Black Country Blues

[wagonbasher]

mine are eye to the sky....  not mounted in cradles.  i'm sure they were shorter trains.

[The Stationmaster]

A couple of interesting "local" photos of steel coil that might be of interest:

 

The 'P&O' line by blackjacklabrador, on Flickr

 

 

Ocker Hill by blackjacklabrador, on Flickr

 

How many did you say you were doing?

That looks like cold reduced to me - both the thickness of the material and the way it is banded.   The coils Andy is making represent hot rolled coil (which could also be loaded on the roll on some wagons types but was regularly loaded eye-to-sky in the period in which BCB is set).

[Mark Forrest]

On the BBA I had started to build some time ago, I added some crossmembers from 4mm x 2mm Evergreen as I found that (after some time in storage in an incomplete state) things were looking less square than they should

 

 

[2ManySpams]

A couple of interesting "local" photos of steel coil that might be of interest:

 

The 'P&O' line by blackjacklabrador, on Flickr

 

Ocker Hill by blackjacklabrador, on Flickr

 

How many did you say you were doing?

I'm ignoring the train...the scenics look very green in the second shot don't they, and that fence is nice...

[Indomitable026]

I'm ignoring the train...the scenics look very green in the second shot don't they, and that fence is nice...

Yes I meant to say I liked the fence - a couple of inches in front of the backscene perhaps?

[Arthur]

I don't have any specific dimensions for the mandrel sizes on coils, the mandrels themselves are pretty hefty to take the strain of coiling up the strip.  Yours look fine to me Andy, nice bit of work.

 

..... Planetary Mill, so called because of the "satellite" rollers supporting the Prime Rollers of the mill which ensured a uniform thickness of the re-rolled product across its width.

 

 

That sounds more like a cluster mill, Don. Planetary mills do exist, they're quite rare and are used to reduce hot slabs to plate in a single pass. They have a large number of small work rolls (those that touch the metal) running in an orbit, or planetary motion, around a single large backing roll.

 

 

Cluster mills (the Sendzimir mill, named after its inventor, is the most common type) are widely used for the cold rolling of sheet and produce a very high quality product.  They are a very complex piece of machinery having two small diameter work rolls, with back up rolls arranged radially around them, providing support vertically and fore and aft. The small work rolls are able to exert a considerable pressure on the sheet without themselves flexing.  Small rolls impart the best finish though used alone would flex and bend under the rolling stresses.

 

 

the above Sendzimir mill would be a 1,2,3,4 mill, the work rolls (1) have a first orbit of 2 backing rolls, the 3 and then 4. 

 

 

Hot rolled coils have no direct commercial applications, the finish is relatively poor, the gauge is variable (the end of the coil leaving the mill is cooler than the leading edge was when it exited, so the strip gets slightly thicker towards the end. It also suffers from crowning, it’s marginally thicker in the centre than at the edges owing to the rolls which, despite being several tons of high quality cast steel, flex under the rolling pressure.  The edges are roughly finished which is why they can be stored eye to sky, there’s no ‘finish’ to damage.

 

So, in traffic, hot finished coil would be in transit to a cold rolling mill.

 

Cold rolling is a critical finishing process, it imparts a good surface finish, work hardens the sheet, the gauge is controlled to a much finer tolerance, crowning is minimised, as mentioned by Don, by the use of back up rolls (like in a Sendzimer mill) and a finishing edge is provided. Cold finished coil would not be placed eye to sky as the edges would get damaged.

 

It can be used as it is, or further processed; tinning, plastic coating etc.

 

 

 

 

Oi! wake up at the back, there'll be a test later!

[N15class]

Having worked in the clock trade with brass I knew about extruding and drawing but nothing about steel. Nice to learn something new each day.

[old scruffy trousers]

i have to say when i first saw the small steel works 0-4-0 diesel i thought it was a conversion of hornbys 0-4-0 class 06 shunter  but  i have been proved wrong but great work on the shunter & the guy & aec steel trucks 

 

mark

[DonB]

Arthur..

Thanks for the concise explanation of the cold rolling mills.

To produce something similar,  I would have had to dig out all my technical stuff which I dumped in the loft when I retired! (Its still there because I haven't found a home for it all and I hate throwing stuff away! Universities nowadays seem to treat Metallurgy as a side-line in  Materials Engineering courses.)

The Mill at what became Ductile Steel Company in Wednesfield was (is?) always referred to as a Planetary Mill, and I think the building housing it had that name. Although I visited the Mill several times, I was far more interested in the finished steel strip and I don't recall the disposition of the rollers within the Mill.

