Black Country Blues

[2ManySpams]

No problem - although I now want a pannier tank for our industrial branch.........will it fit over the bridge?

 

Not a chance....

[Stubby47]

I've been having a think...

 

As drawn on the maps, the branch canal route is mirrored by a small road to the south. According to  Ol' Shanks' story, small businesses started to appear along this new canal, between the canal and the road, . Would it be fair to say these would have only been built alongside the canal to enable them to use the canal ?

 

If that is the case, would the buildings have had direct canal access, without the inconvenience of the towpath being in the way ?

 

[2ManySpams]

On the Ryders Green flight of 8 locks that is one of our inspirations, there's industry on both sides of the canal. The old maps show the occasional short arm off the main route to service industry. Having walked down the flight, on the towpath side I didn't see sign of big patched gateways, only the occasional blocked doorway into what might have been courtyards. Having worked (holiday) narrowboats up locks, you really want as few moored up boats as possible in your way. The pounds between locks are needed to store queuing boats (of which there would have been loads more at the canal peak) and the towpaths for the passing hoss(es) and ropes. Our towpath is on the same side as the buildings and it looks like narrowboats mooring up to unload would have been unlikely. Our timeline history is evolving as all the pieces fit together - perhaps we need to say the industry is road served but backing on to the cut boundary?

 

 

Down the cut near Albion there's also this example of a doorway onto the towpath.

 

 

[trisonic]

I'm still worried about the demise of the "Cow Pie".....

 

Surely your group single-handedly made millionaires of any Black Country piemen?

 

Best, Pete.

 

PS Super video, by the way. Informative and entertaining - Music I hear?

Edited November 22, 2012 by trisonic

[Stubby47]

Chris,

So the industry for which the expensive canal with locks branch was built is higher up the valley ( and off stage ) so the Millwards etc businesses aren't connected to the canal because it's inpractical to moor barges in the pounds or obviously in the locks themselves.

 

In which case there must have been a reason to build the road so close to the canal ( as opposed to next to to allow unrestricted building to the south) - where does the road go ?

 

The businesses started in 1800-1805 would have been small, not needed the canal, but would have needed some sort of power ( coal furnace ?). Later replacement industries could use electricity, these being more around the start of the 20thC.

 

So would( could) a derelict building have had a small furnace & chimney ( chimnies being strangley absent from a Black Country layout...)

Edited November 22, 2012 by Stubby47

[Mark Forrest]

It's like a wagon 'spot the difference'. I'll print out the photos and get the kids to circle the missing bits.

Straight to the naughty step if they don't spot which ones have Oleos!

[Fat Controller]

Nice to see someone else doing Twin Bolsters, Mark. I've done a few pairs ;apart from the ex-Lowfits, I've an ex-Conflat set and an ex-Single Bolster set. The problem I'm yet to solve is finding a suitably resilient bar-coupling; perhaps brass bar?

In the late-60s, Llanelly Steel/Duport used to send a train of these every day to Great Bridge. I have fond memories of watching them 'race' past Old Castle Crossing, hauled by the 08 pilot as far as Llandeilo Junction yard.

[DonB]

When I did a short history of the works sidings, I found lots of old catalogues dating from the late 1890s to about 1910. The majority had engraved pictures rather than photos, most with an aerial-type impression of the works involved on the cover. Every one had chimneys, every one depicted belching thick smoke -- just to show how busy they were! As far as I could check only chimneys which actually existed were depicted.

 

I would suggest a partly demolished and concrete capped chimney in the area behind "that wall", (far right corner?) say about 2-3" tall, with a prototype 4ft. square base of Blue Brick (what else?) to the chimney shoulder, square construction of the stack was probably cheaper than circular to build. It would need (remains of ?) a bunker for the coal/coke, and a fire-door in the base (broken off with an urchin investigating?)

 

Stubby,--- You write "chimnies" , my spell checker says "chimneys" but I think ,based on my recollection of a Grammar School education, that you are correct! And yes there should be lots of them on the layout!

[Mark Forrest]

The problem I'm yet to solve is finding a suitably resilient bar-coupling; perhaps brass bar?

Yes, brass bar would work; something like 1mm x 0.5mm section; however, not having such exotic materials to hand when I built the first pair of these a few years ago, I went for a length of nickel silver bullhead rail, with the webs filed down so it was a loose (but not too sloppy) fit through the headstocks. One end was bent over, a spare spring from a Smiths three link coupling fitted and a short length of brass wire soldered at the other end; like:

 

I think I copied this from something I had seen Tony Wright use for loco-tender couplings in a BRM kit build article. It has proven to be very reliable and I'll be using something similar for this next batch of twin bolsters. Might even use a split pin, although I've never had a need to separate the wagons so the permanent coupling hasn't been an issue.

 

I've also started a couple of conflat based conversions, but more on them some other time...

[Arthur]

This is probably the level crossing of the NCB line with a private road or farm track mentioned by Arthur, east of Astley Green Colliery.

