Building a 'Princess Royal' pacific in 4mm

[Horsetan]

Yes. Or at least, that's how my two sets are.

 

Did you also see how much bigger the cabside windows are compared to ProScale's rendering?

Edited November 4, 2013 by Horsetan

[ozzyo]

I am thinking of getting a set of the mike edge etches but I am unsure, do you get alternative front frames for after 1952 with mike's etch set? 

 

Hello Farren, all,

 

with out me digging my books on the Princess Royals out, what was the difference in the front frames after 1952?

 

TIA

 

OzzyO.

[philbax]

Hi

Prior to 1952 the front frames had two diamond shaped holes abpve the bogie to allow accomodate the flanges of the inside cylinder bye-pass valves which were never fitted.

The Micheal Edge etch has these as a half etch on the frames which can be left as is for post 1952 and opened out for the original frames

 

Philbax

[Horsetan]

Hello Phil!

 

David at Ultrascale tells me we are the only two to have purchased "Princess" driving wheels this year! You must have ordered at the same time as me........

 

I've only just realised that the wheels will need reinforcement webs adjacent to the crankpins for 46201 

Edited November 6, 2013 by Horsetan

[Michael Edge]

The Princess etch revision is underway at the moment - if anyone has any more comments/requests please let me know asap.

Mike

[Horsetan]

The Princess etch revision is underway at the moment - if anyone has any more comments/requests please let me know asap.

Maybe extra spares of the expansion link / die-block, so that people can build it with the proper box section and trunnions instead of one flat layer?

 

And, yes, I know you told me at Scaleforum that you had no intention of producing castings so, errm, how about resin mouldings?

Edited November 6, 2013 by Horsetan

[farren]

Hi ozzyo the front of main frames were cut off from the centre line of front driving wheels and new ones where fitted. Minus the diamond cuts this was done due to the cylinders working lose even after major overalls. Two separate casting where used instead of a combined stretcher to try to over come the cylinder problem. All locomotives are thought to have been treated this but 46212 is uncertain no photos.

[farren]

As I don't know what your upgrades to ecthes are and knowing you are not after doing the boiler how about two half formers to help us mere mortals out with getting the front and back of the fire box the right shape

[ozzyo]

Hi ozzyo the front of main frames were cut off from the centre line of front driving wheels and new ones where fitted. Minus the diamond cuts this was done due to the cylinders working lose even after major overalls. Two separate casting where used instead of a combined stretcher to try to over come the cylinder problem. All locomotives are thought to have been treated this but 46212 is uncertain no photos.

Thanks for the reply farren, but it does seem to have a bit of a problem. The inside cylinders were always a pair at the front of the frames. The outside cylinders would have to be separate castings fastened to the frames in all cases.

Without getting my books out, what may have happened is that the front extension frames instead of being bolted to the main frames using a lap joint were welded to them. This would make most of the frames one piece, not including the rear extensions over the rear pony that were riveted to each other.

 

OzzyO. 

[farren]

I think but will look latter the cylinders working lose  was a by product of the boiler pushing down on the frames and the weight pushing the frames apart at the top outwards. this is why they went for the two casting instead of one. the frame was lap jointed welded and riveted and it was very time consuming about 6-8 mouths each loco. 

Edited November 7, 2013 by farren

[ozzyo]

I think but will look latter the cylinders working lose  was a by product of the boiler pushing down on the frames and the weight pushing the frames apart at the top outwards. this is why they went for the two casting instead of one. the frame was lap jointed welded and riveted and it was very time consuming about 6-8 mouths each loco. 

 

Hello Farren.

 

lets start at the beginning, the locos were introduced in the 1930s the heyday of steam. I'm sure that the designer Arthur (later Sir Bill), may have thought about the 34 or 35 ton boiler pushing down on the frames at the front end and put in a saddle in to support it, that would have been used to stop the frames spreading as well. A boiler was only supported on three points two at the rear and one at the front.  The front was the main fixing point as this is where the inlet and exhaust from the cylinders go. The back end of the boiler is allowed to move to allow for expansion. but it's still fixed down. One other thing to remember is that the frames are approx. 1 1/4" thick so that takes a bit of bending. See photo below.

