Hayfields turnout workbench

[Donw]

I first used plug in chairs some 30  years ago for 16mm outdoor use plain track sleepers were available for turnouts you could drill your own timbers. A few years ago I was doing some trials of plug in 2mm chairs for the 2mm association plain track was their easitrac slide the rail in track pieces. Now however they are using 3D printed turnout bases that you can just slid the rail in to go with the easitrac. Plug in chairs are good but you really need a printed base for turnouts otherwise the drilling and placement of the timbers is critical.

I do have reservations about using preprinted bases in that it tends to encourage turnouts to be more regular and not as free flowing as can be done using templot where gluing lets you follow a free flowing templot plan with ease. I fit all the chairs needed on a piece of rail then fix a few key chairs before fixing the rest  the chairs then lie at a natural angle to the timber on curved rails.

Martin I think you would find a dab of superglue less of a problem than solvent it may also be worth trying others. Superglue can speed things up I find with butanone it best to hold the chairs in place longer than I would with superglue.

 

Don 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

.

I do have reservations about using preprinted bases in that it tends to encourage turnouts to be more regular and not as free flowing as can be done using templot where gluing lets you follow a free flowing templot plan with ease. I fit all the chairs needed on a piece of rail then fix a few key chairs before fixing the rest  the chairs then lie at a natural angle to the timber on curved rails.

 

Don 

 

 

Don

 

The whole idea is that you create your free flowing track in Templot, not to use any predetermined turnouts. A totally different system to previous types previously available (see link at the bottom)

 

To date turnouts can be printed with the correct chairing

 

Once you have designed a turnout or layout you will be able to export files to 3D printers and or laser cutters (for the track base)

A) for the timbers (these can either be printed in PLA or laser cut from ply) 

B) for the chairs (printed in resin)

if required you can also print filing jigs for the exact crossing angle and switches (printed in PLA)

 

 

Templot plug track

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/

[Donw]

10 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Don

 

The whole idea is that you create your free flowing track in Templot, not to use any predetermined turnouts. A totally different system to previous types previously available (see link at the bottom)

 

To date turnouts can be printed with the correct chairing

 

Once you have designed a turnout or layout you will be able to export files to 3D printers and or laser cutters (for the track base)

A) for the timbers (these can either be printed in PLA or laser cut from ply) 

B) for the chairs (printed in resin)

if required you can also print filing jigs for the exact crossing angle and switches (printed in PLA)

 

 

Templot plug track

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-continued.673/

 

my objection to pre-printed bases applies to buying standard turnout bases. Not having a 3d printer or laser cutter I will stick to buying separate timbers and chairs. I still have quite a lot in stock anyway.

 

Don

[hayfield]

Don

 

As you have said the biggest issue is getting the bases and chairs printed, plus you can only print turnouts at this moment. But I think as demand grows access to either printers or printing services will grow. The ability to print three way turnouts, crossings and slips will become available in the future.

 

The other factor is that the cost of track building parts is getting evermore expensive, copperclad turnouts are now not a cheap option. But then look at the cost of British Finescale turnout kits (£22.99), not the expensive option when compared to the Exactoscale P4 kit company kits were available, or a Peco bullhead turnout (£38.25)

 

With Templot we are at the early stages of the journey, for a turnout (whatever size, curvature or gauge) both a base and a set of chairs can be printed, granted you need access to a pair of 3D printers. You can also print bespoke (any angle) Vee filing jigs and switch rail jigs 

 

Looking at how much filing jigs cost now (£40 each) there are massive savings to be made by printing turnouts, I think once a 3D printer owner sees a good business opportunity, services will become available, may take a year or two but just look at some of the 3D printed models that are available to buy now, the quality is quite outstanding

 

But this is not the demise of traditional turnout building as printing an item will never replace the enjoyment let alone the pleasure of making it yourself.   

 

 

 

[Donw]

I am just an old fogie I started with ply and rivet.  The jig for the crossings was apiece of wood with panel pins knocked in. I'll say no more or it will turn into a modeller's equivalent of the four Yorkshire men.

If 3d printing lets more people build better track its a good thing. But you can build good track without filing jigs etc. Handy if you want a curved turnout that needs say a 1:8.5 crossing.

