What are the best RTR Clerestory coaches?

[OnTheBranchline]

If you had to recommend some RTR Clerestory coaches, which ones would you recommend?

[brossard]

The only ones that come to mind are some Hornby examples from quite a few years ago. I understand these were of a generic design and were issued in Midland and GWR livery (I had both types at one time - lord only knows where they are now).

 

Like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R122-GW-GWR-CLERESTORY-1st-3rd-COMPOSITE-COACH-NEW-BOXED-ms-/220949515098?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item33719e0b5a

 

If you want accuracy I think you'll need to go the kit route.

 

John

[jcm@gwr]

AFAIA, there have only been 2 RTR clerestory types.

1 the Tri-ang short coaches, which had very good panel mouldings.

2 Hornby long coaches, which [on some versions] has very good printing.

Both of these ranges are a bit generic, ie not quite an exact model of any

particular prototype.

I have both types, and with a bit of painting and detailing are passable.

You will have to build your own if you are after accuracy.

There is a site which will be worth checking

gwr.org.co..uk

Cheers, Jeff

[Adrian Wintle]

AFAIA, there have only been 2 RTR clerestory types.

1 the Tri-ang short coaches, which had very good panel mouldings.

2 Hornby long coaches, which [on some versions] has very good printing.

Both of these ranges are a bit generic, ie not quite an exact model of any

particular prototype.

 

The Triang short clerestories do not represent any particular prototype, but the panel mouldings are quite representative of GWR practice. The bogies need replacing with something more appropriate - Dean 6'4" or 8'6" bogies. Here is one with 247 Developments Dean 8'6" bogies (unpainted at the time the photo was taken):

 

The Hornby long gangwayed coaches are a different beast. Except for the lack of panel moulding (which is very well represented with paint on the ones that have been released with the recent Dean Single packs or with the London 1908 pack), the third is a good match for a C15 third (ex 2nd/3rd compo), while the brake third is very close to a D29 brake third (the guards' lookouts should be offset, not opposite one another). The bogies are reasonable representations of the Dean 10' which is appropriate for these coaches.

 

Those are your choices for RTR. Going beyond that, you have the Slaters' kits (now distributed by Coopercraft) or the brass sides from 247 Developments (ex-Bettabitz, and intended for the Hornby long clerestories). The next step up would be full brass kits.

 

Adrian

Edit for spelling

[brossard]

It's a pity that there there are so few RTR coach offerings that are up to the standard of locos being produced. We've got the MR Compound, Citys and soon we'll have the Dukedog but no sign of any reasonable coaches. Coach kit assembly difficulty varies widely from the plastic ones from Ratio to full brass kits. However, it's the decoration where it all falls down. Lining seems to bedevil most of us. I have discovered some fine pens that use oil instead of ink at the art store - I will be trying these.

 

John

[Adrian Wintle]

If you can get your hands on the coaches from the recent Flying Dutchman, GWR 150, and/or London 1908 train packs, the decoration is so good that you can probably live with the lack of relief on the sides (I know I can). They actually cover a couple of livery variations, and will work with the Singles and Cities.

 

Adrian

[brossard]

I daresay you are right Adrian, while I don't know the details of the packs you mention. Hornby's newest coaches are absolutely superb, not just in the decoration but in underframe detail (which is a bugbear of mine). We really need stuff like that, but aren't likely to see them for some years. We've been waiting for the Bachmann portholes for more than 2 years.

 

John

[OnTheBranchline]

When was the general time period that the Clerestory coaches were used?

[pete_mcfarlane]

When was the general time period that the Clerestory coaches were used?

Up to the early 1950s - here's a D29 brake third at Snow Hill in 1947:

http://www.warwicksh.../gwrbsh1368.htm

(Fantastic site BTW - there are quite a few other GWR coach photos on it).

[OnTheBranchline]

Up to the early 1950s - here's a D29 brake third at Snow Hill in 1947:

http://www.warwicksh.../gwrbsh1368.html

(Fantastic site BTW - there are quite a few other GWR coach photos on it).

 

The link is dead.

[Coach bogie]

. However, it's the decoration where it all falls down. Lining seems to bedevil most of us. I have discovered some fine pens that use oil instead of ink at the art store - I will be trying these.

 

John

 

I use the fine permenent markers sold to write on CD's. Varnish with acrylic/Ronseal and it works a treat.