 

A history of Wednesfield says... "Industrial development continued throughout the 50s and 60s.  Ductile Steels of Willenhall set up a new company called Ductile Planetary Mill Ltd, to exploit the new process of “planetary rolling” and established it in Wednesfield.  The group moved its head office to Wednesfield in 1963." (http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Wednesfield/twentieth.htm )

 

Can I have week to revise before the test?

Edited April 19, 2013 by DonB

[Arthur]

 Ductile Steel Company in Wednesfield was (is?) always referred to as a Planetary Mill, 

 

A ha, armed with that name I disappeared into my library and selected a fine leather bound tome from the shelves, Iron & Steel Works of the World; 7th edition, (your own copy is no doubt to hand for your revision!!).

 

You're right Don, Ductile Steels had two planetary mills each of 50,000 tons annual capacity.  As in my first diagram, they had single back up rolls supporting the many work rolls and they were hot mills, used for rolling small hot slabs into sheet. They enabled a small works like Ductile to roll slab to sheet, unlike a conventional hot strip mill they were compact and suited to small runs.

 

This sheet was then cold rolled in two Farmer Norton 4 high mills, fairly conventional in design, here is one of them; 

 

[Stubby47]

With the cluster mill, what are the usual input/output metal thicknesses ?

Stu

[DonB]

Aaaahhh! the memories come flooding back. My major memories are of the Farmer Norton mills where I examined the final rolled and slit-to-width product, and discussed possibilities of changes in specification to suit proposed developments in our products. Also spent much less time in the vicinity of the Planitary mill. Our requirement was for thicknesses between, say, 1.5mm to 5mm. but their range was wider than that.

Arthur's encyclopedic knowledge and library may turn up the input / output capabilities of a Cluster Mill.

I don't have the volume which Arthur consulted, my interest and jobs always were in selecting and using the steel specification suitable for the work in hand. That and making a nuisance of myself at the producer's Technical Department, usually trying to latch onto a recent development or some hard-to-get specification. Hence my visits to several of the UK Steelworks and Mills.

 

We seem to be a long way off-topic!! 

[Adams442T]

When DonB and Arthur come up with data like this you have to think, in the modern idiom: Respect !!!

 

I spend my time between dusty Mediaeval tomes in Cambridge and Cycle Manufacturing History files in Nottingham Library, but probably the most esoteric volume on my shelves is, 'Permanent Fortifications: Imperial Military Establishment Training Manual for the Instruction of Officers [of all Arms] of the Austro-Hungarian Army [7th edition - Translated]

 

Lacks a certain something, but if you want anyone to build you a sand fort, I'm your man!

Edited April 19, 2013 by Adams442T

[2ManySpams]

We seem to be a long way off-topic!! 

 

Feel free to carry on!

[DonB]

See your Sand-castle book and raise you :-

 

 Stahlschlüssel " Key to Steel includes more than 60000 standard designations and trade names from approximately 300 steelmakers and suppliers." :- mostly tabulations with limited Text in German.

 

(it took me 4 years to convince my boss to subscribe to this tome!! My 1999 edition is now well out of date, with the demise of the British and American Steel Industry, but fortunately I don't need it any more)

[DonB]

I'm ignoring the train...the scenics look very green in the second shot don't they, and that fence is nice...

 

In the bottom picture (post #316) there appears to be a sports field with floodlights at centre-right. Room for a representation, say just the floodlight posts, next to Andy's cottages, behind the embankment??

[Mark Forrest]

I'm ignoring the train...the scenics look very green in the second shot don't they, and that fence is nice...

 

Yes I meant to say I liked the fence - a couple of inches in front of the backscene perhaps?

 

I've been thinking about this (the greenery and the fence).  Looking at these photos (and a few others) it occurs to me that fence acts like punctuation to break up the overall expanse of green; and also that, there is always something in the picture (no matter how green the surroundings) which hints that industry is just around the corner.

[Arthur]

With the cluster mill, what are the usual input/output metal thicknesses ?

Stu

Stu,

 

Not sure specifically about a Cluster or Sendzimir mill. A conventional, multi stand, cold mill which would take in hot rolled coil between 1.5 to 4.5 mm thickness and roll it down to between .3 to 3 mm, depending on requirements. Not huge reductions, that's hot rolling, but huge improvements in finish and tolerances.

 

Cluster mills would probably be working at the lighter end of input thickness and not reducing the sheet by that much.

