Hayfields turnout workbench

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Keith

When hunting through a forum, it is often easier when you know suitable terminology. I will have a look at those articles when I get home. Thank you.

 

Thanks John

I understand the order of assembly- it was (as another chap has put on a different forum "a case of needing 3 hands"). I am going to try it again using flat scrap brass etch (I forgot I have half of Extreme Etches stock in my cupboard- I knew the waste etch would be useful one day) instead of on round brass wire.

 

If you did have time to take photos of the crossing construction, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks to both of you for your continued help, it is greatly appreciated.

[hayfield]

I pinched the idea from a system devised by DC Wheelrights for P4, mine can be used for any gauge

 

 

I piece of PCB board with a length of rail soldered to it

 

 

You will also need a straight edge, I prefer a piece of ali bar but a 6" ruler will do

 

 

Fit 2 pieces of shim or copperclad strip to the Vee and form a wing/crossing rail

 

 

As you can see the straight edge holds the Vee and wing/crossing rail in line, now solder the wing/crossing rail to the Vee using a wing rail gauge. NOW check the rail is straight. The 2 longer pieces of copperclad strip just hold the rails at the same height. The flat piece of metal is a wing rail gauge

 

 

Unit soldered together

 

 

Add the third piece of copperclad then solder the next wing/crossing rail using a wing rail gauge

 

 

Unit now soldered together. Its on my Mk1 Vee jig, Mk 2 is much the same just slightly better made

 

 

Rear vies showing the bars cut and filed flush to the rails, which are cut to length as I am about to fit them

 

AS you can see a cheap home made unit that is simple to use and effective. Hope this helps

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Just starting another turnout so just in case some may have skipped my previous ramblings here goes, I stick the plan on to a building board, this means I can build the turnout or crossing  on my work bench. Also I can turn the board through 360 degrees. I have larger boards for building complexes. Just for the record this is a B8 in 00 gauge (not 00-sf)

 

 

I start with attaching tracing paper over the plan, held down with masking tape. Then I use a ruler as a straight edge to keep sleepers in line, and cut and lay thin strips of double sided tape

 

 

My simple sleeper cutting jig to the left, with a movable stop so sleepers can be cut the same length where required. Its also much quicker than marking and cutting every sleeper 

 

 

Here you can see the relationship of the double sided tape and sleepers, thin strips is all that is required

 

 

The common crossing is set in place initially with standard (S1 chairs in this case) and bridge chairs, rather than chopping up standard chairs. The bridge chair is quite different in size from a standard chair and is noticeable by its absence

 

 

I have just added the rest of the block and crossing nose chairs, you can see the Exactoscale common crossing sprue's below. Each sprue comes with 1-5,6,7,8 & 10 crossings. Far better than cutting up standard chairs As the A (crossing nose chair) differs from the rest, also on the Y & D chairs is the central block part of the block chair.

 

EDIT link to the Exactoscale common crossing chairs  http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/Common%20Crossings.pdf This shows the sequence of the chairs much clearer

 

Whilst building this turnout I will be using several different types of special chairs, its a pity Peter at C&L does not do a pack of them for a pair of turnouts rather than have to buy them all separately. I may send an email with my thoughts on this subject to him.

 

The next job is to fabricate the stock rails, but that's tomorrows job. I find the 2 parts of the build that take the most time are making the common crossing and cutting the timbers, the quicker and easy parts are next

 

Well its getting on and I got up at 4;45 to go to work this morning, bed waits

Edited August 16, 2015 by hayfield

[hayfield]

 

The first thing to do with the stock rails is to put a notch in the rail to represent a rail join then solder etched fishplates each side. You could use 2 rails and use either a plastic or metal fishplate, or just not bother at all. Sorry the photo is not too clear, will try to do a better quality one later

 

 

This is the common crossing end of the rail, with 2 of the check chairs fitted (check chair sprue above) and standard S1 chairs above. As the check chairs have a 0.8 mm gap in this state not appropriate for either EM or 00 gauges. I will show you a work around