 

One rtr coach that can save on the lining process, though only a brake available, is to purchase the Hornby 'Thomas' brake that is already lined and removed the face.

 

http://www.Hornby.com/shop/rolling-stock/thomas-and-friends-rolling-stock/r9201-old-slow-coach/

 

Otherwise it is kitbuilding as said above.

 

One shortcut is to use the 247/Bettabitz sides on the Hornby bodies. I have a few running alongside Mallard clerestories and it is difficult to tell which is kit built.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

When was the general time period that the Clerestory coaches were used?

 

The Hornby long clerestories represent coaches that were built in the late 1890s, a few of which survived to BR days.

 

The Triang clerestories style also matches that of coaches built in the 1890s. C10 thirds (same length as the non-brake coach but with an extra compartment) are frequently seen in photos of trains in the late 1930s. Some would have made it to BR days.

 

One rtr coach that can save on the lining process, though only a brake available, is to purchase the Hornby 'Thomas' brake that is already lined and removed the face.

http://www.Hornby.co...old-slow-coach/

 

Unfortunately, the Hornby Thomas products are not readily available in Canada due to licensing issues.

 

The other option is using the Triang clerestories to make closer representations of actual diagrams:

 

Lengthening the brake section of the brake can make something that resembles a D37 (I think that is the correct diagram), while grafting two of the passenger sections from the brake together make a (slightly long) C23 third - it needs the Dean 10' bogies from the long clerestories (or 247 do some). Also, the non-brake coach, while a bit short, is an otherwise reasonable representation of an A4 first.

 

C23 in progress:

 

247/Bettabitz C14 in progress:

 

I'm mostly building for the 1930s, so the painting is quite easy - the lining of the panels was long gone by then.

 

Adrian

[richbrummitt]

The link is dead.

 

try this

[pete_mcfarlane]

The link is dead.

Not sure what went wrong there, but it's now corrected.

[Adrian Wintle]

try this

 

And for those who complain about the lack of panelling on the Hornby coaches, look at how much of it hs been replaced with smooth surfaces (ply or metal) on that coach... all the clerestory, almost everything below the waist, and almost half of the upper body. It looks to be in overall brown, too.

 

Adrian

[martinT]

Up to the early 1950s - here's a D29 brake third at Snow Hill in 1947:

http://www.warwicksh.../gwrbsh1368.htm

Excellent photo. For a guard's ducket still to be in place in 1947 is unusual. Most had been removed by then I think.

 

Martin

[Il Grifone]

I've done both the D37 and C23 conversions. Strictly they are slightly narrow and should have the dummy corridor ends, but I can live with that*. The panelling ceased to be lined out in 1928 so I'm sure some lasted into the thirties. Repainting older coaches was not the highest priority. It's also possible to make 8 compartment thirds and four wheel vans from the brake/thirds. The 2nd/3rd compos were rebuilt to make another compartment from the centre lavatory when 2nd class was abolished. (Retooling of these coaches is long overdue! - GWR modellers are very poorly served for R-T-R coaches)

 

I read somewhere that the practice of removing duckets stopped around 1930, following a question in parliament?!

 

* They have K's bogies bought new, so are a bit long in the tooth now and awaiting a visit to the works. There used to be a plastic K's kit for a K14/15/16 luggage van which assembled fairly easily. These still turn up on eBay from time to time. The other K's coach kits are harder to find (4 wheel single arc roofed third - not the same as the Ratio kit - 6 wheel tri-compo clerestory and ex railmotor autocoach in white metal and a flat ended B-set in plastic)

[terry_nyorks]

Lots of prototype Clerestory pics on Flickr ( http://www.flickr.co...ups/2031425@N22 ), including some from other countries (e.g. US, Chile, New Zealand, South Afric, Zimbabwe). Also photo of the Midland Railway 1874 imported Pullman, that started the Pullman revolution this side of the pond.

 

Please add any clerestory pics you may have.

[OnTheBranchline]

Is there much of a difference in design between the coaches built in the 00s/10s/20s?

[Il Grifone]

Quite a lot, but very briefly:

 

At the beginning of the period, clerestories were still being built. The Churchward era saw initially 'Dreadnoughts' and later 'Concertinas; (The lack of doors to every compartment on the former met with consumer resistance.) These were followed by 'Toplights', which lasted until the early 20s, the later examples being steel panelled. Lengths were generally 57 or 70 feet.