 

The two outer cylinders were fastened to the outside of the frames to allow for all of the inside valve gear, to fit between them. The inside cylinders were fitted at the front end of the loco for a couple of reasons, one was to help with the weight distribution and the other was so that all of the driving force was not on one axle.

 

No railway company could afford to have any loco out of action for 6-8 months at a time least of all when it's one of your top class locos. you have also forgotten that about this time the ex. L.M.S. were lending the ex. G.W.R. two or three Pacific's (Princesses) to cover for the problems with the King bogies.

 

 

Any of the frame work that you have described would have been done at a heavy general or heavy intermediate overall, lasting no more than six - eight weeks.   

 

This loco was back in traffic in about 16 weeks (I will have to check for the dates, just to make sure).

 

OzzyO. 

 

Edit for PS. the locos were built in less time than you say for a modification.

Edited November 7, 2013 by ozzyo

[Michael Edge]

I can put another layer in for the expansion link, 6200/1 type is already a box link arrangement.

The back of the firebox is already on the etch, with register holes to the cab front, I can add the shape of the front end of the firebox as well.

[Horsetan]

I can put another layer in for the expansion link, 6200/1 type is already a box link arrangement......

I had another look and belatedly realised you had already done this! Oops. I've done a scan of it and have labelled each of the parts that I recognise, as that makes a bit more sense.

 

I can't find the union links on the etch, for some odd reason. Are they there, or do we resort to using Comet ones?,

[philbax]

Hi Micheal - wish list

For me and I think for a few others we would like to see the bits that we cannot get elsewhere - castings:-

Chimney (yes I know there are two versions)

Smokebox front

The lumps on the firebox

Dome

Rear trailing spring and axle box

backhead

castings above the bogie (could be built from an etch)

 

 

etches

The box cover over the expansion link

extending the front 'piano'cover further back under the smokebox

the other set of reversing rods (can't remember which set is on the etch which I don't have to hand at the moment)

Doors under the firebox above the rear frames

 

 

Also a drawing of the first (shorter) firebox and boiler (Longer)

When I find a way to upload a photo I will. so far have a running chassis and building the 6205 valve gear atm.

 

One interesting fact that I have discovered is that most published accounts say that the reversing gear was modified on 6205 at the same time as the valve gear.

published photos (wild Swan books) show the new valve gear with the existing reversing gear ('splasher' like form over the link to the reversing arm)  but later photo's show this was changed and a straigher reversing rod fitted and the 'splasher' removed. any idea when this took place. I am building mine circa 1947

 

philbax

 

Philbax

[Horsetan]

Hi Micheal - wish list

For me and I think for a few others we would like to see the bits that we cannot get elsewhere - castings:-

Chimney (yes I know there are two versions)

Smokebox front

The lumps on the firebox

Dome

Rear trailing spring and axle box

backhead

castings above the bogie (could be built from an etch)

Phil: trailing spring / axlebox, plus part of the bogie transverse castings, are already available from Comet, so that's what I've used.

 

I think you mean a smokebox door, though, as the front ring is already on the etch. I picked up a Stanier door from 247 Developments.

 

The rest of the above list, I fully support. You've still got to convince Mike of the wisdom of doing them, though - he told me point-blank that he had no intention of producing them!

 

 

etches

The box cover over the expansion link

extending the front 'piano'cover further back under the smokebox

the other set of reversing rods (can't remember which set is on the etch which I don't have to hand at the moment)

Doors under the firebox above the rear frames

Smokebox door straps/hinge - I thought they were already on the etch?

 

Did he already include lamp irons on the etch? - I haven't got mine in front of me either.....

[Timara]

Smokebox door straps/hinge - I thought they were already on the etch?

 

Did he already include lamp irons on the etch? - I haven't got mine in front of me either.....

 

 

Have just looked at my etch.  Neither of those are on it as the straps are part of the smokebox door (they are on mine anyway!).

 

Finally finding time to get cracking with 46200, especially after seeing Phil's in the flesh at Scaleforum.  Is there any news on whether Markits have any intention whatsoever of doing the correct wheels yet?  I woud use Gibson/Ultrascale, but the ability to remove the wheels (let alone an easier install behind the slidebars!) is desirable.