 

Thanks Philip, that is the one, excellent photograph as usual!

 

 

Just some thoughts about the line itself;

I think it highly unlikely that the private line would have been maintained by the main line company, and, as has been suggested, the steelworks would have furnished the materials and fixtures themselves.

 

The suggested timeline has the line laid in 1875, the works at that time would have been able to roll its own wrought iron rails, and from 1888 through to about the 1950s, its own steel rails and fishplate section. They’d have been standard rolled products featured in the company section book (trade catalogue). They feature in every section book I have, from a wide range of steel companies, Round Oak would be a local example. Lancashire Steel for instance, by no means a specialist rail roller, features several weights of flat bottom, bullhead, tramway and conductor sections, several fishplate sections and a patent clip fastener for steel sleepers. It’s even possible, certainly in the early days, that they could have cast the chairs in their own foundry. Making and repairing crossing gates would have been done in house, even in wood. These works were highly self sufficient.

 

Remember that the line is linked to a works which would have been maintaining several miles of internal railways. Without doubt it would have had its own plate laying department and railway, general engineering and joinery workshops. Round Oak again, for example, certainly did. They were among the largest of industrial undertakings in their day, and equipping and maintaining a mile or two of their own track would be a relatively minor task. It was only with the BSC rationalisation in the late 70s, and following the general trend in industry, that they would have started to farm out some of these support activities.

[TheSignalEngineer]

No problem - although I now want a pannier tank for our industrial branch.........will it fit over the bridge?

On its way behind a blue 47 http://www.flickr.com/photos/60790501@N04/5793620262/in/photostream/

[Shadow]

Is it too late in the day to add a small private spur/basin?

 

 

It could be disused like this one.

 

 

Grand Union Canal for SK5705

 

A view of the frog island area in Leicester. Half of the flour mill can be seen.

SK5705 : Industry on the Grand Union Canal

 

© Copyright Ashley Dace and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

 

 

Dave

[2ManySpams]

It has crossed my mind...

[avonside1563]

This is an industrial branch - no passenger service, and irregular trips from the sidings. There is presumably a gradient from those sidings, thus the uphill trains will not be going very fast, and the return trip will be taking it gently downhill, awaiting acceptance back into the sidings. I imagine the ruling linespeed will not exceed 30 mph? That, and the much lower maintenance and inspection regime on such a line, should mean that the issue of refuges just goes away, anyway.

 

The maximum speed on the branch is likely to be more like 20mph as most industrial diesel locos are geared to around this sort of maximum speed.

[avonside1563]

Just catching up on this thread regarding the industrial branch level crossing.

 

The level crossing at Foxfield is over a minor public road and has always had gates to close it to road traffic as required as it is approached down a 1 in 35 gradient which would have been descended by the loaded trains. This crossing has always been manned by a crossing keeper who was provided with a little brick hut alongside the line to sit in whilst awaiting the next train. We also have a private road crossing at Foxfield and this is not gated, it just has warning signs to appease the inspectors of things railway.

 

The line to Littleton Colliery at Cannock also crossed a minor public road at Hatherton sidings near Penkridge, alongside the M6, and was also gated although in this case these were worked by the shunter who accompanied the trains.

 

However the line from Baddesley Colliery, near Atherstone and famous for its Garratt - William Francis, crossed the A5 near the exchange sidings by an ungated crossing protected by a flagman and was doing so well into the 1960s.

 

My own view is that as it is a private road crossing a private railway which will be running at low speeds (i.e. probably around 15mph) then gates would not have been deemed necessary, although the steel works would probably have provided something knocked up in their workshops to operate much as has been outlined by The Stationmaster - along the lines of an occupation crossing with gates being normally closed to road traffic and opening away from the railway.

[Shadow]

Looking at the crossing photo.

 

Are the two posts highlighted in red for foot use?

And the two in blue for the larger road traffic?

 

 

 

Looks like the blue / road traffic ones have cross support/guys/whatever they're called fitted.

 

Like this.

 

(Copyright of Roger Griffith, copied from Wikipedia)

 

Dave

Edited November 22, 2012 by Shadow

[DonB]

I posted a note in the Timeline thread too, about chimneys (sic).

There is a reference in post #17 in that thread (

) to a picture resembling "that wall". The building housed a Trap Maker - a specialized Blacksmith really, but using presses to aid production, and make a bit of noise and vibration to loosen the wall's brickwork.

Just an indication of what the wall might have looked like during it's earlier years.

[avonside1563]

A start was made on the base for the lock chambers last night, two pieces of mdf cut to size for the base and some 1"x1.5" timber cut to give a solid back to the lock chamber walls and the top entrance walls. The idea is to line these to the appropriate dimensions for the internal lock chamber and then sink them into the rest of the scenics to finish off the surrounding lock area. These give the chamber to the bottom gate, which will be on the board joint, the tail of the lock will be on the adjoining board and therefore built separately.

