Black Country Blues

[Stubby47]

Finally got the left side wall 'rendered'. Just the rear one to do. I'm also tidying up the corners, prior to a few photos. The floor of the workshop has been done, plus the inside of the rear wall. Am now contemplating how to add the upper floor and internal walls to provide some light boxes for the LEDs.

 

Still can't decide what the other building would have been for - one idea was a Working Men's Institute, but if possible I'd like to incorporate some sort of canal-orientated activity (would this have occured across the towpath ?) which would mean I'd need some larger canal-facing doors (or blocked up-doorways).

Edited November 20, 2012 by Stubby47

[wagonbasher]

Finally got the left side wall 'rendered'. Just the rear one to do. I'm also tidying up the corners, prior to a few photos. The floor of the workshop has been done, plus the inside of the rear wall. Am now contemplating how to add the upper floor and internal walls to provide some light boxes for the LEDs.

 

Still can't decide what the other building would have been for - one idea was a Working Men's Institute, but if possible I'd like to incorporate some sort of canal-orientated activity (would this have occured across the towpath ?) which would mean I'd need some larger canal-facing doors (or blocked up-doorways).

 

You can never say never but this question arose in earlier threads. There seam very few industries that access the canal across the towpath. Access is either on the no tow path side or via a private canal arm with a roving bridge over the top.

 

I can think of some British waterways workshop / stables that were on the towpath side but otherwise I am struggling.

 

Just a thought, driving around Bilston this luchtime there are a few low walls that are remains of factories and they always have faded / missing paint on the inside wall.

 

A

[2ManySpams]

Evening all,

 

Question for those with more knowledge than me on the requirements for level crossings on an industrial line. Our scenario has it that we have a private track that passes over the mainline on an accommodation bridge (yellow arrow). This track then continues towards the rear of the board and crosses our industrial line at-grade (red arrow). So we have a little used private track crossing a private industrial line.

 

 

A few questions.

 

1. When the industrial line was built (c1880), what would have been provided in terms of gates / manning / accommodation (blue arrow) for manning.

2. In our first chosen period (1970s) what would be required - would it be an ungated / unmanned crossing?

 

We're trying to work out what (if any) gates would have been in use; whether there would have been a crossing keeper's hut; and what condition this would be in many years after building.

 

Any help / thoughts / opinions welcome.

[2ManySpams]

I thought it was now standard to use full drinks cans as bridge testing devices...

 

On a more practical note... (who, me ? ), would the bridge have had any personnel relief sections ? There does not seem to be much clearance between the loco and the sides. GWR locos might well be even wider.

 

Stu

 

If you think ours is narrow have a look at the 5th photo down...here

[Shadow]

What about this as an idea?

 

 

 

© Copyright Alan Murray-Rust and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

 

See link below for Titford Pump House and Tat Bank top lock

 

http://www.geograph....uk/photo/410258

Edited November 20, 2012 by Shadow

[KevinWalsh]

Chris,

 

There is some footage on a DVD (One of the Glory Days of Steam series I think) of an NCB line crossing a C class road where the line has gates across it when not in use and these are opened by the secondman/shunter on the shunting engine at the same time as he signals traffic to halt, after the train has crossed he closes the gates and runs to catch up with the slow moving train and re-boards the shunting loco.

 

Hope this helps with the decision making

 

Kev

[Shadow]

Stubby,

 

Just came across this photo. Very atmospheric for what you want.

 

http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/OtherTrades/BCN/Union.htm

 

Dave

[2ManySpams]

A special "hello" to Mike (Grandpa Bess) - you've found the rest of the threads - see we have been busy!

[Stubby47]

Thanks for that Dave, it's certainly food for thought.

 

My dilemma is how to incorporate the wall with the filled in windows and metal strengthers into a suitable building. I still can't work out why they would be needed, what sort of structure would the building have been.

 

 

[Coombe Barton]

My dilemma is how to incorporate the wall with the filled in windows and metal strengthers into a suitable building. I still can't work out why they would be needed, what sort of structure would the building have been.