The mid/late 20s saw the steel panelled Collett coaches of various designs (the time-expired Hornby 57 footers come from this era).

 

The livery also varied choc/cream to 1908, all brown 1908 to 1912, crimson 1912-1922 and then choc/cream again

[OnTheBranchline]

After they were replaced by the early Collett coaches, would they have done branchline work?

[Miss Prism]

After displacement by the Toplights, and then the early Colletts, most clerestories were used on secondary passenger and urban work, usually displacing elderly 4- and 6-wheel stock. Withdrawals started in earnest in the late '20s. Clerestories, particularly corridors, tended not to be used for branchlines because branchlines had dedicated stock (4-wheelers, autocoaches, railmotors, B-sets) which was normally non-corridor.

[coachmann]

The introduction of various RTR pre-group locos has naturally created a yearning for matching coaches, yet even those folk modelling the BR steam-era don't want the bother of building coaches even with their simple liveries. Few people are capable of executing pre-group and early Big Four liveries, which is why there has only ever been a small handful of professional painters capable of of this sort of work. So I'm afraid you will have to wait until the plastic RTR people tool up and produce your wants.

 

Below is a MR clerestory coach built using Bill Bedford sides and scratch components. It was a mock up to test the viability of doing a production run. I decided not to go ahead. It would have been at least £350.00 per coach in 4mm/00 at the time. No doubt people would like such coaches from Hornby or Bachmann to run with their MR Compound, but would baulk at a price that was above £50.00!

 

[Coach bogie]

After they were replaced by the early Collett coaches, would they have done branchline work?

Not so sure about the term 'replaced'. Clerestories were built over a long time period so only the earlier or life expired vehicles would have been replaced. Swindon had begun fitting electric lighting to vehicles prior to the 1925 Colletts, and the clerestories so fitted would have had much longer lives than the gas vehicles. In addition, the 1923 grouping saw the absorption of several other railway companies, many of whose stock was life expired and the GWR needed a supply vehicles for the absorbed companies not just replace existing stock.

 

By the 1930's many clerestories were relagated to secondary duties and spare, though the later build corridor vehicles ( and some non corridors such as C10) were still being overhauled and modernised and being used as general service stock. It was common to see clerestory strengtheners throughout 1930's and 40's. I even have old Stirling video footage of one in crimson and cream in the 1950's. It was necessary to keep older vehicles, not just clerestories, as, during winter months, stock went through schedule maintenance to be made ready for the intensive summer services, and clerestory stock was often taken from the 'spare' pool and used to fill in until a vehicle returned from Swindon. Summer Saturdays saw spare clerestories used as strengtheners, or marshalled with spare vehicles from all eras into extra trains. Clearly WWII saw many clerestories being used well  beyond projected life.

 

Not all clerestories were kept. Considering that many vehicles were well over 30 years old by the time the 1930's andsome were just withdrawn as life expired, or converted to other use. For instance, some clerestory underframes were reused as motor car body wagons (BOCAR A). Special vehicles such as diners, saloons ans the ex Royal Train brakes, lasted longer than most.

 

As Miss Prism states, most branch lines had dedicated stock. B sets even had the allocation and number on the end eg. TRURO No. 2. Ex concertina slip coaches were favoured for some branch lines such as Farringdon and Newcastle Emlyn. I model Westbury and have several clerestories on the Salisbury-Bristol trains, which was a common duty for ex mainline stock. Photos show similar workings on Tauton - Barnstable. Through coaches on branchlines were usually part of a modern train detached on route and would not be clerestory unless acting as a spare if the allocated vehicle was not available.

 

hope this helps

 

Mike Wiltshire

[buffalo]

...It was common to see clerestory strengtheners throughout 1930's and 40's. I even have old Stirling video footage of one in crimson and cream in the 1950's...

This was indeed one way that old clerestorys might find their way into branchline duties. There is, for example, a 1936 photo in Colin Maggs' Rail Centres: Bristol showing 5512 at Pylle Hill, just south of Bristol TM, with a B set (E140 I think, though possibly E145) and a strengthening clerestory that might well be a C10 or similar. The train is heading for the Portishead branch. The clerestory is, of course, a non-corridor type as would suit such services. Perhaps such a strengthener was added for early morning and late afternoon services?

 

Nick