rodshaw Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Belatedly, I decided to ballast the track on my switching layout. I had wanted to avoid it, so I laid the track onto ballast mat, but when everything was finished it just didn't look right, especially in the photos I took. So I ballasted it in the "time-honoured way" - almost the last job on the layout, rather than one of the first. I laid the ballast neatly enough, but no matter how careful I tried to be, I found that it all got disturbed as soon as I dropped the ballast/PVA/washing-up liquid mix onto it with an eye dropper. Some of it sank down, some of it rose up in little blobs, some of it went on the sleepers. Then of course, if I tried to smooth it over again, it just made things worse. I'm waiting for it to dry now, and I think it may end up looking reasonable with a bit of "post-processing". But do other people have problems with this tedious job? Does anyone actually like doing it? Am I in the wrong hobby? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I dont mind ballasting at all, tedious yes but the end result is well worth it. I put all my ballast in place, soak it with a water sprayer and then drop my PVA/water/washing up liquid on as required, leave well alone for 24 hours and its done! Im actually looking forward to starting the ballasting on my new layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I quite like it, it's the point at which 'trainset' starts to look like 'model railway', even with Peco 100 ! However, it depends what you're ballasting with, as the material has altered over the years. When I were a lad you could have any ballast you liked as long as it was Javis granite chips. Being real granite it stayed put when you set about it with the eye dropper, but the modern Woodland Scenics type stuff is some sort of ground nut husk which floats off at the slightest chance. Give it a spray with water/washing up liquid first (you need a very fine mist from a perfume bottle or similar, Boots do cheap plastic ones, or a good plant sprayer and don't go mad) to make it stick together before you start with the eye dropper. Failing that, deposit the drops of PVA/water/WUL just along the edge of the ballast and let it soak in a bit first. It's like mixing mortar on a board without making a mess of the drive. The first splash of water onto the dry sand/cement mix runs straight off and goes all over your boots. Once you've stirred it up a bit the next one should soak straight in. Edited June 18, 2012 by stuartp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 For me, it's tedious and one of the less enjoyable tasks. However, I regard is as one of the first tasks to be done as part of track laying and before starting on any of the scenic stuff. Avoid dropping the glue mixture onto the ballast, instead feed it from ground level along the edge of the ballast. Let it soak in, then apply some more until it reaches the middle of the four foot. Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 When I were a lad you could have any ballast you liked as long as it was Javis granite chips. Being real granite it stayed put when you set about it with the eye dropper, but the modern Woodland Scenics type stuff is some sort of ground nut husk which floats off at the slightest chance. I ballasted my first layout some years ago with Javis grey ballast. It ended up with a distinct green tinge. I don't know whether this is common or was because of the green washing-up liquid I used! This time I used Woodland Scenics, maybe its lightness was part of my problem, but I do see the value in going carefully along the edges first. Oh, well, I'll know next time. Won't be for a while though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 For me, it's tedious and one of the less enjoyable tasks. However, I regard is as one of the first tasks to be done as part of track laying and before starting on any of the scenic stuff. Avoid dropping the glue mixture onto the ballast, instead feed it from ground level along the edge of the ballast. Let it soak in, then apply some more until it reaches the middle of the four foot. Nick I disagree. Ballasting should be done after any lineside scenics are added such as ducting, walls, signals or fences as otherwise you end up building your scenics onto a layer of ballast rather than making it look like those items were there prior to the ballast being put in place by the PW chaps. Nothing looks worse than a wall or ducting stuck on top of ballast with a nasty gap underneath. simply build the wall and then lay ballast upto it and viola a bedded in none floating wall with proper foundations. Cav 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 It's not just you, it did used to go green. It looked great in the bags but once the dust washed off - green. We all kept using it because everybody else's track looked the same so it therefore looked 'right' if you see what I mean. A bit like scatter until Barry Norman came along and gently pointed out to the masses that grass didn't actually look like dyed sawdust... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2012 The advice to get it well soaked before applying the glue seems to be very effective but it then takes a long time to dry out - look closely at the ends of the 2x1 trackbed in this pic!! Using this method - with Woodlands Scenic ballast - resulted in very little moving when the dilute pva was applied with a small syringe, but it took 2-3 days to dry out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I disagree. Ballasting should be done after any lineside scenics are added such as ducting, walls, signals or fences as otherwise you end up building your scenics onto a layer of ballast... Good point, Cav, but for the era and location I model they didn't have any ducting or big machines throwing vast quantities of ballast in all directions. My ballast doesn't extend anywhere near walls or fences (other than platform edges which are installed before ballasting). The edge of the ballast is separated from everything else by a smooth, well-maintained, cess. I can assure you that I don't stick anything on top of ballast; if anything needs to go there, the ballast is dug out first. In fact there's very little that might go on top of the ballast other than point rodding and signal wires and I don't think anyone would recommend fitting those before ballasting. Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I hate ballasting because the glue has ruined the electrics on both of my most recent N gauge layouts. No matter how careful I am, the glue seeps into the fishplates and turns every one into an isolating rail joiner. I am currently having to go back and add wired feeds to every single piece of track on my layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I find ballasting tedious although the finished result makes it all worth while. I am not a fan of uncontrolled experiments with water and PVA. I mixed my ballast and glue to a stiff porridge consistency and placed it all carefully in postion with a small screw driver and a pallet knife. I used wall paper paste and blue poppey seeds. I have used the same approach successfully, wall paper paste and Hornby Scenics gravel products for landscaped areas. I cannot see why the same approach could not be used with PVA - except that I don't want everything cast in stone. I started ballasting my layout round about July last year and completed it for Christmas. I must have a couple of hundred metres of running lines - so quite a task. It is detailed here on my Blog http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/880-sixties-snapshots-00-scale/ Good luck Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozthedog Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I find ballasting mind numbingly boring but for some