Simond Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Chaz I have certainly had locos trundling across incorrectly set points as a result of staying alive. (And incompetent driving...) The capacitance should not have any effect on the DCC booster, which, on detecting a short, should shut down anyway. I have had issues with my Lenz booster apparently not shutting down when it should, and when I finally get some baseboards up and some track down, will be checking everything rather carefully Sorry not to be able to give more info at this point (ouch) but will post on my thread eventually Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) Chaz I have certainly had locos trundling across incorrectly set points as a result of staying alive. (And incompetent driving...) The capacitance should not have any effect on the DCC booster, which, on detecting a short, should shut down anyway. I have had issues with my Lenz booster apparently not shutting down when it should, and when I finally get some baseboards up and some track down, will be checking everything rather carefully Sorry not to be able to give more info at this point (ouch) but will post on my thread eventually Best Simon Thanks for that Simon. I agree that the DCC should shut down as indeed it does when other locos cause a short - including two that have ESU decoders and their "Powerpack" stay alives. I am not particularly concerned about the Lenz system which seems pretty robust but more concerned about the health of the decoder (a Zimo I believe). I am wondering whether the generous amount of stored energy is confusing the system and preventing the protection working? You may recall that I installed relays on a couple of points to eliminate overlong wiring runs that were defeating the auto shutdown facility? This cured the problem - go to page 103 for the full story. The Fowler is now the only fly in the ointment. Frog juicers? I am reluctant to go down that route - which I have always considered an unnecessarily sophisticated solution. In any case would they respond? - the DCC doesn't! Chaz Edited April 20, 2016 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) My opinion of frog juicers is that they are an extremely heavy (and expensive) hammer to crack a very simple nut. Everyone that has them says they are wonderful, but I see them as entirely unnecessary in almost every case. A simple single-pole change over switch, or relay, is way cheaper, and just as reliable, except possibly outdoors. I've never tried this, but I believe (I'm pretty much certain) that if you charge up your Fowler's capacitors, and lift it off the track, you should not be able to measure a voltage across the wheels. I can't try it til the weekend, but if you can, and if I'm right, then it is not the loco causing the problem. Just need a multimeter on DCV say 20 volts range. The risk I think that you're running is that the loco sits with three wheels correctly supplied, ie, two on one side on one rail, and one on the other side on the other rail. The fourth wheel, in a short-circuit situation, must be on a rail of the same polarity as the first rail, not the second. Thus the short is between the pick-ups on the same side of the loco, and I bet the pick up itself, or the wires between them can be damaged if the booster does not shut down. The decoder should not see anything it can't cope with - it either sees the red & black wires as DCC voltage, or as the same voltage - ie a short. Assuming I'm right about there being no voltage supplied from the capacitors via the decoder to the wheels, then the short doesn't matter. In effect, the booster does not "know" whether the loco has capacitors or not, nor does it "know" how charged they are. It can only see a load. Could be one loco with discharged stay-alive, or three all going at full chat. And I conclude that the sparks must have come from the voltage supplied from the booster. HTH Simon Edited April 20, 2016 by Simond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 My opinion of frog juicers is that they are an extremely heavy (and expensive) hammer to crack a very simple nut. Everyone that has them says they are wonderful, but I see them as entirely unnecessary in almost every case. A simple single-pole change over switch, or relay, is way cheaper, and just as reliable, except possibly outdoors. I've never tried this, but I believe (I'm pretty much certain) that if you charge up your Fowler's capacitors, and lift it off the track, you should not be able to measure a voltage across the wheels. I can't try it til the weekend, but if you can, and if I'm right, then it is not the loco causing the problem. Just need a multimeter on DCV say 20 volts range. The risk I think that you're running is that the loco sits with three wheels correctly supplied, ie, two on one side on one rail, and one on the other side on the other rail. The fourth wheel, in a short-circuit situation, must be on a rail of the same polarity as the first rail, not the second. Thus the short is between the pick-ups on the same side of the loco, and I bet the pick up itself, or the wires between them can be damaged if the booster does not shut down. The decoder should not see anything it can't cope with - it either sees the red & black wires as DCC voltage, or as the same voltage - ie a short. Assuming I'm right about there being no voltage supplied from the capacitors via the decoder to the wheels, then the short doesn't matter. In effect, the booster does not "know" whether the loco has capacitors or not, nor does it "know" how charged they are. It can only see a load. Could be one loco with discharged stay-alive, or three all going at full chat. And I conclude that the sparks must have come from the voltage supplied from the booster. HTH Simon It's enough to make one revert to DC. My next layout will probably be DC to start with because most of the locos earmarked for it have not been fitted with DCC apparatus and I'm not in the mood to spend £500 to £600 just now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Errrrrrrr . . . What the hell is a "frog-juicer"? (You can see how far out of touch I am). Just give me a link to a simple explanation, folks. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted April 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 20, 2016 Errrrrrrr . . . What the hell is a "frog-juicer"? (You can see how far out of touch I am). Just give me a link to a simple explanation, folks. John Here you go: http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-accessories/circuit-protection-and-power-management/hfj003u-hex-frog-juicer-universal.aspx And here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67546-what-are-hex-frog-juicers/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I imagine one of these would also do as a frog juicer.... http://www.blendtec.com Do look at the YouTube videos. Splendid, if entirely mad! Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Thank you, chaps. Now I understand. I just wish people were not still calling crossings "frogs". Ask a perway man what a frog is and he would correctly tell you that it was a green amphibian. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 My opinion of frog juicers is that they are an extremely heavy (and expensive) hammer to crack a very simple nut. Everyone that has them says they are wonderful, but I see them as entirely unnecessary in almost every case. A simple single-pole change over switch, or relay, is way cheaper, and just as reliable, except possibly outdoors. I've never tried this, but I believe (I'm pretty much certain) that if you charge up your Fowler's capacitors, and lift it off the track, you should not be able to measure a voltage across the wheels. I can't try it til the weekend, but if you can, and if I'm right, then it is not the loco causing the problem. Just need a multimeter on DCV say 20 volts range. The risk I think that you're running is that the loco sits with three wheels correctly supplied, ie, two on one side on one rail, and one on the other side on the other rail. The fourth wheel, in a short-circuit situation, must be on a rail of the same polarity as the first rail, not the second. Thus the short is between the pick-ups on the same side of the loco, and I bet the pick up itself, or the wires between them can be damaged if the booster does not shut down. The decoder should not see anything it can't cope with - it either sees the red & black wires as DCC voltage, or as the same voltage - ie a short. Assuming I'm right about there being no voltage supplied from the capacitors via the decoder to the wheels, then the short doesn't matter. In effect, the booster does not "know" whether the loco has capacitors or not, nor does it "know" how charged they are. It can only see a load. Could be one loco with discharged stay-alive, or three all going at full chat. And I conclude that the sparks must have come from the voltage supplied from the booster. HTH Simon I entirely agree with your comments about frog juicers. I understand your other comments and largely agree with them. I would certainly worry about loco pickups and the wiring linking them - a quick look at page 103 of this topic will show you how the pickups on one side of my N7 were destroyed. BUT all the other locos I have will trip the booster's short circuit protection if they run onto the crossing of any adversely set point. For my money this points the finger of suspicion firmly at the Fowler diesel. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 It's enough to make one revert to DC. My next layout will probably be DC to start with because most of the locos earmarked for it have not been fitted with DCC apparatus and I'm not in the mood to spend £500 to £600 just now. A Roco Multimaus DCC system, bought from a dealer in Germany will cost you less than £100, and works very well. Of course you will need to add decoders but if you can live without sound.... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 Thank you, chaps. Now I understand. I just wish people were not still calling crossings "frogs". Ask a perway man what a frog is and he would correctly tell you that it was a green amphibian. John I completely agree John. I have always thought that the adoption of the term "frog" (an American usage, I believe) was to avoid any confusion with diamond crossings (which of course require two common crossings and two "K" crossings!). Still we are stuck with it and it's probably too late for us. We just have to wince and bare it! Train station? YUK! Steam train? NO! Steam locomotive! Engine? No - locomotive! How long have you got? Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 Errrrrrrr . . . What the hell is a "frog-juicer"? (You can see how far out of touch I am). Just give me a link to a simple explanation, folks. John Best not to know. Waste of money in my opinion. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 Fed up with Slater's axle-nut allen keys rounding off? I have probably thrown away at least half a dozen. This is a better proposition... I bought mine from Phil' of Hobby Holidays at the Corsham show. Cost just short of £5. I haven't used it yet but I did check the fit in a wheel fixing nut - fits very snugly and seems rather harder than the Slater's product so should last longer. Chaz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fettster42 Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I use an NCC powercab. Its basic, but works well and can expand it with boosters as required. Comes to about £120 IIRC. Chas, on my dads layout we had an issue with the settings of trip level, where it was not tripping slowly enough for the powercab to not restart before the short had been corrected. Could it be a setting in there that is not tripping in the right time/right current etc... and its just the fowler that is causing that? Just a thought? Leigh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DLT Posted April 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 20, 2016 Best not to know. Waste of money in my opinion. Chaz During my brief foray into DCC I looked at the question of Frog Juicers, and came to the same conclusion. As an earlier poster remarked; Sledgehammer to Crack a Nut. They replace any mechanical switching of the crossing polarity. You have to have some means of changing points, and most electrical switching has some form of polarity reversal built in. My points are mostly mechanically operated and the addition of a microswitch does the job. The Frog Juicers worked out at about £10 per point, microswitches about £1.50 max. Or in my case £0.00 as I already had some! Cheers, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 I use an NCC powercab. Its basic, but works well and can expand it with boosters as required. Comes to about £120 IIRC. Chas, on my dads layout we had an issue with the settings of trip level, where it was not tripping slowly enough for the powercab to not restart before the short had been corrected. Could it be a setting in there that is not tripping in the right time/right current etc... and its just the fowler that is causing that? Just a thought? Leigh You could be right but I have no idea what to do about it. I could always boot the Fowler into touch..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted April 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 20, 2016 PS, I should have said that, although I know what a frog juicer is, I have no intention of using them. I do worry about the trend for electronic gizmos to solve 'problems' on layouts, particularly exhibition layouts. Custom gizmo goes pop and what do you do? Can you fix it? Will anyone stock a replacement at the show? Will said gizmo still be made? As with so many products, we're being led down the non-user serviceable path and disposable items. Just a way of selling you the next new and exciting gizmo. I think there's a lot to be said for understanding how something works and bring able to fix it (or bodge a temporary mend) when required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted April 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 20, 2016 You could be right but I have no idea what to do about it. I could always boot the Fowler into touch..... I'll offer to look after it for you Chaz. No charge. Don't thank me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 I'll offer to look after it for you Chaz. No charge. Don't thank me... How kind. I am quite overcome (wipes tear from eye and sniffs). Would you be nice to it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 PS, I should have said that, although I know what a frog juicer is, I have no intention of using them. I do worry about the trend for electronic gizmos to solve 'problems' on layouts, particularly exhibition layouts. Custom gizmo goes pop and what do you do? Can you fix it? Will anyone stock a replacement at the show? Will said gizmo still be made? As with so many products, we're being led down the non-user serviceable path and disposable items. Just a way of selling you the next new and exciting gizmo. I think there's a lot to be said for understanding how something works and bring able to fix it (or bodge a temporary mend) when required. Of course you could say this about the whole DCC system! However I will say that over the ten or more years that I have had it the Lenz system has proved totally reliable - the only weakness being the handsets that only last about ten years (the matrix type buttons die). Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Thank you, chaps. Now I understand. I just wish people were not still calling crossings "frogs". Ask a perway man what a frog is and he would correctly tell you that it was a green amphibian. John The term "frog" is perfectly acceptable to manufacturers of permanent way. From Section A of the Robert Hudson catalogue 57. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted April 21, 2016 Author Share Posted April 21, 2016 The term "frog" is perfectly acceptable to manufacturers of permanent way. From Section A of the Robert Hudson catalogue 57. Point taken! I do note that the above talks about a set of switches and a crossing. It seems to suggest that "frog" is a synonym for "crossing". It's a fair cop, but can I carry on calling them crossings, please? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr2 Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Point taken! I saw what you did there....!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 ... can I carry on calling them crossings, please? Just so, yes, positively. Maybe even to the point of tedium! For those who refer to a common crossing as a "frog"... what alternative description is used for the K-crossing of a diamond / slip? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Just so, yes, positively. Maybe even to the point of tedium! For those who refer to a common crossing as a "frog"... what alternative description is used for the K-crossing of a diamond / slip? Newt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now