which pre grouping railway has suffered the most line closures

[Richard_A]

With my job taking me pretty much all over the country, I am amazed by the amount of old infrastructure(mainly old line formations bridges etc) I see, and I just wondered has any pre grouping company had 100% of it's former lines closed?

[phil-b259]

Problem is how do you define pre grouping. Obviously the likes of the LNWR, SECR, GC, GWR, etc all have substantual sections remaining, however if you go back its suprising how little of these companies networks was actually built by them, so to speak. In many cases once the main lines were opened, it was left to smaller companies to fill in the gaps, and while lots of these companies got incoperated into larger organisations during or shortly after construction, there were quite a few that spent a suprisingly long time as independent concerns and thus meet your criteria.

 

For example on the Isle of Wight, the Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport railway (closed 1953) stayed independent and ran its own trains untill being grouped into the Southern Railway

[Adam]

Interestingly, the question you pose in the title is not the one (arguably less interesting) in the OP since, in all likelihood, the largest number of lines or largest total route mileage closed will probably go to one of the big companies (most likely the GWR - but that's a guess).

 

Those companies which have lost the greatest proportion of total route mileage are likely rather small. Plenty of lines belonging to minor companies have been wiped wholly from the map of course, most of the Isle of Wight railways for a start, but where do you draw the line? The Brecon and Merthyr, Midland and South Western Junction and Neath and Brecon, for example, have been all but totally eradicated (but not quite - there are freight only bits remaining), for example and likewise, the Somerset and Dorset and Midland and Great Northern (though both were special cases) are all but extinct.

 

Adam

[pete_mcfarlane]

Surely the strangest example is the Londonderry and Lough Swilly, which was completely closed by the 1950s but still survives as a bus company.

[Oldddudders]

As an iggerant Southerner, I'm not able to offer much in the way of informed opinion far north of London, but my immediate thoughts on seeing the OP matched Mickey's. Very few pre-Grouping companies' main lines to the heart of London have been severed in the way that the GC has.

 

South of the river, the three main companies have fared very differently. The SECR (itself only a 1901 amalgamation of two companies intent on bankrupting each other in Kent) has suffered very little real loss, with the Elham Valley line and Canterbury and Whitstable lines gone, as well as branches to Westerham, Hawkhurst, Bexhill, New Romney & Leysdown . None of these would be mourned except by people like us. The Brighton arguably did slightly worse, with Horsham-Shoreham, Horsham-Guildford, Pulborough-Midhurst-Chichester gone in the west, and much of the Three Bridges-East Grinstead-Tunbridge Wells group of lines - think Bluebell - gone in the east. But I suggest the LSWR has suffered the most, with many branches in Hampshire, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall gone or truncated - and its main line to Plymouth severed beyond Exeter.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I would imagine that the NBR is a front runner, losing it's entire route mileage south of Edinburgh apart from the ECML and North Berwick branch. I include the vast rural network in Northumberland and the Silloth branch in addition to the Fife Coast and Glenfarg routes. That's a hefty amount of mileage when you consider that The Waverley itself was a main line of 98 miles or thereabouts.

 

Dave.

[Adam]

Many of the south Wales railways a lot has gone some like the Barry Railway is there any left?

 

There's actually quite a bit of that in regular use. Leaving aside the obvious, that Barry itself still has a railway, Wikipedia (yes, I know but this is easily verifiable) demonstrates the full extent:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Railway_Company

 

Adam

[retbsignalman]

Hi!

 

I'm guessing that the Great North of Scotland Railway would be in the top five anyway, theres only the 53 and a bit miles left from Aberdeen to Keith Jn, and most of that is single, barring the double section between Insch and Kennethmont, and the 2 mile long Waterloo branch from Kittybrewster.

 

It started out with 280.25!!

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

[edcayton]

Am I right in thinking that the Derwent Valley Railway Company is still in existence although it has no railway left?

 

Ed

[Joseph_Pestell]

If we are counting "joint" railways, they seem to have suffered more than most. Portpatrick and Wigtownshire is my candidate beyond those already mentioned.

 

If we discount preservation, the SDJR has gone altogether as well.

 

For strict accuracy, the SECR is not a pre-grouping railway company. The SER and LCDR retained their separate existence as companies until 31/12/22.

[Friar Tuck]

Jersey had all railways closed.

[Edwin_m]

There's another Wikipedia page that gives the route mileage of each company immediately before Grouping.

[Richard_A]

quite a few interesting answers been posted thanks.

 

my initial thought was gc/msl but then i thought it would probably be one of the scottish companies, until old dudders suggested the lswr.

 

I wonder what the people who were involved in the building of their lines would think now

[Oldddudders]

For strict accuracy, the SECR is not a pre-grouping railway company. The SER and LCDR retained their separate existence as companies until 31/12/22.