 

Don

[Ian_H]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

you need access to a pair of 3D printers

 

 

Hi John, hope you dont mind me jumping in with a question ........ why a pair of 3D printers?

 

Ian

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ian_H

[martin_wynne]

16 minutes ago, Donw said:

But you can build good track without filing jigs etc. Handy if you want a curved turnout that needs say a 1:8.5 crossing

 

Hi Don,

 

Here you go. A curved C-8.5 turnout. Exported from Templot (free) and ready to be 3D printed. Also files to print the filing jigs for it if you want.

 

Can be exported for any gauge or scale from N gauge to full-size. For any curving radius. Any turnout size from A-4 to F-20.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

19 minutes ago, Ian_H said:

 

Hi John, hope you dont mind me jumping in with a question ........ why a pair of 3D printers?

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian,

 

Resin printer for the chairs. FDM (filament) printer for the timbering base.

 

 

Martin.

[Ian_H]

3 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Ian,

 

Resin printer for the chairs. FDM (filament) printer for the timbering base.

 

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

 

Thank you for clarifying the situation re a pair of 3D printers. If you don't mind me asking what is the situation with the regard to the timber track bases using a CNC laser cutter, I seem to remember something about it ..... but I could be wrong.

Ian

[martin_wynne]

7 minutes ago, Ian_H said:

Hi Martin,

 

Thank you for clarifying the situation re a pair of 3D printers. If you don't mind me asking what is the situation with the regard to the timber track bases using a CNC laser cutter, I seem to remember something about it ..... but I could be wrong.

Ian

 

Hi Ian,

 

Yes, timbering bases can be milled from solid if you have a bench CNC miller/engraver machine. It uses the same files from Templot as for the laser-cutting. This is EM gauge in MDF:

 

 

I haven't yet provided any detailed notes about it -- I assume that if you have such a machine you would know what to do.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

8 minutes ago, Ian_H said:

Hi Martin,

 

Thank you for clarifying the situation re a pair of 3D printers. If you don't mind me asking what is the situation with the regard to the timber track bases using a CNC laser cutter, I seem to remember something about it ..... but I could be wrong.

Ian

 

 

Ian

 

Sorry in the delay in replying but Martin is so knowledgeable on this subject, James Walters has been testing laser cutting the timbers, however after seeing the latest set of timber prints he is considering going over to FDM bases. I think the idea is to create a file for laser cutting the turnout(s) you require and send them off to one of the laser cutting companies.

 

Perhaps either Martin of James can send a link to the appropriate thread on Templot club. 

 

I must say the quality of the latest prints are first class. 

[martin_wynne]

James Walters has just released his review of the low-cost Alkaid printer:

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Prior to me starting out on my 3D track building journey I thought for old times sake I would have one last go at ply and rivet track building, so started a new thread

 

 

[hayfield]

Whilst I have a companion thread running on my exploits in 3D printed track I thought I would share a few items that might be of interest to track builders

 

 

First up I printed a track base for an 0-16.5 turnout, whilst this is a simple base it has no plug sockets and can be used with more normal track building methods, whilst its a straight forward A6 with the timbers adjusted for 16.5 , it can be made to any size or curvature you require and the base is far more stable than other build methods I have used, best of all this base cost about 40p to print, and just needs a meter and a half of rail

 

 

The base has been painted and waiting for the rails which will be glued and spiked (though using Butanone ABS chairs will stick to it). There is no reason why this cannot be done in 4mm scale if you don't fancy plug track, or the rail profile is not supported by Templot plug track. But I cannot see any reason not to use plug track

 

 

One old problem is accurately filing Vee's and switch rails. Templot plug track has come up with easy to use and accurate filing jig, at what ever angle you require. Best of all is they use about £2 worth of filament, plus some bolts. But the best thing is you are not limited to a few standard angles

 

 

Simply push the rail through the slot and fasten

 

 

Just a few seconds of filing and you have an accurate angle that just requires some emery cloth to finish

 

 

Best of all they are reusable, with the society filing jigs costing £40 if you have access to them, you are limited to 4 differing angles. You could print off a 6.689 degree angle or any other non standard angle, a bonus when making 3 ways

 

 

Hot on the printer is the first of 3 switch rail filing jigs, you need 3 jigs as one jig is required to file the rail backs, but you need a left and a right hand front filing jig as they are opposites of each other. But like many builders, I have found the society jigs hard to use, these Templot jigs are so much easier and quicker to use. Easier to access and far cheaper

 

You might see a downside of it taking about 8 hours to print each jig, but the printer just carries on all on its own. I suppose you might want to have the occasional glance but the novelty of watching the machine working soon wears off.