[DonB]

Referring to business location alongside canals, it would have been rare for access across the tow path, due to needing to lift the Hosses' tow rope over any stationary barge, or working party, with consequent delays. In the "good old days" of the canal's hay-day, it would be quite usual to see a child in charge of the Hoss with parent at the tiller. The problem of lifting perhaps 20 feet of wet rope by a child is self-evident.

Businesses with canal access seemed to be on the non-tow path side or part of a separate wharf complex. The exception would likely be to a courtyard (as mentioned elsewhere in the BCB threads) leading to a pub for the canal folk to slake their thirsts, and indulge in a punch-up!

[DonB]

Looking at references elsewhere in the BCB threads, I came across this picture:- http://www.facebook....pe=1&permPage=1

It made me wonder if in addition to the Canals, any thought had been given to other water-ways, ditches, streams etc. Most canals were built following contours where practical to replace streams or to be close by to use them to discharge excess water.

Edit:-

But I don't think that this photo would be a feature of the canals that BCB would want to include!

Edited November 22, 2012 by DonB

[DonB]

An aside here, When you have finished "that wall" etc, and are looking for a new urban-grot challenge, have a look at this short Pathe video of Dudley. The crooked houses in the last half minute could sum up my standard of modelling!!

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/crooked-houses-dudley/query/Dudley

[Stubby47]

Referring to business location alongside canals, it would have been rare for access across the tow path, due to needing to lift the Hosses' tow rope over any stationary barge, or working party, with consequent delays. In the "good old days" of the canal's hay-day, it would be quite usual to see a child in charge of the Hoss with parent at the tiller. The problem of lifting perhaps 20 feet of wet rope by a child is self-evident.

Businesses with canal access seemed to be on the non-tow path side or part of a separate wharf complex. The exception would likely be to a courtyard (as mentioned elsewhere in the BCB threads) leading to a pub for the canal folk to slake their thirsts, and indulge in a punch-up!

This was partly my reason for my earlier musing - plus Mark has also given a very similar answer in another of the BCB threads (about businesses not operating over the towpath).

 

I like the idea of a disused chimney (not sure about plurals, I thought 'chimneys' was correct after I saw it) in the derelict building. Plus a foirge and some where to keep the fuel ( again going back to the earlier suggestion of a glass works, this idea was sort of proposed then, although the concensus ( well, Chris) thought the industry would be too big for the plot.

 

Will have a further look at all the recent links (THANKS ALL) and cogitate some more...

Edited November 22, 2012 by Stubby47

[2ManySpams]

Beautiful Don, looks like a fractal or a living organism.

[2ManySpams]

Evening all

 

I had a chat to Sandside (Jason of Bacup fame) at the Loughborough Show and, lo, it came to pass he offered to build something for us...

 

Now I've been busy tracking down building subjects for the other BCB volunteers and keeping an eye open for something nice for Jason. I did PM him a suggestion but, to be honest, it's a bit of a dull wall. So I've been looking for something a bit more rewarding for him. My current thought is that he needs somewhere for his famed Britannia Coconut Dancers to live (another story), something that was a bit posh but has seen better days. Something that hints at the Iron Master's residence that is off-board but justifies a private road.

 

Something that fits the bill would be the sort of minor, lodge house that a wealthy industrialist may have built at the gateway to his fake old country residence. The problem at the moment is finding real inspiration. I strongly suspect there were a fair few of these in the Black Country, in the greener bits away from the muck and dirt, but that as the urban sprawl spread they were swallowed up. The area became not as desirable and the country house got surrounded by development. The site may have been sold, redeveloped, but perhaps the lodge survived in private hands - a shadow of it's importance....

 

Just mulling ideas over at the moment but the site could potentially be circled below.

 

Any ideas about a suitable subject or if the scenario is likely?

 

Answers on a post!

 

Edit: After three pages of deliberation i think we've now found something suitable in use, scale and size. The current idea is to do something based on the cart shed pictured below and discussed on this post. So if you want to miss out all the diversions, then click on the link.

[Coombe Barton]

You could do a chapel - one of the minor sects because of size - they were often built on unwanted bits of ground, donated. Corners of fields, junctions of tracks - that couldn't be built on or farmed effectively.

 

http://blackcountryh...GB146_PHS_4245/

 

http://blackcountryh.../DMUSE_1979_75/

 

http://blackcountryh.../DMUSE_1979_64/

 

http://blackcountryh...GB146_PHS_5179/

 

http://www.wolvesmet....html#Parkfield

 

http://www.wolvesmet...2005/index.html

 

http://www.blackcoun...s.php?album=178

 

All these seems to around the size of the site.

 

And then the chapel could have been sold off for other uses - this happened all over the country after 1932, and important event in the nonconformist movement as they mainly buried the hatchet and reunited, having had schism into different sects for a century or so. If there were a number of 'competing' chapels in the area there was a rationalisation.

 

But for a gatehouse

 

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB146_PHS_2941/

 

Or is the road grand enough for a Toll House?

 

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB146_PHS_2540/

 

Or shall I stop now?

Edited November 22, 2012 by Coombe Barton