Some sort of machine shop/workshop that had suffered wartime damage and had the windows blown out - so they bricked them up and converted it into a store?

[Stubby47]

John, that's a great explanation !

 

I had envisaged that behind the roadside windows were offices, which, once the building was unoccupied, were bricked up because the glass was being constantly broken.

 

But, back-dating that change to post-war would, as you've suggested, give the building a second lease of life as a store.

 

So, maybe I can use it as part of Millwards.

 

Chris, how about some roof struts still in place, as the dereliction is not quite down to the levels of 2012 ?

[Coombe Barton]

John, that's a great explanation !

Not original - I remember something like that on the western side of the Millbay line round the back of Union Street. It's more then 50 years so memory is not precise. The metal plates held it together after bomb damage but the building was just usable as a store. Or it may have been that street towards Friary from Charles Church.

[Old Gringo]

Stu & John, the explanation agrees with the BCB Timeline too,

 

"1939/1945 World War Two; Industry working flat out again making guns, bombs, bikes and bullets. Railways shifting loads of stuff, canals allowed to deteriorate. Bananas rationed and Chippy bombed twice. Hoss is a hero once again, pulling fire engine!"

 

If the Chippy was bombed twice, there's every reason to assume that Millward's also copped one!

 

All the best, John.

[Coombe Barton]

If the Chippy was bombed twice, there's every reason to assume that Millward's also copped one!

Wouldn't have been a direct hit - there wouldn't be anything left - it'd be fairly close - 50-100 yards away to be still standing. [EDIT] and worth saving. They'd probably have used bricks for the windows salvaged from those buildings that had bought it.

 

As an illustration, this is all that was left of a granite chapel in Cornwall after a direct land mine hit - the gate - it's pretty bent up - the arrow indicates the remains of the gate - the gate post is still standing but that's all.

 

Edited November 20, 2012 by Coombe Barton

[Old Gringo]

Just been back to post 106 to spend a few minutes having another look at the images of that "charming place" in the pictures posted for us to enjoy.

 

Thanks Nidge. There are some great atmospheric photos of 'the way it was' included in the selection.

[Coombe Barton]

And just found another set of pix - http://www.flickr.com/photos/yamahapaul/collections/72157613345194060/

[Old Gringo]

I've picked up a couple more books with good background reading about the "Black Country" and its industries. There's only a bit about railways in them, but plenty to interest those of us who like a bit of history with their steel wheels!

 

"Black Country Folk at Werk", Ned Williams, Uralia Press, 1989, A4 Paperback 96 pages, ISBN 0 9511223 3 9

"More Black Country Folk at Werk", Ned Williams, Uralia Press, 1990, A4 Paperback 96 pages, ISBN 0 9511223 5 5

 

and I know this will upset the "purists" as this reference is an album about Birmingham (!!) - but it's full of great black & white urban photographs with good atmospheric detail for our models.

 

"Birmingham Shops", Alton & Jo Douglas, Brewin Books, 1992, A4 Paperback 128 pages, ISBN 1 85858 002 1

 

Apparently this last book is one of a series, including "Memories of the Black Country, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Dudley, Walsall and West Bromwich" - so lots more to collect.

[TheSignalEngineer]

If the line was lightly trafficed the crossing gates could be train crew operated. The Guard would go forward and close the gates to the road, reopening them after the train had passed. In this case no building would be required. Then of course there was the Vinegar Branch at Worcester which had two GWR LQ signals to control road traffic when the train was crossing the road. http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegar.htm

[Geoff Cook]

Evening all,

 

Question for those with more knowledge than me on the requirements for level crossings on an industrial line. Our scenario has it that we have a private track that passes over the mainline on an accommodation bridge (yellow arrow). This track then continues towards the rear of the board and crosses our industrial line at-grade (red arrow). So we have a little used private track crossing a private industrial line.

 

 

A few questions.