 

I will post over the next few days the results of both the prints and what they make

 

For those who might want to have a quick glance at my attempts to 3D print click on the link below

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

one thing about the headlong rush to produce things using new technology such as 3D printers is recognising how much you will use them for your modelling. The cost of S4/EMGS jigs is relatively high if you don't intend to build a lot of trackwork. Likewise the purchase price for3D filament and 3D SLA printers. While the latter can be used for more than creating track, filament printing is often too coarse for finer detail models. Both require learning how to get the best out of them and also 3D CAD skills to create what you want.

 

All well and good if you are building a large layout or are a serial layout builder. For me those don't apply and building P4 track in the traditional way has been the best and most economic way (both in terms of time and expense). I was also fortunate in having access to the jigs without buying them, although I have produced vees and switch rails without them. To speed up building plain track in 60ft  scale panels I had a simple jig laser cut, at very little cost.

 

While I am no advocate of "cheap is best" it isn't always necessary to invest a lot in some aspects of railway modelling to achieve results.

 

Jol

[martin_wynne]

34 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Both require learning how to get the best out of them and also 3D CAD skills to create what you want.

 

Hi Jol,

 

No CAD skills needed for Templot plug track. Templot generates the 3D files ready to print.

 

Martin.

Edited December 7, 2023 by martin_wynne
typo

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

John,

 

one thing about the headlong rush to produce things using new technology such as 3D printers is recognising how much you will use them for your modelling. The cost of S4/EMGS jigs is relatively high if you don't intend to build a lot of trackwork. Likewise the purchase price for3D filament and 3D SLA printers. While the latter can be used for more than creating track, filament printing is often too coarse for finer detail models. Both require learning how to get the best out of them and also 3D CAD skills to create what you want.

 

All well and good if you are building a large layout or are a serial layout builder. For me those don't apply and building P4 track in the traditional way has been the best and most economic way (both in terms of time and expense). I was also fortunate in having access to the jigs without buying them, although I have produced vees and switch rails without them. To speed up building plain track in 60ft  scale panels I had a simple jig laser cut, at very little cost.

 

While I am no advocate of "cheap is best" it isn't always necessary to invest a lot in some aspects of railway modelling to achieve results.

 

Jol

 

 

Jol

 

Thanks for the post, I totally agree with you its not for everyone, but firstly these jigs are only available to members and can easily be resold at near or more face value, To buy the 3 jigs I have it would now cost over £100 to buy them and the switch rail jig is more or less unusable, or very difficult to get on with. I find the Fast track jig much easier to use and works with flatbotten track from code 75 to 100. They are limited to one crossing angle and whilst designed for flatbottom rail works fine with code 75 bull head

 

However after seeing the results at Scaleforum  I now have both a FDM and resin machines. at a cost of a modern 4mm scale top of the range loco

 

I have only just started to use the FDM machine, but the learning curve is very low and the results are way beyond my expectations. I have just printed and used one of the switch rail jigs, cost about £2 and a couple of nuts and bolts

 

 

 

Its starting to pay me back instantly, I have one of the prototype filing jigs from 2 years ago and its still working well, I accept your argument but the Templot Plug track gives the average modeler the ability to build turnouts to the same high quality as the best track builders, in some cases with even more detail

 

But why stop at track building (once you have finished building the track) obtain files for other items !! 

[Jol Wilkinson]

9 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Jol,

 

No CAD skills needed for Templot plug track. Templot generates the 3D files ready to print.

 

Martin.

 

Martin,

 

no CAD skill needed with Templot generated files as you say. However, if you buy the two 3D printers needed then it would be pointless not to use them for other aspects of you model building activities, hence the "need" to learn how to design in 3D software.