[Horsetan]

The only correct wheels on the market are Ultrascale, and if you want to portray the set that were originally fitted to 6200/6201 then you have to add your own crank reinforcing webs. I think those wheels migrated to other Princesses eventually, as the preserved 6201 no longer has webbed driving wheels, and I don't think 46203 has them either.

 

Apparently Phil and I are the only ones to have bought Princess wheels from Ultrascale so far this year, so demand for them is not exactly heavy. Six month wait passes quicker than you think, though.

[artisan100]

Tim,

 

>"Is there any news on whether Markits have any intention whatsoever of doing the correct wheels yet?"

 

On my last Markits invoice, dated 1/11/13, there is a list of new wheels as a footnote, and amongst them is "26mm LM Princess".

 

Might we worth a call to Mark?

 

Geoff

[Timara]

Tim,

 

>"Is there any news on whether Markits have any intention whatsoever of doing the correct wheels yet?"

 

On my last Markits invoice, dated 1/11/13, there is a list of new wheels as a footnote, and amongst them is "26mm LM Princess".

 

Might we worth a call to Mark?

 

Geoff

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Thanks for the heads-up on that!  I think I'll do just that....    Anything to get my chassis rolling, finally...

 

Cheers,

[Michael Edge]

This is getting to be quite a list biut very welcome,

Horsetan - union links are near the radius rods

Philbax - I'll look at these points, I'm still not thinking of doing any mouldings but I might see what I get with the one I am building at the moment.

etches

The box cover over the expansion link

extending the front 'piano'cover further back under the smokebox

the other set of reversing rods (can't remember which set is on the etch which I don't have to hand at the moment)

Doors under the firebox above the rear frames

For lamp brackets our kits usually include a strip of half etched material to bend them out of - quite simple really, we put a diagram on to show how it's done. All the etched lamp bravkets in other kits with bend lines etched on are completely useless - they always break off.

The nearest wheel match I can find (other than waiting for Ultrascale) are Gibson 4878S. I'll post some photos of my next one later.

[Horsetan]

....on the etch which I don't have to hand at the moment.....

I've found my photo of the etch as it came:

[farren]

Sorry ozzyo I'll answer you later when I get back on the main pc what I will say is I got the times mix up. The 6 month was cyclinnders working ose after overalls it was 100hours to do the job twice as long as a normal major overalls.

 

What's up with the new markets princess royal wheel set which looks fine on my princes

Edited November 7, 2013 by farren

[farren]

Hello Farren.

 

lets start at the beginning, the locos were introduced in the 1930s the heyday of steam. I'm sure that the designer Arthur (later Sir Bill), may have thought about the 34 or 35 ton boiler pushing down on the frames at the front end and put in a saddle in to support it, that would have been used to stop the frames spreading as well. A boiler was only supported on three points two at the rear and one at the front.  The front was the main fixing point as this is where the inlet and exhaust from the cylinders go. The back end of the boiler is allowed to move to allow for expansion. but it's still fixed down. One other thing to remember is that the frames are approx. 1 1/4" thick so that takes a bit of bending. See photo below.

 

The two outer cylinders were fastened to the outside of the frames to allow for all of the inside valve gear, to fit between them. The inside cylinders were fitted at the front end of the loco for a couple of reasons, one was to help with the weight distribution and the other was so that all of the driving force was not on one axle.

 

No railway company could afford to have any loco out of action for 6-8 months at a time least of all when it's one of your top class locos. you have also forgotten that about this time the ex. L.M.S. were lending the ex. G.W.R. two or three Pacific's (Princesses) to cover for the problems with the King bogies.

 

46202 1952.jpg

 

Any of the frame work that you have described would have been done at a heavy general or heavy intermediate overall, lasting no more than six - eight weeks.   

 

This loco was back in traffic in about 16 weeks (I will have to check for the dates, just to make sure).

46242 1952.jpg

 

OzzyO. 

 

Edit for PS. the locos were built in less time than you say for a modification.

that's princess ann from smoke box and steam pipes. And she nether ran again

[jwealleans]

I think Ozzy is referring to City of Glasgow, which did run again.

[philbax]

Steam pipes Michael they would be really useful, they look a b*****r to make.