 

1. When the industrial line was built (c1880), what would have been provided in terms of gates / manning / accommodation (blue arrow) for manning.

2. In our first chosen period (1970s) what would be required - would it be an ungated / unmanned crossing?

 

We're trying to work out what (if any) gates would have been in use; whether there would have been a crossing keeper's hut; and what condition this would be in many years after building.

 

Any help / thoughts / opinions welcome.

 

Is this not the same situation as the line to Foxfield, In which case Nigel should be able to advise

[Adam]

I suspect that there were no hard and fast rules in this instance. A crossing keeper's hut would be most unlikely unless it were a public road or a very heavily trafficked internal route though the NCB certainly had staffed crossings where they were needed (notably on the Ashington and Lambton systems). Probably such a crossing would originally have been equipped with user-worked gates, generally kept closed against the roadway assuming that farm traffic was light or, in latter years, probably only closed if there were livestock in the surrounding fields. The gates might well be open or off their hinges in the field.

 

Here's an example from the Shilbottle Colliery railway in Northumberland.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5770223229/in/set-72157626705377959/lightbox/

 

Adam

[wagonbasher]

I have a problem with this un-manned approach...

 

I don't disagree that in such a case the guard would leap out and do the honours and the reset before leaping back on the train - however, that is difficult to model.

 

You cant leave the gates open for road access without the need to close them when the train comes. You cant leave them closed to the road, how would the occassional road user cross the line.

 

To have them operated - you are into the realms of Micheal Bentine's potty time. And.... our invisible gaurd can only close one gate at a time !

 

A

[Arthur]

Are we talking about an unmade, farm type track, here?

 

I'm a bit vague about the detail but there used to be such a crossing near here, I might actually be standing on it; (apologies for the quality)

 

 

It's the former Manchester Collieries system just east of Astley Green Colliery on the main line to Mosely Common and points north. I cannot recall whether there were the remains of gates but, if so, they were long out of use by the time of the photo, 1970. The trains didn't stop, as you can see. The farm land hereabouts was arable, not livestock, that might have had a bearing.

 

I'll ask Philip Harvey (PGH) to pop by, he may well be able to throw more light on it.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Arthur

[2ManySpams]

I'm not sure our model drivers operate the loco controls, nor will Stu's toilets flush. We can't do everything.

 

Out if the two options I think putting a cabin where there wouldn't have been one is worse than gates opening by themselves.

[The Stationmaster]

Thinking it through bit by bit we have -

1. A private railway - so not necessarily like the 'big' railway,

2. A private track - so basically an accommodation crossing type situation (almost all of which on the big railway had the gates normally closed to road - we are not talking about a public highway in this situation) and road usage will - at least in theory - be light with few vehicular movements.

3. The railway is on a gradient although trains are short and light.

 

My immediate conclusion - albeit working from a mixed big railway/privately owned industrial line - is that it would be a crossing with field type gates arranged to open away from the railway and road users would be responsible for opening and closing the gates. There would be whistle boards for trains approaching the crossing in either direction and some old notices on the gates reminding users to close them after use (penalty for failure to do so - 40 shillings). Now if my past bit of railway could, in the late 1970s, propel 1,500 ton trains over a crossing like that (and it was situated on a curve) I don't see why a purely industrial line need worry about anything more sophisticated although there might possibly be a telephone to the yard cabin (ie the Shunters' cabin) to check on train movements.

 

And by the 1970s the gates - if wooden - would be pretty decrepit or they might have been replaced with modern galvanised steel type field gates. Anything beyond that depends on how busy the road/track might be.

[Stubby47]

I've been having a think...

 

As drawn on the maps, the branch canal route is mirrored by a small road to the south. According to Ol' Shanks' story, small businesses started to appear along this new canal, between the canal and the road, . Would it be fair to say these would have only been built alongside the canal to enable them to use the canal ?

 

If that is the case, would the buildings have had direct canal access, without the inconvenience of the towpath being in the way ?

 

Edit : this post has been repeated in the BCB Timeline thread.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Stubby47