 

 

The toe end showing the first of the special switch chairs (and sprue below) and bridge chair (sprue above) which is to the left of the fishplate

 

Link to the Exactoscale instructions  http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/RH%20Switches.pdf  There are enough for a right and left had turnout, either A,B or C switches

 

Edit  I have added a link to the Exactoscale common crossing instructions to the previous post

 

 

S1 3 bolt and bridge chairs for comparison in size

 

 

I now fit the common crossing (heal) part of the straight stock rail using gauges, you can see I have cut off the unused part of the check chairs, not forgetting to put the chair halves in a safe place for later use

 

Not in the photo but I also have stick the end chair at the other end (toe) using the plan as a guide

Edited August 16, 2015 by hayfield

[hayfield]

 

Next job is to use a straight edge to keep the stock rail straight whilst the solvent sets

 

 

If you file a flat on the inside check rail rim on the gauge it will alow the gauge to sit flat at places where the check/wing rail is wider that the gauge. Anyway on C&L gauges are not much use for setting check or wing rails owing to the 1 mm gap

 

 

Roller gauges holding the first part of the stock rail in place. You can see both check rails, both have 3 check chairs on the upper being adapted by cutting off the half chairs. I have stuck 2 of the 3 half check chairs in place to the stock rail

 

 

 

Check rail put into place using a gauge

 

 

I have stuck a few more chairs to the timbers up to the red line, as I will stick more chairs to the timbers when the straight switch rail is fitted as I fit the curved stock rail into the straight switch rail

 

 

The toe end showing the end two chairs being stuck in place using gauges, notice the set (bend) in the stock rail, the bend must be mad prior to fitting the rail

Edited August 16, 2015 by hayfield

[hayfield]

 

I attach 8 of the 12 switch rail chairs using superglue to the keys to stick the chairs to the rails. I then use solvent to stick the chairs on the stock rail only to the timbers

 

 

I do a dodge on the additional special chairs in the 2PL position, these chairs are designed for the Exactoscale kits and this is the position where the switch rail is attached to the stock rail, so only the outer 2 pieces are provided. As 2PL is similar to 1PL I have used a standard S1 chair on the stock rail and cut it back, then used the slide bit of a slide chair

 

 

I file to a blunt point the back of the slide rail where it touches the stock rail, I then finish it off with fine emery cloth/paper

 

 

Next I need to file the inside part of the head of the rail, but leave the foot intact. A simple jig where I can clamp the rail with side support, I then file the side of the head into a point allowing the blunt side of the file to run in/along the web leaving the foot intact

 

 

The finished part after a quick rub with fine emery paper

 

 

The stock rail is attached to the common crossing with an Exactoscale plastic fishplate and the chairs stuck to the timbers. You will see I have moved a couple of chairs on the stock rail where they meet the switch rail chairs to stop solvent creep

 

Next instalment later as I am visiting my neighbour who is in hospital, then off to a BBQ

Edited August 16, 2015 by hayfield

[Siberian Snooper]

Pendant mode on, the length of rail joining the switch rail to the common crossing is called the "closure", pendant mode off.

[hayfield]

Thanks, I was never good on the finer details or names, I must get one of those charts with the names on and pin it above my computer, some may now know what I have been rambling on about

[hayfield]

The previous ramblings have been done rather quickly, due to lunch/visiting/then BBQ. It has though helped me to focus on what I am doing and spending less time surfing on the computer

 

 

Earlier I said I had not fixed quite a few chairs, the first job is to set the stock rail at the place on the plan called the stock gauge, I am using a block gauge which was very kindly milled up specially for me in 00 gauge (I do have one in P4) however you can achieve the same by filing a flat on the end of a roller gauge as shown in the photo

 

 

The other chairs that have not been stuck are those which abut the last few chairs on the switch rail, these can now be stuck down so the last 3 sets of chairs fit next to each other

 

 

After making the second switch rail it can be fitted in place using gauges

[hayfield]

After the last post I fitted the missing block chairs and got the building board cleaned up for a different size plan

 

 

Just the tiebars to fit and after these are soldered to the point blades I will then fit the remaining 4 slide chairs which are not fitted with the rest as hot rails tend to melt slots into them, if you are quick the other slide chairs are unaffected

 

Soldering iron out next for the tiebars and another common crossing

 

One thing I must stress, whilst I rushed posting the thread I took my time with building the turnout and the parts. The one most common fault I see with novice builders is they try and build the turnout as quickly as possible, by rushing they make mistakes and or accept badly made parts. I fell into this fault whilst learning as I was impatient to get things running.