 

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Jol

 

Thanks for the post, I totally agree with you its not for everyone, but firstly these jigs are only available to members and can easily be resold at near or more face value, To buy the 3 jigs I have it would now cost over £100 to buy them and the switch rail jig is more or less unusable, or very difficult to get on with. I find the Fast track jig much easier to use and works with flatbotten track from code 75 to 100. They are limited to one crossing angle and whilst designed for flatbottom rail works fine with code 75 bull head

 

However after seeing the results at Scaleforum  I now have both a FDM and resin machines. at a cost of a modern 4mm scale top of the range loco

 

I have only just started to use the FDM machine, but the learning curve is very low and the results are way beyond my expectations. I have just printed and used one of the switch rail jigs, cost about £2 and a couple of nuts and bolts

 

 

 

Its starting to pay me back instantly, I have one of the prototype filing jigs from 2 years ago and its still working well, I accept your argument but the Templot Plug track gives the average modeler the ability to build turnouts to the same high quality as the best track builders, in some cases with even more detail

 

But why stop at track building (once you have finished building the track) obtain files for other items !! 

John,

 

no doubt there are benefits to using Martin's jigs which the older designs can't provide as they had to be manufactured in a different way, probably forty or so years ago. I haven't found them too difficult to use and have been able to produce the P4 points for my layout (twenty nine plus a single slip) that have worked well and been reliable. I was able to use jigs owned by my local S4 Area Group, which have seen service with a number of modellers over the years. However, before that, I did build points without the use of filing jigs.

 

Yes, you can obtain files for other products to use with your 3D printers but as is often the case, there will be things that aren't available if you want to model a particular railway, location or period in time.

 

I have looked at the cost of 3D printers and to get a couple of the ones that are often recommended as being good beginners models would cost about £500. No doubt someone will challenge me on that but I have found that, where modelling tools are concerned, it is false economy to not buy good quality. However, as I have built the track that I need for my layout and am probably in that situation of SELE (stock exceeds life expectation) with the unbuilt kits I own I have little incentive to get into 3D design and printing. Don't however think that I am  model railway Luddite, I have used a London Road Models RSU since they were introduced, have used laser cutting for my own designs of buildings and produced etched items for my own projects where practical. I was also a reasonably early user of Martin's Templot, in the days when you had to buy a license to use it.

 

Jol

[Vistisen]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Jol

 

Thanks for the post, I totally agree with you its not for everyone, but firstly these jigs are only available to members and can easily be resold at near or more face value, To buy the 3 jigs I have it would now cost over £100 to buy them and the switch rail jig is more or less unusable, or very difficult to get on with. I find the Fast track jig much easier to use and works with flatbotten track from code 75 to 100. They are limited to one crossing angle and whilst designed for flatbottom rail works fine with code 75 bull head

 

However after seeing the results at Scaleforum  I now have both a FDM and resin machines. at a cost of a modern 4mm scale top of the range loco

 

I have only just started to use the FDM machine, but the learning curve is very low and the results are way beyond my expectations. I have just printed and used one of the switch rail jigs, cost about £2 and a couple of nuts and bolts

 

 

 

Its starting to pay me back instantly, I have one of the prototype filing jigs from 2 years ago and its still working well, I accept your argument but the Templot Plug track gives the average modeler the ability to build turnouts to the same high quality as the best track builders, in some cases with even more detail

 

But why stop at track building (once you have finished building the track) obtain files for other items !! 

I have what might be a silly question.  Are the filling jigs one use, throw away items? Surely when filing a rail which is metal with a metal file the plastic is too soft. I would expect the file to grate the plastic like a piece of parmesan cheese 

 

[martin_wynne]

24 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

the ones that are often recommended as being good beginners models would cost about £500.

 

Hi Jol,

 

Which ones? Recommended by who?

 

1. Geeetech Alkaid resin printer, £90 delivered in UK. Excellent.

 

2. Kingroon FDM printer, £180 post free in UK. Excellent.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

10 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I have what might be a silly question.  Are the filling jigs one use, throw away items? Surely when filing a rail which is metal with a metal file the plastic is too soft. I would expect the file to grate the plastic like a piece of parmesan cheese 

 

 

The plastic is toughened PLA. The file skids over the surface and barely harms the jig. The jigs are good for several dozen rails or more. See the jig instructions:

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/using-the-templot-rail-filing-jigs.728/

 

Martin.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Jol,

 

Which ones? Recommended by who?

