Hayfields turnout workbench

[DavidLong]

John,

 

Is the Templot for the Barry Slip created by overlaying two turnouts face-to-face? I don't think that Martin has created an automated way of producing one unless I've missed it.

 

David

Edited August 5, 2022 by DavidLong

[hayfield]

David

 

Yes, I cheated a bit by not refreshing my bad memory in shortening some rail lengths. I am afraid my strengths are in building, not the creative side

 

                                                                                                   

 

Here is a standard Barry slip I designed and built last year for my own use, this time  using plastic timbers and chairs strangely enough also to EM gauge, which is in my opinion is becoming rightly more popular, thanks to the EMGS rtr turnouts and Wayne's simple to build kits.

 

 

[Ian_H]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 to EM gauge, which is in my opinion is becoming rightly more popular, thanks to the EMGS rtr turnouts and Wayne's simple to build kits.

 

 

Hi John, Without doubt, EM does look very good, as can be seen with your Barry Slip and, I would assume that the building of an EM Gauge Switchs/crossings will be no more difficult than building in 00. Unfortunately, the need, difficulty and cost to modify the wheel sets of locomotives will imho continue to make it prohibitive to the majority of modellers.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Ian_H
Keyboard playing up;-)

[DavidLong]

John,

 

Here's a 1:6 Outside Barry Slip in 2FS. Does this look ok? Done in PCB I suspect that the gapping may be interesting!

 

 

David

[hayfield]

David

 

Your plan looks good to me, you have given yourself more room between the slip roads than I did.

 

If you are using copperclad construction, do plan your isolation cuts first, I would also make the isolation cuts before soldering any rails, and its a good time to fill the isolation gaps with filler and its so much easier to sand the filler flat when there are no rails to get in the way

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Ian_H said:

Hi John, Without doubt, EM does look very good, as can be seen with your Barry Slip and, I would assume that the building of an EM Gauge Switchs/crossings will be no more difficult than building in 00. Unfortunately, the need, difficulty and cost to modify the wheel sets of locomotives will imho continue to make it prohibitive to the majority of modellers.

 

Ian

 

You are probably right, but then a few decide to convert a wagon or two, then a loco, perhaps with a view of a cameo layout. Before you know you are hooked

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, hayfield said:

David

 

Yes, I cheated a bit by not refreshing my bad memory in shortening some rail lengths. I am afraid my strengths are in building, not the creative side

 

                                                                                                   

 

Here is a standard Barry slip I designed and built last year for my own use, this time  using plastic timbers and chairs strangely enough also to EM gauge, which is in my opinion is becoming rightly more popular, thanks to the EMGS rtr turnouts and Wayne's simple to build kits.

 

 

Here's a "modeller's" version that I built last year for one of my fiddle yards. 30" radius on the slip roads with a  in 5 angle.

 

 

 

Crude but effective, as we used to say.

 

[hayfield]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Here's a "modeller's" version that I built last year for one of my fiddle yards. 30" radius on the slip roads with a  in 5 angle.

 

 

 

Crude but effective, as we used to say.

 

 St Enodoc

 

This used to be the norm in the 50's & 60's (austerity was not just on the real railways) if anything looks to be very generous with the amount of timbers used in a hand made fiddleyard turnout or crossing,

 

Its much better to have something that works perfectly than something that looks good but fails to perform. I like the way the point motors have been attached

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 St Enodoc

 

This used to be the norm in the 50's & 60's (austerity was not just on the real railways) if anything looks to be very generous with the amount of timbers used in a hand made fiddleyard turnout or crossing,

 

Its much better to have something that works perfectly than something that looks good but fails to perform. I like the way the point motors have been attached

Thanks John. The motors (Cobalt iP Digital) are offset laterally to avoid the baseboard framing!

[mullie]

Hayfield

 

You mention 'Wayne's simple to build kits,' how do I find them? I have built a lot of PCB based track and really should try some proper chaired track. Lockdown slowed me down as I had loads of PCB parts in stock so extended my layout using those which for a lightly laid branch line was ok.

 

As my layout is modular I would like to build some properly chaired track next time I extend.

 

On the subject of EM, I changed to the gauge in 2018 as I felt my modelling needed refreshing and I've never regretted it although it can be challenging at times. I think it is a different mindset as each piece of track work or item of rolling stock takes on increased significance because it has to be built or adapted. As I've also scratch built pretty much all the buildings, a model of Liverpool Street was never on the agenda!

 

This is a great thread, thanks for posting.