 

Either do this with some copperclad turnouts (these now are not as cheap to make as before) just to get the hang of things or get something running, they can be re-used (after a quick rebuild) in sidings/fiddle yard. Better though just to take your time, can be quicker and cheaper in the long run 

[hayfield]

 

Tiebars fitted as are the last 4 slide chairs

 

 

Final job is to fit a bonding wire from the switch to the stock rails, and final test

[Guest bri.s]

Hi hayfield

 

Great walk through ,just wondering how do you determine where you fix the point blade ends onto the tie bar and gap between the point blade and stock rail on on the tie bar when it's away from the stock rail?

Sorry if my questions not clear I don't know all the correct terminology for stuff lol

Thanks

 

Brian

[hayfield]

Brian

 

Good question and one I failed to explain. Martin Wynn states that the thickness of a 20p piece is the correct width for 00, but for 00 gauge I like to do them slightly wider just in case the odd older loco (like my Mainline J72) is used. 00 gauge is a bit more of a compromise than others and some modellers are more interested in running qualities over looks. Try a 20p piece and see if it works with your stock

[Guest bri.s]

Thankyou hayfield ,

 

Brian

[hayfield]

A bit out of sequence but when I started this last series I had the common crossings already made

 

 

Once you have your Vee, and have tinned the bottom using the plan solder 2 pieces of very thin copperclad, or brass shim where the tip is on the A  timber and B timber. Now form the first wing/closure rail, using the plan as a guide. I leave the rails slightly oversize as its much easier to shorten them, than having to replace one which is too short

 

 

As I said this little jig is so easy to make, I have soldered a piece of rail to a sheet of copperclad. It could be a strip of pine on a piece of ply or MDF

Now you need a piece of metal strip, steel rule will do. I need the bar to sit on top of the copperclad strip on the Vee and I add a strip of copperclad at both ends just to hold everything level I make a mark on the wing rail opposite where the tip of the Vee is located. Using a wing rail gauge (a small flat bar of the correct thickness) I solder the wing/closure rail in place, I find tinning the bottom of the rail aids a good solder joint 

 

 

You now can see the wing rail gap, check that this rail is vertical, if not adjust it. Now check it against your plan, and again adjust if necessary, now fit another piece of copperclad strip or piece of brass where the Y sleeper is

 

 

 

 

Now to fit the other wing/closure rail, you need a much smaller bar to hold the common crossing against the straight edge. Offer the wing/closure rail up using a gauge and solder it up. Check the rail is vertical and if all is OK then put over the plan and again adjust if necessary

 

Again the wing rail gap on the other side

 

 

Snip off the copperclad strips one side

 

 

Then using your oldest file if copperclad file flush with the rail, when done do the other side. Finally check that none of the soldered joints have failed. Then put aside until needed to be fitted to the turnout

 

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by hayfield

[Derekstuart]

Hi John

 

Now I understand what you meant about adding the second wing rail. I had thought up a similar idea but using 2 3pt gauges to achieve the same.

 

BTW (If I haven't already asked this) any opinions on putting the vee in, the stockn rails and then the 2 wings as separate items, not directly connected to the vee, using gauges to correctly locate them. I don't know if it would be as strong but if the rest of the turnout is glued plastic chairs, it can't be any less robust.

