Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 I firmly believe that regardless of the Heljan models presence there is still room for a good solid 86 in the market whether it be Hornby or somebody else - afterall we've got 3 x 37s and 3 x 47s to choose from with Heljan, Bachmann and ViT. I dont envisage Heljan forking out on correcting their own model any time soon.......if only Hornby would redesign their 86 platform that could then be rolled out to Classes 87 and 90. That particular trio of electrics would make real sense to keep together on a common chassis given the similarities in the same way as Bachmann probably will with an 81 being spawned from the work done for the Class 85. A lot of errors were spotted with the Heljan 86. I can live with slight difference with the body itself but Heljan did'nt even get the 3 white stripes on the Virgin version correct??? I think if Hornby had like a slightly different shell with flush glazing, wire handrails and proper panto (*a better light cluster as well) then it would be better than Heljan's effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Dont forget (like the 87) that the horby 86 bogies are underscale. The 'to do' list you have listed is about right but more importantly really should be considered basic detailing work for a modeller, nothing to stop you doing it, you might even enjoy it. Hornby before and after Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hornby can make just a few minor tweaks to the following locos:- Class 59 - addition of lights (atleast headlights like the Class 92). Class 86 - addition of lights, wire handrails and scale pantograph. Class 87 - addition of lights, wire handrails and if I'm not mistaken scale bogies. Class 90 - addition of lights, proper valance, and scale pantograph. I suppose so if that was the only way to get improved versions, but it would be preferable in my view to produce new more detailed and accurate models from scratch and confine these old Lima versions to the Railroad range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I am aware of the costs and hence my suggestions were minor modifications like lights etc. Pantographs are already available because Hornby use them on the 87 and Pendolino and infact the 92. Wire handrails would be an easy mod even if the customers were to fix them (like ViTrains models) I would'nt mind? I guess the only slightly major mods that I suggested were the 90's valance and the 87's bogies. But what we think of as minor could become quite invovled - the lights will require more than one tool be modified as well as other work so may not be considered worthwhile. Wire handrails have been done on other older models as an upgrade so they don't pose a problem. At this stage it'll come down to how many more they would sell with the changes. Those who are bothered by the lack of kit will probably be the ones inclinded to upgrade things themselves or even pay others to do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 At this stage it'll come down to how many more they would sell with the changes. This is the crystal ball nirvana though. I dont see how such things can be "measured" beforehand - you either make the changes and suffer poor sales if youve got the model wrong or release a corking model and its happy days for everyone. Take the range of Bachmann diesels as examples. When they started out they were just as basic as the past/current class 90 (dcc ready/delete as per date of release) yet Bachmann have over recent years had the confidence that new updated versions would sell enough to warrant changes in tooling. I dont see that the 90 or any of the other older Hornby/Lima models (86/87) for that matter is really any different. The only caveat I would add is that if a new model was flawed as with the Heljan 86 this would impact on sales but thats more incentive for them to try and get it right first time to ensure that it is worthwhile. Its more a question of confidence in your market and biting the bullet. If this isnt the same attitude inside Hornby then I hope to see on of the other manufacturers step up to the plate and make a truly sublime Class 90 that matches the detail and quality we now come to expect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Dont forget (like the 87) that the horby 86 bogies are underscale. The 'to do' list you have listed is about right but more importantly really should be considered basic detailing work for a modeller, nothing to stop you doing it, you might even enjoy it. Hornby before and after Cheers Jim What pantograph did you use for the detailed version? And where did you get the underframe bit from? I infact would love to do a detailing project, I did a couple of MK 1 sleepers (added wire handrails and interiors) but my main problem is painting. Firstly I have to hunt for the cheapest and best airbrush+compressor which would be 100 quid. The real issue is P&P prices for world wide delivery. In India things don't come cheap...