 

Martyn

Edited August 10, 2022 by mullie

[hayfield]

Martyn

 

I built one of Wayne's first generation kits and it fell together, very simple to build and looks the part. A cleaver bit of engineering 

 

I cannot see if you can build copperclad turnouts why migrating to chaired track would be an issue. Certainly if you can fabricate the switch rails and the common crossing rails, where is the problem ? 

 

Some get frightened by fabricating the common crossings, if that worries you then use a few copperclad timbers and use 0.5mm risers to go between the timber and rail and solder the crossing up, file the excess off the risers so you can glue half chairs in place.

 

Or do as I do some times do. I glue the wing rails in place with cut down check rail chairs, works a treat.

 

 

The B & X chairs are cut down 0.8mm check rail chairs (you could do the same with the A chairs). Fit the Vee (have 0.5mm spacers between the timber and the vee, fit 1the first wing rail (using gauges )and let the solvent set hard, fit the second one exactly the same. Finally once the turnout is built solder a bonding wire across the wing rails and vee

 

 

This is a second cheat for EM & P4 gauges, its an Exactoscale turnout base (this one is an A5)  and is what I used the the turnout above it . The S4 stores sell them, use EM gauges for EM and P4 gauges for P4, though I have a friend who built an Exactoscale turnout kit without using any track gauges (he may have cheated using an electronic calliper) and it worked fine. The benefit of these bases is firstly speed, plus slide chair timbers don't move. I have adapted the base for bonding wires and the timber tiebar

 

The Exactoscale turnout and crossing bases like the special chairs originated from Exactoscale/s old turnout and crossing kits, I have no idea why folk ignore them and the special chairs as they make life so easy when building turnouts and don't forget they are also available for diamond crossings and slips. The diamond and slip chairs are very useful on their own when scratch building 

[hayfield]

I have been given the opportunity of seeing how perhaps we might be building trackwork in the future. These items are development samples of a system which is being designed to work with Templot. This is a project in the early phase of development, its in the early design phase so nothing is available to buy

 

The simple idea is to be able to to 3D print your designs, saying it is the simple task. its taken a long time to get where we are and work is being carried out by enthusiasts not any commercial enterprises

 

This is not any form of critique on the system, just a glimpse of what the future may be. no doubt the development will evolve

 

 

These two images show the idea is to print off plastic bases which you plug chairs into

 

 

Holes of varying sizes depending on which chairs are to be used

 

 

 

These are 3D printed chairs in resin, the idea being you form the rail, thread the chairs on to it, then simply plus it in to the sleepers/timbers

Left is standard and bridge chairs, centre slide chairs, right are J chairs

 

 

 

A closer view of the chairs

 

 

A different angle showing the plugs (sorry about the focus)

 

This is simply a glimpse of where the hobby is going, where it leads to may differ as the project evolves

 

Certainly much improved from some early prototype work I bought from some private work I obtained and certainly up to the quality of items from Modelu and Off The Rails, both of whom provide exquisite models 

 

Anyway back to using C&L and Exactoscale for the foreseeable future, but who thought 40 years ago we would have printers and computers at home !!!

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

have been given the opportunity of seeing how perhaps we might be building trackwork in the future.

 

Thanks John.

 

More info at:

 

  https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?forums/plug-track.34/

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/the-book-of-plug-track.529/

 

Note that Templot is free, the exported 3D files are free. But you do need:

 

1. a computer.

 

2. for the timbering bases, a 3D FDM (filament) printer, or a CNC miller/engraver, or a laser cutter.

 

Or a friend who has one, or a club, or you might send the files for commercial 3D printing. No CAD design skills are needed, the exported files are ready to use on the printer.

 

3. for the chairs, a 3D resin printer. No CAD design skills are needed, the exported files are ready to use on the printer.

 

No gauges needed, no adhesive needed -- the chairs are a press fit (or a light tap) in the timbering base, using a suitable implement on the rail top:

 

 

 

If you have the printers, the cost of materials is low. A typical timbering base for a turnout would be less than 50p. 300 chairs cost less than £1. You also need some rail of course. The chairs can be adjusted for a good sliding fit on the rail.

 

At present you can do plain track panels, with wider timbers and joint chairs at each end. The turnouts are still being developed.

 

(The timbering bases in the photos are test pieces off the 3D printer, they are not suitable for meaningful use.) 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

15 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Thanks John.

 

More info at:

 

  https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?forums/plug-track.34/

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/the-book-of-plug-track.529/

 

Note that Templot is free, the exported 3D files are free. But you do need:

 

1. a computer.

 

2. for the timbering bases, a 3D FDM (filament) printer, or a CNC miller/engraver, or a laser cutter.

 

Or a friend who has one, or a club, or you might send the files for commercial 3D printing. No CAD design skills are needed, the exported files are ready to use on the printer.