 

Derek

Edited August 17, 2015 by Derekstuart

[hayfield]

Derek

 

The way to do this is to use a few copperclad sleepers/timbers. I did this using timbers on the crossing nose position and the 2 timbers either side of it (X,A & B ) I feel its highly unlikely that chairs on their own will do the job. Someone though will no doubt prove me wrong

 

Then use either shim 0.5 mm thick or 0.6 mm thick copperclad strip reduced to 2 mm wide and a bit longer than needed.

 

Solder the tip of the Vee to the centre copperclad timber, then stick the chairs to the timbers as per normal

 

Next you can fit the first wing/closure rail, soldering it at one end and using solvent to stick the chairs at the other

 

Repeat with the other wing/closure rail

 

When happy carefully grind back the surplus copperclad strip/metal shim flush with the rail sides

 

This can be a much easier method for some, certainly worth doing with plastic timbers

 

Which ever method you use it becomes easier with practice, every now and then one becomes a problem. Much easier and quicker to throw the offending part away and start with a new piece, easier said than done though. Just take your time especially when bending the wing/closure rails and soldering them in place, the time will be saver later on in the build

 

Look back at my composite build sequence earlier in the thread

Edited August 18, 2015 by hayfield

[Derekstuart]

Hello John. Thanks for the reply. I didn't make my question very clear I'm afraid, but your tutorial was very clear indeed and I understand how you do it now.

 

What I was thinking was- for use with ply and glued plastic timbers- was to put the vee in (both parts soldered together with a strengthening bar as per your method) but without wing rails. Then put in the stock rails. Once that is solid then put in the wing rails/knuckle parts measuring them from the 2 stock rails with the appropriate gauges.

 

This morning I tried it and it seemed to me to be FAR easier and simpler than other methods I've seen so far (I think everyone needs to find the system that works for them). The two issues that concern me is I) will it prove less robust over time II) if no one else is using this technique, maybe there's a good reason. If there's no problem with those two factors, I can build a turnout in 1/4 of the time and to a standard that appears to work properly. Perhaps a test of sticking it in the footwell of my car and then alternating between full heat and full air conditioning to see if it distorts or weakens joints.

[hayfield]

Derek

 

Its me not understanding your question. When building slips I solder the obtuse (K) crossings in situ. I omit sticking/fitting the whole and half chairs, towards the end of the build I take the turnout off the board remove the timbers, trim the shim/copperclad. Replace the timbers and stick the full and half chairs. Cannot see any problems doing the same with the common crossings 

[martin_wynne]

What I was thinking was- for use with ply and glued plastic timbers- was to put the vee in (both parts soldered together with a strengthening bar as per your method) but without wing rails. Then put in the stock rails. Once that is solid then put in the wing rails/knuckle parts measuring them from the 2 stock rails with the appropriate gauges.

 

Hi Derek,

 

That has been the "standard" track building method for years.

 

I've been much puzzled why so many builders lately are assembling entire crossings first. I think it may derive from finding pre-assembled crossings in turnout kits. Or maybe builders are following prototype practice.

 

For models it is much better to gauge the closure rails and knuckles from the stock rails, and that also makes it much easier to get them aligned with the vee.

 

But there is no agreement about whether the main road stock rail or the vee goes first. I prefer main-side stock rail, vee, turnout-side stock rail.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Derekstuart]

Thank you Gentlemen.

 

There's one thing I've learned from you two chaps (and one or two others) is that very talented people can achieve excellent results by quite different means- it's just finding one that works for them. This system seems to work for me- I just wasn't sure if I'd find any un-expected complications later on.

 

I appreciate that I have taken up a lot of your time and bombarded both forums with questions and your help has been greatly appreciated. I shall now stop asking questions and put this information into practice.

 

Again, my sincere thanks.

[Izzy]

I believe that it is best to lay the crossing first, then the main (straight) stock rail, the matching wing, closure and blade for it, and then gauge the second - diverging - stock rail with the set in it off these, followed by it's relevant wing, closure and blade. The reason for this is that it is all too easy to under/over gauge the stock rails at the blade ends and have problems getting the blades set right, and especially if you file your own blades as I have always done. The blades and set should of course match each other but if you file them up as you build the point then you can 'hone' the second one to match the set of the second stock rail,(which will follow the set of the first blade if done in this order.