 

1. Geeetech Alkaid resin printer, £90 delivered in UK. Excellent.

 

2. Kingroon FDM printer, £180 post free in UK. Excellent.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

 

recommended in various RMweb and other model railway forums. For example the Elgoo and Anycubic are well recommended. Likewise Monoprice for filament printers. The lowest price on the web I can find for your two suggestions are £119 and £139. It seems that internet pricing is a bit of a minefield as are the recommendations on various sites that an internet search provides (ignoring the sponsored or advert related ones).

 

However I haven't researched it that deeply, as I don't plan to go down that route. 

 

Jol

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Martin,

 

no CAD skill needed with Templot generated files as you say. However, if you buy the two 3D printers needed then it would be pointless not to use them for other aspects of you model building activities, hence the "need" to learn how to design in 3D software.

 

John,

 

no doubt there are benefits to using Martin's jigs which the older designs can't provide as they had to be manufactured in a different way, probably forty or so years ago. I haven't found them too difficult to use and have been able to produce the P4 points for my layout (twenty nine plus a single slip) that have worked well and been reliable.

 

The first issue I have found is with the switch rail jigs, and I am not alone in this, many others have reported this

The Vee jigs have a benefit of being able to hold the rails in position whilst soldering. There is no need to solder vees together in plug track, its a push fit which is far easier

 

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

I was able to use jigs owned by my local S4 Area Group, which have seen service with a number of modellers over the years. However, before that, I did build points without the use of filing jigs.

 

Here by lies the problem, most modelers do not have access to these jigs, If they do buy them a set will cost £120. Restricted angles available

 

Templot jigs as far as the switch rails are concerned are far easier to use let alone very much cheaper and in my opinion produce a better result

 

 

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Yes, you can obtain files for other products to use with your 3D printers but as is often the case, there will be things that aren't available if you want to model a particular railway, location or period in time.

 

I have looked at the cost of 3D printers and to get a couple of the ones that are often recommended as being good beginners models would cost about £500.

 

I have spent half of that and the cost saving if you need a few turnouts and crossings will be soon repaid, technology has moved on and newer machines are always improving

 

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

No doubt someone will challenge me on that but I have found that, where modelling tools are concerned, it is false economy to not buy good quality. However, as I have built the track that I need for my layout and am probably in that situation of SELE (stock exceeds life expectation) with the unbuilt kits I own I have little incentive to get into 3D design and printing.

 

You are using a method of ply and rivet, followed using plastic chairs. I have seen a P4/EM gauge letter press punch with accessories sell for upwards of £150, that's not before you buy a set of gauges (at least £40 ) and the cost of plastic parts are going through the roof. If you are not using ply and rivet you face the cost of buying a pre made common crossings or face the problem of making them. But stop and think, it is far more likely someone knows a person with a 3D printer, cost argument goes out of the window. or a few can share the cost between them, or a club investment

 

17 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Don't however think that I am  model railway Luddite, I have used a London Road Models RSU since they were introduced, have used laser cutting for my own designs of buildings and produced etched items for my own projects where practical. I was also a reasonably early user of Martin's Templot, in the days when you had to buy a license to use it.

 

Jol

 

 

 

I did have all the misgivings you have and I can see where you are coming from, it may not suite you, but there is a whole realm of modelers out there who do not have your skills, for them its perfect

 

Keep up the good work you building skills are encouraging others to follow suite

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by hayfield

[polybear]

I suspect prices might go up before Chrimbo as perhaps demand increases for presents?  Holding off until January might be worth a gamble....

[martin_wynne]

22 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Hi Martin,

 

recommended in various RMweb and other model railway forums. For example the Elgoo and Anycubic are well recommended. Likewise Monoprice for filament printers. The lowest price on the web I can find for your two suggestions are £119 and £139. It seems that internet pricing is a bit of a minefield as are the recommendations on various sites that an internet search provides (ignoring the sponsored or advert related ones).

 

However I haven't researched it that deeply, as I don't plan to go down that route. 

 

Jol

 

@Jol Wilkinson

 

Hi Jol,

 

 

 

Current UK price £84 + £7 postage. 2-3 day delivery from a warehouse in Leicester:

 

 

 

https://www.geeetech.com/alkaid-lcd-light-curing-resin-3d-printer-p-1210.html

 

 

Martin. (no connection with Geeetech).

Edited December 8, 2023 by martin_wynne
link added