(the only reason why I envy the rest of my family living in the UK) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This is the crystal ball nirvana though. That's how business works the world over. Those with good business sense will understand the market and be able to predict what will sell and what won't and invest accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I suppose so if that was the only way to get improved versions, but it would be preferable in my view to produce new more detailed and accurate models from scratch and confine these old Lima versions to the Railroad range. Surely there are enough "mint & boxed" models available through secondhand sources at bargain prices to make releases of models cascaded into the Railroad range appear to be a complete waste of material and manufacturing capacity....? For example, I currently have a nice mint model of 90039 in RfD on eBay for less than a tenner, although it's probably trying to tell me something after failing to sell on it's first attempt or on a club sales stand at a show. If it doesn't sell, I'm going to have to let our 3yr old play with it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What pantograph did you use for the detailed version? And where did you get the underframe bit from? I infact would love to do a detailing project, I did a couple of MK 1 sleepers (added wire handrails and interiors) but my main problem is painting. Firstly I have to hunt for the cheapest and best airbrush+compressor which would be 100 quid. The real issue is P&P prices for world wide delivery. In India things don't come cheap...(the only reason why I envy the rest of my family living in the UK) Hi - The pantograph for Jims 86 is a "reused" Sommerfeldt one, the Lima one as supplied with thier 87 can also be used but needs bit more work.. the underframe on mine [Class 86], and probably Jims model too, has been detailed using existing mouldings and styrene sheet and strip etc, as there are no kits availiable NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi Nick Perhaps 'enlarged' is better than reused? More here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2486-modelling-birmingham-new-street/page__st__1325#entry719316 I did start a topic on clas 86 and 87 detailing on the old RMweb - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=1935&hilit=+warship HTH Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Anyone with ideas for getting a Brecknell-Willis HS pantograph? Hurst hasn't had them in stock for months and I simply can't find a spare Hornby Pendolino, Cl. 87 or Cl.92 pantograph??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Its probably easier to scratchbuild one than build the hurst kit if I am honest. However despite that stunning anti sales pitch I have some unbuilt hurst ones if you are interested. Drop me a pm if you want one. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 16, 2012 Surely there are enough "mint & boxed" models available through secondhand sources at bargain prices to make releases of models cascaded into the Railroad range appear to be a complete waste of material and manufacturing capacity....? For example, I currently have a nice mint model of 90039 in RfD on eBay for less than a tenner, although it's probably trying to tell me something after failing to sell on it's first attempt or on a club sales stand at a show. If it doesn't sell, I'm going to have to let our 3yr old play with it... You may well be right, but the point I was trying to make was that most if not all of the ex-Lima models should have been confined to the Railroad range from the outset and only be produced that way if at all. The fact that Hornby has turned out 90s (and others) as "normal" Hornby releases suggests that new toolings of ex-Lima models will be the exception rather than the rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 That's how business works the world over. Those with good business sense will understand the market and be able to predict what will sell and what won't and invest accordingly. On that basis lets hope those business brains behind the 2012 products lines have their trousers pulled down and their bottoms smacked then told to go stand on the naughty step Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 You may well be right, but the point I was trying to make was that most if not all of the ex-Lima models should have been confined to the Railroad range from the outset and only be produced that way if at all. The fact that Hornby has turned out 90s (and others) as "normal" Hornby releases suggests that new toolings of ex-Lima models will be the exception rather than the rule. The 90 wasn't a Lima model, it was Hornby from the start. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 have their trousers pulled down and their bottoms smacked I believe that's a whole other industry... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2012 The 90 wasn't a Lima model, it was Hornby from the start. Andi Oh yes - sorry about that. But I think the point still stands - whether Hornby or Lima, these older models are not up to current standards and should now en bloc be designated Railroad and priced accordingly, or better still replaced with wholly new tooling. The fact that they are not (yet at least) suggests that new versions are not currently planned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Oh yes - sorry about that. But I think the point still stands - whether Hornby or Lima, these older models are not up to current standards and should now en bloc be designated Railroad and priced accordingly, or better still replaced with wholly new tooling. The fact that they are not (yet at least) suggests that new versions are not currently planned. I'm not 100% sure you can apply that as a criteria. Hornby have a rolling programme of replacing ringfield motors in existing products (I don't think a single current item in the main range is so equipped now) and that's where the category that the warmed over 90 fell into. But Hornby has quickly come to a retooled 67 after the work that was done to the ex-Lima one which in many regards was a model less needing of a complete make over. The electrics of course have issues all of their own with regards to commerical viability. What makes a model migrate into the Railroad Range isn't just that it is old tooling, but if it's viable to sell such an item with simplified finish as against charging a premium for it in the main range. Having a competing model from another manufacturer isn't necessarily a criteria either. The ex-Lima 66 sits in the main range as does the 20 but the 42, 40, 33 and 31 are Railroad. I don't think we'll see the ex-Lima 67 in the Railroad range now as it has too many fiddly parts (in a construction sense) but we might now see the 73 go there when the Dapol one comes out. My gut tells me that the 101 will stay in main range as it's a DMU. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Depends on how one defines commercial viability. Do you look at the products return over 3 years or 5 years? what about 10 years? 15 even? The Lima 87 and Hornby 86 have been "commercially viable" for around 30+ years - surely thats proof enough that new versions can be viable for the next 30 or is the electric "stigma" stronger now than in the good old days???? I would actually prefer Bachmann to do the honours with these models as they have proven with the 85 how much attention to detail they can show rather than run the risk of having more awful attempts (heljans 86) from Hornby which would can further retools of these particular classes for a generation most probably! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multiple identity account 2 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'd still prefer if Hornby does the re-tooled 86, 87 and 90. In my opinion Hornby do just as good a job with detail as Bachman - take the 08/09, 60 and the 50 and even the HST. They all have an excellent amount of detail. It would be a shame if Hornby lost the 86 and 90 to another manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Depends on how one defines commercial viability. Do you look at the products return over 3 years or 5 years? what about 10 years? 15 even? The Lima 87 and Hornby 86 have been "commercially viable" for around 30+ years - surely thats proof enough that new versions can be viable for the next 30 or is the electric "stigma" stronger now than in the good old days???? Not necessarily - those toolings don't exactly owe Hornby much, and hence they can keep punting those out quite viably on relatively low volumes to satisfy demand. Is there enough demand to warrant retooling? Dunno, I'd hope there would be though. Hopefully the 85 has given Bachmann sufficent confidence to have a bash at another electric. I would actually prefer Bachmann to do the honours with these models as they have proven with the 85 how much attention to detail they can show rather than run the risk of having more awful attempts (heljans 86) from Hornby which would can further retools of these particular classes for a generation most probably! On current record, Bachmann could make a good hand of it, Heljan just screwed up and probably feel burnt by it all, and I don't think Hornby have the appetite - with Dapol hanging around as a dark horse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Not sure about Dapol but I am thankful of their "lurking" - more chance that someone will fold first and give one a stab but I think the catalyst for giving others the confidence to take a gamble on an electric will come after the Bachmann Class 81 but maybe theyve already spotted the possibilities of using their existing Warship chassis for 86/87 and 90? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The warship chassis is 10ft 6 wb and too long over the bogie centers (i only used them in the absence of anything else at the time. If you read my thread I go into the shortening process The mechanical bits from the 85 are much better Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The warship chassis is 10ft 6 wb and too long over the bogie centers (i only used them in the absence of anything else at the time. I did wonder. Be good to see Bachmann steadily work their way through the ACs giving them even more clout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hi - it is a shame that the 87 hasnt been retooled, sure its of a limited operating scope, but then again the West Coast Mainline is quite a long line to model so it would be good for that, 87002 in its latest incarnation can be good for charters for more modern day layouts and I think now because of the prototypes not being so commonpalce now, popularity has increased a bit NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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