 

As far as strength and longevity with plastic chairs on ply sleepers go, I can say that I have yet to encounter any issues with track made in the past, (I tried the idea in about 1983 when Len Newman pressed some of the first moulded chairs into my hands), although most of it now exists on layouts owned by others. However I have always used rivets under the crossing nose/wing rails and past the first slide chair, both for strength and electrical connection. Half chairs being added after laying and soldering up the connections required.

 

By a complete coincidence I am currently playing with the construction of a small P4 test track - I've not worked in the scale/gauge for a couple of decades - using old original parts and include some shots of where I place the rivets should it be of any interest as an alternative to using copperclad, which wasn't available in a suitable thickness in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

Izzy

 

 

[hayfield]

Hi Derek,

 

That has been the "standard" track building method for years.

 

I've been much puzzled why so many builders lately are assembling entire crossings first. I think it may derive from finding pre-assembled crossings in turnout kits. Or maybe builders are following prototype practice.

 

For models it is much better to gauge the closure rails and knuckles from the stock rails, and that also makes it much easier to get them aligned with the vee.

 

But there is no agreement about whether the main road stock rail or the vee goes first. I prefer main-side stock rail, vee, turnout-side stock rail.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

I think the building method depends on the materials being used. Plastic timbers do not like heat, so either you have to substitute the plastic ones for copperclad ones (preferably with metal shim or copperclad strip to create a gap so cosmetic sleepers can be used). Izzy has shown that you could use copper rivets in ply sleepers, two problems firstly you need tools and the parts, secondly its very difficult to fit 2 or 3 rivets in line, then with all those holes next to each other the timbers become weaker. You could as I do with slips and diamonds build the crossing in situ using either metal shim or copperclad strip, if using plastic timbers replacing them with ply whilst soldering up the crossing. I will be building a slip in a couple of days and will use this method with the obtuse (K) crossings

 

I have a process which I am comfortable with to build both Vees and common crossings and I just find it easier building common crossings this way

 

Another reason some have is that they by pre-assembled crossings, I do accept that if building a copperclad turnout it is quicker and easier building a common crossing in situ. I have also built a turnout replacing the plastic sleepers with copperclad ones on the X, A & B timbers on this thread and reported the benefits of doing it this way

 

I have a foot in both camps and hope I have not offended those using the ply & rivet method

[hayfield]

With Martin discussing fitting the straight stock rail first, I thought I would have a go

 

 

Being very mindful of not making a lop sided turnout, I set the chair on the A timber and last heal chair using the common crossing to check the position with gauges

 

 

After fixing the last chair on the toe end I used a steel rule to set the stock rail straight

 

 

Then I fitted the common crossing, was it easier setting the straight rail first? very slightly. But then I had to use the common crossing in setting it. This method may stop some from getting a dog leg in the stock rail, though I find a steel rule to keep everything in line and straight

[Derekstuart]

Hello John

 

I thought you might like to know that I finally finished my first (working) turnout. It is quite reliable, although only tested with non powered bogies/axles and certainly not a WD2-10-0 reversing 30 empty plastic wagons through it, which I believe is 'the test'.

 

As you said before, asking questions is no substitute for practice. This turnout isn't perfect, but I can see what needs to be improved now. Firstly, I will revert to using Exactoscale chairs as I found the CL ones deformed too easy under any pressure. I did find the (purchased) blades might well not have been quite right.

 

What I wanted to report back on was my idea of fixing the wing rails in as a separate item to the vee- I found that the incline of the rail made it quite a challenge to get the vertical check part and then the 1:20 of the closure end of it. So I will carry on with the time honoured way as you describe.

 

Thanks again to you, Martin and others for your help and guidance. I am off now to fire up Templot and have a go at an A6. If this works (I will be using home made blades and crossing) then I will consider practice over and start making ones for use- including the Exactoscale special chairs.

 

Derek