 

Edit; by which I mean it could produce thin sheet but you'd need to feed in sheet not too much thicker.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Arthur

[Stubby47]

"it could produce thin sheet but you'd need to feed in sheet not too much thicker"

 

It seems to be an awfully complex machine to not gain much in the way of reduction... - what was it's main purpose ???

[Arthur]

Reduction in size is mainly achieved by hot rolling, as you can imagine, it's much easier when the metal is relatively soft. Even then it takes a lot of energy, at one time Port Talbots slabbing and hot strip mill had motors rated at a total of 49,000 hp.

 

Cold rolling is really a finishing process, you roll down to almost the size you want hot, then cold roll to get a good surface, and consistent gauge. All of that complexity in the cluster mill is to enable the work roll to be of small diameter, which gives a very concentrated pressure and the best finish, but with lots of back up rolls to prevent the work rolls bending. You're only needing a crown of a few extra thou to miss the tolerances demanded by the customer. It's an expensive way to make scrap!!

 

Much of the strip produced goes into car body plants where it's deep drawn to shape. That demands a very high quality and consistent finished sheet.

[wagonbasher]

I've been thinking about this (the greenery and the fence).  Looking at these photos (and a few others) it occurs to me that fence acts like punctuation to break up the overall expanse of green; and also that, there is always something in the picture (no matter how green the surroundings) which hints that industry is just around the corner.

very artistic comments Mark, a small tear came to my eye

 

Andy

[steve45]

I used to work at Ductile Steels at Planetary Road, Wednesfield and their Cold Rolling Mills at Short Heath Willenhall in the 1970's.

 

There is some information that I can shed which maybe relevant to the type of steel transported by rail from and to Wednesfield.

 

The Planetary Mill received billet (its raw material) sometimes but not always by rail into its billet storage yard which was situated next to the railway track and was serviced by overhead crane, however it dispatched all of its finished product which was hot rolled coil by road, definately not by rail.

 

Most of the groups cold rolling was undertaken at Ductile Cold Mill in Clarkes Lane, Willenhall.

 

Most if not all of the groups road transport was undertaken by a haulage contractor called W A Cooper who I seem to recall were based at Coven Heath. Ductile Steels were acquired by GKN around the late 70's or early 80's, I had moved on before then.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[wagonbasher]

hi

 

Viaduct is back in the news:

 

The board with the stone and brick viaduct as well as the industrial girder viaduct is heading for the members day at Taunton.  I promised to get one of the wing walls done.  There is only one set of wing walls on the board, the other pair are at the end of the board with the canal junction on it.

 

Geometrically it is a tricky structure.  I had a couple of goes making the wings 'off board' before Doncaster mainly because the boards were always elsewhere having other stuff done.

 

Initial structure is in card and  took several trial shapes offered up  to get the basic design looking right

 

 

I had made a jig the first time that captures the curve and the height / angle where the wall joins the main body of the viaduct (this is when I was trying to make it off board).  Strengthening layers of card are added and the combined bonded layers fixes the shape (well almost ). 

 

 

To ensure the brick runs true to the floor / ground I used a roll of tape as a rest for a pen to mark a horizontal line.  This is very different to 90 degrees to the upright column of stones that joins the viaduct.

 

 

As before I used an OLFA cutter to scribe the stone work that matches the rest of the viaduct.  This was 20 thou plasticard bonded on to a coating of brick embossed plasticard.  I have had to lay the plasticard brick in sections of 4 course up to 10 or so at a time. The rigid plastic will not curve the same way as the card does.  It does mean that the bricks do 'run out vertically' but I got them as close as I could.

 

 

The cappings for the wing wall are curved and most of the lines structures use the same cappings so I have cast lengths of about 280mm for use on a number of structures.  The nice bit about casting is you can invest time into the master once and reap the benefits many times.  Being resin, applied heat means it will bend (I used  the gas hob but hair dryers or any heat source will do.

 

 

I will post a shot of the item ready for painting in the morning

 

Andy

[wagonbasher]

ok finished for the night, just before a coat of plastic primer.  Note the tapered end pillars - nice touch on the original.

 

 

!! not happy with those lines that define the layers of brick will need to fill somehow without loosing the mortar courses !!!

 

Andy

[iL Dottore]

ok finished for the night, just before a coat of plastic primer.  Note the tapered end pillars - nice touch on the original.

 

wing wall for painting.jpg

 

!! not happy with those lines that define the layers of brick will need to fill somehow without loosing the mortar courses !!!

 

Andy

Nice!