So all the mileage I quoted is actually SER. The LCDR lost Greenwich Park and Crystal Palace HL, which are pretty trivial. The SER lines below Elmers End to Addiscombe and Sanderstead have also left the national network, but are in places Croydon Tramway, as is LBSCR's Wimbledon - West Croydon, both routes enjoying a much better service than heavy rail ever provided.

[micknich2003]

Two short sections of the Hull & Barnsley remain, about 4 mile in Hull and a portion of the former Main Line from Hensall Junction to Drax power station. I will stand corrected, but I seem to think the Hensall to Drax portion was lifted and then relaid some years later. If so, does it count for the purpose of the present discusion? Mick Nicholson.

[The Black Hat]

Would have thought like the NBR the NER is a victim of many routes gone.

 

Only a hand full remain when you consider the vast system that was built up, especially to serve freight too. I can think of....

 

Bishop Auckland to Spennymoor, Ferryhill

Bishop Auckland to Durham

Bishop Auckland to Barnard Castle

Darlington, Barnard Castle, Stainmore, Kirkby Stephen, Tebay

Eastgate to Wearhead

Wear Valley Junction to Crook and onto South Tyne System

Entire South Tyne system removed - all from Waskerley, Consett, down to Pelaw, or across to Sunderland

Sunderland dock system gone

Colliery lines across Durham coalfield, too many to mention

Simpasture branch for freight only from Shildon to Redmarshall.

Freight line from Carlton to Sunderland

Boulby to Whitby, Scarbrough.

Nunthorpe to Guisbro and Whitby

Battersby to Picton

Northallerton to Ripon and Harrogate

Redmire to Garsdale

Pickering to Malton

Alston to Haltwhistle

Northumberland boarder lines like Hexham to Barrsaford, Kielder, etc

Alnwich branch

 

a few of these end with preserved lines and Im sure theres much more that I have missed. Sad when you consider a lot of the routes would be brilliant for communting, diversionary freight and passenger and park and ride stuff today.

[Guest Max Stafford]

The rural Northumberland lines including the Border Counties from the junction with the N&C were mostly NB David. The exceptions being Tweedmouth-Coldstream, Alnwick-Wooler-Coldstream.

 

Dave.

[Michael Delamar]

is there a common theme that the later built lines usually close first?

 

ie the first built route is usually the best.

 

its just something Ive noticed

[kevinlms]

I suspect you're right, generally speaking.

 

For instance lines like the Liverpool & Manchester or London & Birmingham (and London & almost anything) are never going to close, because they linked together existing cities, that already had and continues to have a worthwhile traffic. But many local or branch lines were built for a specific traffic (including bypasses), that has probably gone, closed or worked out.

 

Kevin Martin

 

ps in view of experience, when is someone going to start a new thread - Which pre-group railway has the most lines still open? Or which pre-group railway...

 

[cheesysmith]

A lot of lines were closed by political reasons. You cannot say that the hope valley route is a better railway between sheffield and manchester than the woodhead was. The reason the passinger service remained over the hope valley was due to the gov at the time trying to win votes. Also, the line between sheffield and nottingham down the midland route is a sequence of juntions off routes designed to serve coal/industries no longer there.

[Oldddudders]

A lot of lines were closed by political reasons. You cannot say that the hope valley route is a better railway between sheffield and manchester than the woodhead was. The reason the passinger service remained over the hope valley was due to the gov at the time trying to win votes. Also, the line between sheffield and nottingham down the midland route is a sequence of juntions off routes designed to serve coal/industries no longer there.

In the mid-60s I recall watching a tv programme about the merits of each route between Manchester and Sheffield, and what needed to be done to rationalise this corridor, which was seen to be over-provided. While politics played a part in closures, in this case at least some of the facts were aired in a public forum.

 

Perhaps some diligent RMwebber will discover the programme on YouTube?

[Michael Delamar]

was it this?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea52T1klf-Q

[Oldddudders]

was it this?

Not quite - although I was sure if anyone could sniff it out, it would be you, Michael! This is a charming and affectionate film, about railwaymen as much as anything else. The one I think I recall was more business-oriented, with facts and figures related to the various lines crossing the Pennines, and identifying options for closure. I suspect it was a kind of spin-off from the Beeching Report.

 

Thanks for the find, though!

[Happy Hippo]

I thought hard about this and the only railway that springs to mind in my area of 'expertse' was the Manchester and Milford Railway.

 

And that was very much tongue in cheek.

 

the only other one i could think of was the Penydarren Tramway.

 

regards

 

Richard

[RANGERS]

If joint lines fall into it, there's a few where virtually nothing survives, S&D most notably (all gone) but also the M&GN (only three miles survive), LNWR & GN (all gone),SMJ (all gone) and no doubt others with which I'm not familiar.