 

3. for the chairs, a 3D resin printer. No CAD design skills are needed, the exported files are ready to use on the printer.

 

No gauges needed, no adhesive needed -- the chairs are a press fit (or a light tap) in the timbering base, using a suitable implement on the rail top:

 

 

 

If you have the printers, the cost of materials is low. A typical timbering base for a turnout would be less than 50p. 300 chairs cost less than £1. You also need some rail of course. The chairs can be adjusted for a good sliding fit on the rail.

 

At present you can do plain track panels, with wider timbers and joint chairs at each end. The turnouts are still being developed.

 

(The timbering bases in the photos are test pieces off the 3D printer, they are not suitable for meaningful use.) 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

Thanks very much for the far more informative post,

 

I have not had a play with them yet ( very much looking forward to doing so ) and did not know how much and what to reveal

 

What the system will produce is a bespoke turnout exactly to the size and geometry ( straight of curved) the turnout has been designed. In other words rather than curving a straight turnout by cutting and or removing the webs, the turnout will be produced with the appropriate radius. Also with the chairs being plug in there is no need to cut rails where there are acute angles

 

The other thing that is very interesting is the 3D printed Vee filing jig 

 

What switch size is the print please ?

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I did not know how much and what to reveal

 

What switch size is the print please ?

 

Hi John,

 

There are no secrets -- you can say whatever you want. This is not a commercial product, I'm not selling anything. It's all free.

 

Think of it as Templot producing 3D prints instead of printing paper templates. Just as with those, it is up to you to provide the 3D printers.

 

An important difference from using a 3D printer for other models is that you don't need a CAD program or any CAD design skills. The 3D files from Templot are ready to use.

 

But what you can't say is that it's finished! 😀 It probably never will be. Templot is my hobby. There is still a lot more to do on the Plug Track project, and it is all still experimental. Things change between one Templot program update and the next.  

 

The switch in that sample is part of a B-switch in EM -- but it's got 8 timbers missing between the two ends -- for 4 more slide chairs and 4 switch heel block chairs. I'm still working on those chairs. But I have done the bridge chairs beyond the heel, as you can see. The print is just a test piece. It also has 3 sleepers of approach track, with a wider 12" sleeper at the switch front rail joint, and 4 joint chairs.

 

I've been printing many such tests to try different chair fits. You can adjust Templot between a loose fit which needs gluing, to a tight bash fit which needs a sharp tap on the rail top with a pin hammer and a block of wood to seat the chair -- or any fit in between.

 

You can also adjust the chair dimensions to match your rail, tweak the track gauge if necessary, and make Plug Track for any gauge or scale or track layout, just like the paper prints.

 

There are also options for the timbering base instead of 3D printing. You might prefer laser-cut plywood, or if you have a CNC miller/engraver you can make one-piece bases in MDF like this:

 

 

 

The miller which I used for that costs about the same as a 3D printer, it's this one:

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mostics-Upgrade-Machine-Engraving-Emergency/dp/B0956TJFH5/

 

The resin printer which I use for the chairs is this one:

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08FR2Y1PT/

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I have had a bit of a break from track building over the past few weeks, as house and a Springside 14xx have got in the way

 

This morning I have to think about Scaleforum, Phil is taking the main stand to Stafford for the weekend, but asked me to fly the C&L flag at Scaleforum for him this weekend. Its a very small stand with limited stocks, but will give me the ability for a chat or two which normally is a bit difficult.

 

As I said its a small selection of track building parts and any collections of pre-orders, do stop and say hello if you are there

[Lacathedrale]

It's probably a silly question, but do I need to bend the rail back after filing the first angle on a V?

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

It's probably a silly question, but do I need to bend the rail back after filing the first angle on a V?

 

Hi William,

 

Ideally yes. Otherwise you won't have a full depth of solid metal at the tip -- the rail web will form an undercut.

 

This is the process to get a solid tip (red is the rail web, yellow is the rail head and foot):

 

 

After filing the first face, bend it back into line with the rail edge.

 

If using a jig, put the bent rail the other way up back in the jig.

 

File the second face.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

It's probably a silly question, but do I need to bend the rail back after filing the first angle on a V?

 

 

Sorry to upset the apple cart, I for one do not do it in 4mm scale. Simply as it cannot be seen from normal viewing distances.

 

In modelling we all accept compromises, for me its acceptable. I would rather spend time on areas that are visible, example using the correct chairs rather than chopping up standard chairs to fit

[Lacathedrale]

10 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

...After filing the first face, bend it back into line with the rail edge.