reason extremely relaxing. The problem of adding a water/PVA mix directly onto Woodland Scenics ballast is a consequence of the surface tension of the water pushing the light particles of ballast around. I overcome this by pre-wetting the ballast with isopropyl alchol diluted 50% with water. Just put drops onto the sleepers and it runs into the ballast without disturbing the ballast. Then follow with 25%PVA containing a drop of washing up liquid and the next day everything is dry and set solid. Isopropyl alcohol was bought on eBay for about £5/litre. Its good for cleaning rails as well. Cheers Keith Edited June 18, 2012 by ozthedog 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 While we're on the subject of using PVA or alternatives for ballasting, I should mention that I've been using Klear on the current layout with great success. No surface tension problems so no need to add IPA, washing up liquid or other wetting additives. Although I have a good supply of the old clear version of Klear (see other threads) IIRC, at least one person has reported that the new cloudy version works just as well. Nick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I enjoy ballasting, but there again I dont do it the 'time honoured way', as I find it too messy, and long winded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TomE Posted June 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2012 Another vote for Kleer here. You don't get any of the problems associated with using PVA, or have to worry about getting the mix right, or using the right sort of spray etc. Just drip it on straight from the bottle with the end of an old paint brush or similar and let capillary action do most of the work for you! Like Nick I haven't used the new formula yet, but I have seen others suggest that for ballasting it is just as good as the old stuff. Tom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moria Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Last layout, long Meg was done with the Kleer method. Seemed fine until about 3 years and then it started cracking and coming away. Certainly it was fine to start with and it may just have not been enough Kleer, but this layout will deffinately be welded rock solid with PVA. And in response to the OP, I actually quite like the ballasting, it's somewhant relaxing, but shouldn't be started until you have proved the running in every way as when it's down, it's down if it's done right:) I am also a supporter of getting in all the basic stuff first.. track, conduits, cables, platform edges, retaining walls, dummy point motors etc, anything the ballast will touch. Regards Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted June 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2012 I used diluted Copydex on mine, and connected a dropper to each rail before installing the track, so didn't suffer with glue in the rail joiners. The Copydex was mixed with water and washing up liquid (don't ask me for the percentages, I made it up as I went along. I discovered that just putting the glue with a plastic syringe on the dry ballast gave the same results as the OP, then I sprayed the dry ballast with a plant mister before applying the glue, and applying the glue gently from the edge of the ballast (as Buffalo described yesterday) produced much better results. I also discovered that the Copydex lets go of the baseboard quite easily if you have to lift the track after you've ballasted it. Guess who put his track down in the wrong place? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted June 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) I hate ballasting because the glue has ruined the electrics on both of my most recent N gauge layouts. No matter how careful I am, the glue seeps into the fishplates and turns every one into an isolating rail joiner. I am currently having to go back and add wired feeds to every single piece of track on my layout. I solder every joint by running a bit of flux and solder into each fishplate. The baseboard joints ans isolation joints at turnouts take care of any expansion issues. Once all track is tested electrically and running of various items of stock, then the whole lot isballasted and stuck with diluted PVA. Turnout motors are added afterwards once the turnout tei bars are freed up. I tend to do a bit of ballasting eacc morning before going to work - soon gets done. Ian Edited June 19, 2012 by roundhouse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 A few years back Capt Kernow showed me an alternative method that solved all those problems and now I wouldn't ballast any other way. Clean and simple with no mess. See post 45 in my Eastwood Town thread.....Link from my signature. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 A few years back Capt Kernow showed me an alternative method that solved all those problems and now I wouldn't ballast any other way. Clean and simple with no mess. See post 45 in my Eastwood Town thread.....Link from my signature. Nice method. But are you sure that's red primer on the tracks, not red wine? Anyway I seem to have got away with it. It's all dry this morning, the points are moving and all electrical connections intact. A quick tidy up and vacuum, and all should be well. That's got that over with till next time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 A few years back Capt Kernow showed me an alternative method that solved all those problems and now I wouldn't ballast any other way. Clean and simple with no mess. See post 45 in my Eastwood Town thread.....Link from my signature. 100% endorsement for this method passed on to me by Gordon. The results are visible in my layout thread Camden Shed in my signature too. It was so much easier, neater, less messy, less prone to disturbance than the traditional method that I tried before, that even a beginner like me could get good results quite rapidly. For me, it has the added advantage of not introducing any water to, or near, the baseboards. Just to test out the effectiveness of my sealant...... It really works for me. Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I solder every joint by running a bit of flux and solder into each fishplate. The baseboard joints ans isolation joints at turnouts take care of any expansion issues. Once all track is tested electrically and running of various items of stock, then the whole lot isballasted and stuck with diluted PVA. Turnout motors are added afterwards once the turnout tei bars are freed up. I will be using this method in future. Going back and restoring electrical connectivity after the event is a lot harder than doing it right in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I actually really enjoy ballasting and find it very relaxing. It also very quickly makes the model look like a real railway and less like a toy train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) I agree with Jenny. It's all part of the modelling experience, init? Caveats: I'm not one to rush through laying track just to get "trains running". Can't see the point. Get it right. Decent, well laid track, is the foundation for everything. It looks beautiful if done well. Take your time, get it right. All my favourite layouts (by other people) have beautiful, flowing trackwork that is ballasted well as a labor of love. Best, Pete. Edited June 20, 2012 by trisonic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted June 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2012 All my favourite layouts (by other people) have beautiful, flowing trackwork that is ballasted well as a labor of love. Best, Pete. You won't like my ballasting then. I didn't love the labour enough, but I'm happy with it as a first attempt 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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