RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 25, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, hayfield said: Exactoscale turnout timbers £5 enough for 3 turnouts Chairs 500 = £20 Slide chairs 100 = £8.50 I think you will need about 120 chairs per turnout. Chairs and timbers £7 ish plus rail Martins/Templot system is still very much in development, but looks to be very promising, I would love to get my hands on some samples Hi John, It's difficult to give costs for the Plug Track, but it will be a lot less than that for material costs. Some ball-park figures for 4mm scale: 300 chairs, about £1 in materials. timbering base for a turnout, about 30p in materials. Plus rail. Of course you also need a resin printer for the chairs (about £200, varies a lot) and a FDM (filament) printer for the timbers (about £200, varies a lot). Maybe a friend could have one and you the other? Or your local club? Bear in mind if you have them there is lots of other model stuff they can be used for. The difference with Plug Track is that you don't need any CAD skills, the files from Templot are ready to use on the printer. To design your own stuff you need to learn CAD. I must get on with the Plug Track (you can do the plain track now). cheers, Martin. Edited July 25, 2022 by martin_wynne typo 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 24 minutes ago, martin_wynne said: Hi John, It's difficult to give costs for the Plug Track, but it will be a lot less than that for material costs. Some ball-park figures for 4mm scale: 300 chairs, about £1 in materials. timbering base for a turnout, about 30p in materials. Plus rail. Of course you also need a resin printer for the chairs (about £200, varies a lot) and a FDM (filament) printer for the timbers (about £200, varies a lot). Maybe a friend could have one and you the other? Bear in mind if you have them there is lots of other model stuff they can be used for. The difference with Plug Track is that you don't need any CAD skills, the files from Templot are ready to use on the printer. To design your own stuff you need to learn CAD. I must get on with the Plug Track (you can do the plain track now). cheers, Martin. I am afraid at the moment 3D printing is above my abilities, I am one of those who will not mind paying someone to produce items for me, but lack the technical understanding to use the software let alone the machines. I know someone who may be able to print the track base, I will have to have a chat with them 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted July 25, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 25, 2022 When I file up switch blades, I place the rail end on the end mark on the Templot template and then make a mark at the start of the planing with a Sharpie, I then file the front, remembering not to file the foot and then I turn the rail over and file the back. Don't expect your first few turnouts to be works of art, that takes practice. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 53 minutes ago, martin_wynne said: Hi John, It's difficult to give costs for the Plug Track, but it will be a lot less than that for material costs. Some ball-park figures for 4mm scale: 300 chairs, about £1 in materials. timbering base for a turnout, about 30p in materials. Plus rail. Hi Martin, Am I understanding this correctly, from your figures it would seem that the cost of the printed timber base for a B7 turnout would be less than £1.00 assuming approx. 100 chairs for a turnout. Is it really this cheap. I appreciate that the cost of the 2 printers would be a major investment but … wow, perhaps double wow! Best Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 25, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Ian_H said: Am I understanding this correctly, from your figures it would seem that the cost of the printed timber base for a B7 turnout would be less than £1.00 assuming approx. 100 chairs for a turnout. Is it really this cheap. Hi Ian, Yes, that's the cost of the materials, once you have the printers, or access to them. It's all very approximate, depending on how much resin you waste in the support structure for the chairs, and how thick you make the timbers. Those costs are based on what I have made so far. cheers, Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) See latest entry Edited July 25, 2022 by hayfield left link out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 C&L Update I spoke with Phil this morning, he is back from holiday and in his new property, his own and business items are still boxed up and the remaining items are being delivered from storage. The phone is now operational but he is still on temporary broadband as his provider has not fully connected the system up yet. He is hoping to start addressing orders and messages either tomorrow or Wednesday. His new business phone number is now on his website I will be going there sometime in the next 2 weeks, once the stock is in a condition where I can make a difference 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Ian_H said: Hi Martin, Am I understanding this correctly, from your figures it would seem that the cost of the printed timber base for a B7 turnout would be less than £1.00 assuming approx. 