 

 

Thanks, Martin - how do you reliably get the edge back in line? I'm sure it's a finesse thing but I always seem to end up with some degree of concavity instead of flat plane on the face - because it's tapered even gripping with small pliers they rotate and 'crank' it rather than bending it per se.

 

41 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Sorry to upset the apple cart, I for one do not do it in 4mm scale. Simply as it cannot be seen from normal viewing distances.

 

In modelling we all accept compromises, for me its acceptable. I would rather spend time on areas that are visible, example using the correct chairs rather than chopping up standard chairs to fit

 

This is after all, your thread @hayfield (by the way, what's your real name if you don't mind me asking? I'm going to Scaleforum and it would be good to say 'hi'!). If you decide not to do this, won't the tip of the vee have two nubs where the head and foot of the rail project over the web due to their increased thickness? Do you blunt it back to that point?

[martin_wynne]

36 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Thanks, Martin - how do you reliably get the edge back in line? I'm sure it's a finesse thing but I always seem to end up with some degree of concavity instead of flat plane on the face - because it's tapered even gripping with small pliers they rotate and 'crank' it rather than bending it per se.

 

Hi William,

 

This is the way to get precise bends in rail, rather than using pliers:

 

 

Move the oddments of rail closer together for a more precisely located bend. But that will then require a sharper tap to make the bend, which might mark the rail. Some trial and error needed for best results -- and a bit of practice of course. But it costs nothing.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Brassey]

17 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi William,

 

This is the way to get precise bends in rail, rather than using pliers:

 

 

Move the oddments of rail closer together for a more precisely located bend. But that will then require a sharper tap to make the bend, which might mark the rail. Some trial and error needed for best results -- and a bit of practice of course. But it costs nothing.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

This NOT the way to create bends in the rail as it creates far too sharp a bend.  How do I know...

 

For the same reason the crossing V has a blunt rather than sharp end (a fact often unmentioned), you don't want a sharp point in the opposite rail either.

[martin_wynne]

16 minutes ago, Brassey said:

This NOT the way to create bends in the rail as it creates far too sharp a bend.  How do I know...

 

For the same reason the crossing V has a blunt rather than sharp end (a fact often unmentioned), you don't want a sharp point in the opposite rail either.

 

The sharpness of the bend is entirely under your control:

 

 

The blunt nose is not unmentioned by me -- I have lost track of the number of times I have posted about the blunt nose on a vee:

 

 

 

The red marks on the template show the theoretical sharp nose position, and the extent of the knuckle bend radius. It is worth printing a second template so that you can try the rails against it without the timbers in the way.

 

A sharp nose looks awful, and overhangs the timber in fresh air.

 

Also for best results ramp the top of the nose down by a few thou below the wing rails, to match the coning angle on the wheels as they run off the wing rail. As on the prototype.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[DavidLong]

14 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi William,

 

Ideally yes. Otherwise you won't have a full depth of solid metal at the tip -- the rail web will form an undercut.

 

This is the process to get a solid tip (red is the rail web, yellow is the rail head and foot):

 

 

After filing the first face, bend it back into line with the rail edge.

 

If using a jig, put the bent rail the other way up back in the jig.

 

File the second face.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

I learnt about this from Tony Wilkins' writings in the Model Railway Constructor forty years ago and I've used this method ever since and that's in 2FS with code 40 rail. The difficult and often frustrating part with Code 40 is retaining the foot on the inside edge which isn't large to begin with on BH rail. For some strange reason I always find it easier with the switch on one side of the point but not the other.

Tony also produced a (early) computer tabulation of the dimensions of standard point work for the 'Big 4' companies. This was my guide until Templot rode to the rescue . . . 

You may just be able to make out the retained foot on the left side switch on the attached photo:

 

David

 

[Brassey]

5 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

The sharpness of the bend is entirely under your control:

 

 

The blunt nose is not unmentioned by me -- I have lost track of the number of times I have posted about the blunt nose on a vee:

 

 

 

The red marks on the template show the theoretical sharp nose position, and the extent of the knuckle bend radius. It is worth printing a second template so that you can try the rails against it without the timbers in the way.

 

A sharp nose looks awful, and overhangs the timber in fresh air.

 

Also for best results ramp the top of the nose down by a few thou below the wing rails, to match the coning angle on the wheels as they run off the wing rail. As on the prototype.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Thanks for clarifying Martin. I didn’t mean you with my comment on the blank nose on V’s!  My main source of info was the S4 Society Manual and Iain Rice’s book. If it was in there then I missed it. 
 

and it makes more sense to make knuckle bends with a round bar than with a sharp blow on a pointy screwdriver.  
 

I wish I’d known all this BEFORE I built my track.