections was still on an old piece of rail that had been removed and was in the cess waiting for collection the next night. The cables were all still attached. There was a bit of an a**e kicking competition after that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 A very old-friend of mine (and I know, a friend of others on here too): has been recorded for posterity on the Edge Hill Station history website.......Dennis Flood`s recollections of his early footplate career on Merseyside are wonderful, and are very engaging; surely well-worth the 20 minute listen. I worked with him at Birkenhead Shed in my footplate-years and what a skilled and knowledgeable driver and kindly character he was. http://edgehillstati...s/dennis-flood/ That reminds me - I must give him a nudge about my long promised cab ride . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 Talking of axle counter resets reminds me of a little job I did a few years back - as a sort of 'guinea pig'/ tester. Off i went to Vaughan Harmon's place in Hertford (maybe their name had changed by then, not sure) to do some 'operator testing' on their screens (and locking) which were going into Stoke as part of the West Coast upgrade work. Apart from giving it a 'live testing by a railway bloke' the bunch I worked for also sent along some ergonomics expert to observe how I interfaced with the screens and mouse etc - which was great as it was a nice east chair and a smashing industrial standard combined mouse and tracker ball which worked like a dream proc/vided you used it instead of the stuff fixed into the desk. Anyway away I went setting and cancelling routes after a couple of minutes training - all very intuitive so the 'how would you convert to it' human factors bit was a load of ticks. After lunch we got to failures and the whole area was going to be axle counters and I was absolutely appalled - all you had to do was enter a very simple code, basically logging the fault, and make two clicks with the mouse and you could reset every axle counter in a defined area. It was so easy to do, and virtually do it without any conscious effort or pause for thought, that I suggested they needed to rethink because in my view the risk of a Signalman under pressure at a busy period accidentally resetting an axle counter was very high - and he needed no check or intervention by anybody else, just a few mouse clicks and enter a fault code. I understand that it was modified before delivery to site as the local operating people also got very upset when they found out how easily a signalman could reset the axle counters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I understand that it was modified before delivery to site as the local operating people also got very upset when they found out how easily a signalman could reset the axle counters. Sounds like a modern equivalent of the Sykes cancelling key! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 Sounds like a modern equivalent of the Sykes cancelling key! In a way - but the good bit was that when I drew their (the VH design folk) attention to it they said - 'well there is a complete record on the system of the action taken by the operator' So that would be alright then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 In a way - but the good bit was that when I drew their (the VH design folk) attention to it they said - 'well there is a complete record on the system of the action taken by the operator' So that would be alright then To put it another way. "Don't worry if it goes wrong, we've got the name of the person you need to hang out to dry." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 One time after a relaying job, the first train after the possession left two A/C sections showing occupied (down). The S&T reset them, the next train also left them down. The S&T went into the tunnel to investigate and found that the axle counter head for the sections was still on an old piece of rail that had been removed and was in the cess waiting for collection the next night. The cables were all still attached. I had an instance where the Pway went ahead and changed a defective rail in jointed track after we told them there was no available S&T cover for the job. A few days later I was walking through the section and spotted the old rail sitting in the fourfoot, still bonded to the rails either side and the new rail in position without any bonding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Edge Hill CS By P Jump by Jobs A Joke, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie_pudd Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 This is yet-another thread that I`m really enjoying following; such interesting info. and recollections. I fully agree with Debs as for us that have never worked in the rail industry, that what is/was everyday mundane to you is very interesting detailing of the inner workings. As the OP asked what stops it is something ive never thought about before. I am always in two minds about the things I post in such circs. It can seem like some sort of boast - and may not always be a direct contribution to the sum of the thread's knowledge. I believe there are other railwaymen/women on here who could furnish bigger and better stories, but who modestly choose not to. What often surprises me is the extent to which folk are interested in the everyday and mundane - something a bit out of the ordinary is understandable but, as you say, could easily come across as boasting or, unavoidably have more than a touch of 'I was there' about it; not an easy area I think. Not a bit - don't forget "we" have done things on the operational railway that others outside the industry will have no experience of and that makes it interesting to them.............as I find your "Tales from the Operational Riverbank" interesting having spent all but a couple of years of my career in engineering & maintenance. Inevitably it could be seen be seen as boasting by some (but isn't that just driven by an element of jealousy)? but hey we were there....... Whilst attending a Railway Engineering Degree course over a number of years recently and being the Senior "Railwayman" by some years, I gained the epitath "Uncle Albert" for the "war" stories told Boasting- not one bit dudders, its sharing the internal behind the scenes running that those outside and just ride on the system dont think about, Typical example just watch the current BBC 2 serious The Tube - were a 1 under or a power failure etc and watch folk scream at staff how crap they for no service - simply because they have no inside understanding of the rail network. For me the info on points/lights workings you guys/girls have given here, gives me a better understanding insight in relation to pointwork for my current planned rail layout if at a future point i decide to add lights. so that points/lights work in unison route setting as you guys put it. In relation i could say the same about international trucking driving as most just think oh big dirty trucks hog the road. not realising that what folk think is a local product is not really local, or how 1 euro rule is used in different ways by each country or even by different provinces within one country. i could boast say about all the things we use to do to get the job done and backhanders you got for it, but thats just info on how things were done is not boasting. That things improve to make it harder to be done the old ways as you guys have worked in different areas and how things were done different yet supposedly for the same company. if someone said - oh when i worked at signal box A - i saw or made a mistake that required in a second to throw some points to derail a loco with 6 wagons causing a mess, would be just info on workings and everyday human mishappens.......... but the same person saying the same story oh i saw this mistake and then goes into song and dance of .... but then i realised 3 express were due and i had to fight the points to derail the runaway to save lifes yap yap yap is boasting. All comes down too if you aint worked in the industry then you wont know without asking. If you have worked in it then your just passing on info of the history of that area you worked in...... bang goes my theory of a man running around with a pole to switch and hold them in place lol. Going back to olddudders post # 50 of the london bridge platform. You mean to tell me this wasnt early design planning testing for the future failed APT tilt system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I had an instance where the Pway went ahead and changed a defective rail in jointed track after we told them there was no available S&T cover for the job. A few days later I was walking through the section and spotted the old rail sitting in the fourfoot, still bonded to the rails either side and the new rail in position without any bonding. Hmmmm - this wasn't in East Anglia by any chance ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Edge Hill CS By P Jump by Jobs A Joke, on Flickr "Lots of paperwork!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2012 "Lots of paperwork!" "I hate these OO clearances with finescale flanges" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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