100 chairs for a turnout. Is it really this cheap. I appreciate that the cost of the 2 printers would be a major investment but … wow, perhaps double wow! Best Ian 1 hour ago, martin_wynne said: Hi Ian, Yes, that's the cost of the materials, once you have the printers, or access to them. It's all very approximate, depending on how much resin you waste in the support structure for the chairs, and how thick you make the timbers. Those costs are based on what I have made so far. cheers, Martin. The one thing I am not certain of is using 2 different materials, then if adjustments have to be made what glue/solvent/fillers are used Then the question must be asked when Wayne uses the same material for timbers and chairs, why do we need plug in chairs I think I should take more notice of what's being developed within Templot, but the trouble is when things get very technical I just do not understand what's happening 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 25, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, hayfield said: Then the question must be asked when Wayne uses the same material for timbers and chairs, why do we need plug in chairs Hi John, Its all in the name -- Plug Track. 🙂 Wayne's kits = slide the rails in from the end. Plug Track = fit the chairs on the rail, then plug it into the timber base from above. This is similar to building track with individual chairs, or on copper-clad, etc. It allows complex formations to be constructed without the next rail being obstructed by one already fitted. Wayne gets round this by having breaks in the rail, such as at the knuckle. Quote The one thing I am not certain of is using 2 different materials, then if adjustments have to be made what glue/solvent/fillers are used No adhesives needed, the chairs are designed to be a firm press fit in the bases, with a tapered lead-in. No gauges or adjustments needed, it is all set in Templot. The materials are based on what can be done at home by most modellers. The home resin printers have a build area too small to be very practical for timbering bases, at least in 4mm scale, and the resin is not tough enough or flexible enough. FDM printers have a larger build area, and the polymer material is tough and flexible, but they can't print the chairs in detail in the smaller scales. Wayne is using industrial grade 3D resin printers and his own special mix of resin. But the separate plug-in chairs can also be used with laser-cut plywood bases, or (my favourite) CNC-milled solid bases like this, which wouldn't be possible if the chairs were integral with the timbers: That's EM on 3mm MDF board. The ballast hides the mess. The CNC miller/router which I used there is actually cheaper than most FDM printers, so that would be a choice: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08K95J434/ although you need to add on the cost of some milling cutters, say around the £20 mark. It took less time to do than FDM printing (but was a lot noisier). If I can finally get the chairs finished for the turnouts, I will make some videos showing how to do all this stuff. cheers, Martin. Edited July 25, 2022 by martin_wynne typo 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, martin_wynne said: Hi John, Its all in the name -- Plug Track. 🙂 Wayne's kits = slide the rails in from the end. Plug Track = fit the chairs on the rail, then plug it into the timber base from above. This is similar to building track with individual chairs, or on copper-clad, etc. It allows complex formations to be constructed without the next rail being obstructed by one already fitted. Wayne gets round this by having breaks in the rail, such as at the knuckle. No adhesives needed, the chairs are designed to be a firm press fit in the bases, with a tapered lead-in. No gauges or adjustments needed, it is all set in Templot. The materials are based on what can be done at home by most modellers. The home resin printers have a build area too small to be very practical for timbering bases, at least in 4mm scale, and the resin is not tough enough or flexible enough. FDM printers have a larger build area, but can't print the chairs in detail in the small scales. Wayne is using industrial grade 3D resin printers and his own special mix of resin. But the separate plug-in chairs can also be used with laser-cut plywood bases, or (my favourite) CNC-milled solid bases like this, which wouldn't be possible if the chairs were integral with the timbers: That's 3mm MDF. The CNC miller/router which I used there is actually cheaper than most FDM printers, so that would be a choice: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08K95J434/ although you need to add on the cost of some milling cutters, say around the £20 mark. If I can finally get the chairs finished for the turnouts, I will make some videos showing how to do all this stuff. cheers, Martin. Thanks for the explanation, as it was claimed when I was at school I failed to listen (read in this case, Now milling out a 4 by 2 baseboard sheet would be a real eye opener. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus1 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 when I was at school i was told I'd never get a job if i sat looking out of thee window all day. I became a train driver, and drive buses! I got 2 jobs for my speciality of looking out of windows all day. 2 5 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted July 26, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 26, 2022 13 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said: When I file up switch blades, I place the rail end on the end mark on the Templot template and then make a mark at the start of the planing with a Sharpie, I then file the front, remembering not to file the foot and then I turn the rail over and file the back. Don't expect your first few turnouts to be works of art, that takes practice. I do the same. When I turn the rail over, I put the foot in a groove cut into the building board so that the rail sits flat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 26, 2022 Author Share Posted July 26, 2022 10 hours ago, roythebus1 said: when I was at school i was told I'd never get a job if i sat looking out of thee window all day. I became a train driver, and drive buses! I got 2 jobs for my speciality of looking out of windows all day. I went on a training course in Swindon many years ago, and upon my return the trainer wrote to my manager stating I have the ability to mentally not attend. My managers reply was, given John passed the course with 100% score, I suggest you look at your own training material and make it more interesting!!! We called trainers failed salesmen !! 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 26, 2022 Author Share Posted July 26, 2022 The next complex, a turnout into an outside Barry slip, timbers being cut At the same time I thought I better work out the electrics to enable me to plan the isolation cuts, plus it will act as a wiring diagram 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 27, 2022 Author Share Posted July 27, 2022 The PCB timbers have been cut and more importantly gapped for electrical isolation. Running very low on junior hacksaw blades as modern PCB strips/boards really blunt them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John40131 Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 On 25/07/2022 at 16:24, martin_wynne said: Hi John, Its all in the name -- Plug Track. 🙂 Wayne's kits = slide the rails in from the end. Plug Track = fit the chairs on the rail, then plug it into the timber base from above. This is similar to building track with individual chairs, or on copper-clad, etc. It allows complex formations to be constructed without the next rail being obstructed by one already fitted. Wayne gets round this by having breaks in the rail, such as at the knuckle. No adhesives needed, the chairs are designed to be a firm press fit in the bases, with a tapered lead-in. No gauges or adjustments needed, it is all set in Templot. The materials are based on what can be done at home by most modellers. The home resin printers have a build area too small to be very practical for timbering bases, at least in 4mm scale, and the resin is not tough enough or flexible enough. FDM printers have a larger build area, and the polymer material is tough and flexible, but they can't print the chairs in detail in the smaller scales. Wayne is using industrial grade 3D resin printers and his own special mix of resin. But the separate plug-in chairs can also be used with laser-cut plywood bases, or (my favourite) CNC-milled solid bases like this, which wouldn't be possible if the chairs were integral with the timbers: That's EM on 3mm MDF board. The ballast hides the mess. The CNC miller/router which I used there is actually cheaper than most FDM printers, so that would be a choice: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08K95J434/ although you need to add on the cost of some milling cutters, say around the £20 mark. It took less time to do than FDM printing (but was a lot noisier). If I can finally get the chairs finished for the turnouts, I will make some videos showing how to do all this stuff. cheers, Martin. I would love to be able to get hold of the chairs you showed in the picture ... I am a member of MERG and it was a member who directed me to this page ... I have just built a simple diamond crossing but I have a more complex 4 way crossing to construct with 10 Diamond crossing later in this year ... Regards John Marshall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, John40131 said: I would love to be able to get hold of the chairs you showed in the picture ... I am a member of MERG and it was a member who directed me to this page ... I have just built a simple diamond crossing but I have a more complex 4 way crossing to construct with 10 Diamond crossing later in this year ... Regards John Marshall John These plug in chairs are in an experimental form, and I think only standard chairs are available at the moment, also they plug in to either 3D printed or routed track bases I too would like to have a play with this system, but I have no idea how easy it is to use 3D printers using others programs (I am not into making my own designs As it happens I have a big birthday coming up in a few months, my wife asked me if I would like a cheap 3D printer, my fear is if I get one would I get any use from one ? Firstly out of interest who was it at MERG who pointed you to the thread? Secondly if you want to build the crossing in the short term the 4 way crossing sounds interesting, have you a plan ? what construction method do you use ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, John40131 said: I would love to be able to get hold of the chairs you showed in the picture ... I am a member of MERG and it was a member who directed me to this page ... I have just built a simple diamond crossing but I have a more complex 4 way crossing to construct with 10 Diamond crossing later in this year ... Regards John Marshall Hi John, Those are S1 chairs which you can print now from Templot files. See: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-3d-printed-cnc-milled-laser-cut.229/post-2030 If you don't have a resin printer you may have a friend who does, or you can send the files to a commercial 3D printing service. No CAD skills needed, the files are ready to print. Templot is free to use, the files are free. If you don't want the plug on them, it can be omitted in the Templot settings, but over to you on how you then use them. That topic is now 22 pages long, but in a constant state of flux as I develop the software: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-3d-printed-cnc-milled-laser-cut.229/ https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?forums/plug-track.34/ I am currently working on the chair designs for pointwork. So far done are REA chairs: S1, S1J, L1, P They can be for any gauge or scale, and the rail section fit can be adjusted or customized to whatever you want. The key driven amount is randomised, the chair screw head angles are randomised (only really visible in the larger scales). Also the P chair bolt heads. Just don't hold your breath. There is still a long way to go, and I can only do so much at a time. Templot is my hobby project, it's not full time work. It stops when the sun is shining.🙂 p.s. all rails are vertical in Templot plug track. As in Peco bullhead and Finetrax kits. Under no circumstances whatsoever am I prepared to consider canted rail. Over to someone else to enter that minefield. cheers, Martin. Edited July 28, 2022 by martin_wynne typo 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Also, bearing in mind that John has so far used flat bottom rail for his diamond it needs to be mentioned that chaired construction is for bullhead rail. I suggested he look here as he was considering use of a CNC router, more for the track bases than the chairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 minute ago, Grovenor said: Also, bearing in mind that John has so far used flat bottom rail for his diamond it needs to be mentioned that chaired construction is for bullhead rail. I suggested he look here as he was considering use of a CNC router, more for the track bases than the chairs. Hi Keith, That's odd -- he specifically asked about the chairs and didn't mention the CNC-milled base. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just go and bang my head against a brick wall instead of spending time writing stuff here. cheers, Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, Grovenor said: Also, bearing in mind that John has so far used flat bottom rail for his diamond it needs to be mentioned that chaired construction is for bullhead rail. I suggested he look here as he was considering use of a CNC router, more for the track bases than the chairs. 1 hour ago, John40131 said: I would love to be able to get hold of the chairs you showed in the picture ... I am a member of MERG and it was a member who directed me to this page ... I have just built a simple diamond crossing but I have a more complex 4 way crossing to construct with 10 Diamond crossing later in this year ... Regards John Marshall No mention of flatbottom rail in the posting !!!! I assume you have prior knowledge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, martin_wynne said: Hi Keith, That's odd -- he specifically asked about the chairs and didn't mention the CNC-milled base. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just go and bang my head against a brick wall instead of spending time writing stuff here. cheers, Martin. Simply shows how confusion arises when not all the information is available For me I (wrongly) assumed John was talking about building trackwork shows how wrong we all can get it Please don't bang your head too hard, we need your wisdom and abilities 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 I have been a bit preoccupied the past few days, so progress has been very slow. The vees have been formed and fitted, I think I will start with the stock rails next Have been considering making a chaired outside Barry slip, if I did T think the plan would need slightly altering to separate the central slip rails 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 30, 2022 Author Share Posted July 30, 2022 Stock rails were added which I think is the easiest job, then the wing rails for the Barry outside slip Next up I fitted the straight switch rails 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 The outside Barry slip just needs the tiebars fitting, all works fine which shows the time spent pre-planning the isolation gaps and gapping them before fitting any rails pays off in the long term The second part of the formation was quite straight forward, again needs the tiebar 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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