Pre-Grouping Brake Vans

[SRman]

With Bachmann's gorgeous SECR 'C' class 0-6-0 on the way I included a throw-away line in the thread about that locomotive suggesting that I would have to purchase a few PO wagons to go with it. Such PO wagons were often regarded as 'common user', in spite of any company branding.

 

Of course, this model would also require a pre-gouping brake van to match. I have in build a Cambrian Kits SECR 'Dance Hall' brake van which was to be in BR grey but I will have to do a little research and put it into SECR livery.

 

So far, so good! Now we get to my question: in pre-grouping days, if a freight train was made up with the company's locomotive and brake van, with a destination on another company's metals, would the brake van remain on the train, or would it have been swapped for one of the next company's vans?

 

As a theoretical example of what I mean, a train is made up in Brighton with an LBSC locomotive and brake van, with a destination of Manchester. The locomotive would almost certainly not work through to Manchester but would the brake van also be swapped at some point or would it remain on the train for the entire journey?

[jwealleans]

Wasn't there a thread on exactly this just recently?

[Peter Bedding]

Oooh, that's an interesting new question. I am trying to rack my grey cells as to who would know.

 

PB

[jwealleans]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57891-brake-vans/page__fromsearch__1

[SRman]

Wasn't there a thread on exactly this just recently?

 

Not one that I could find that answered my question. There have certainly been threads on pre-grouping wagons and the SECR/SR style PMV/CCT vans. If I have missed something then I apologise.

[SRman]

http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1

 

Thanks for that - I think it partially answers my question but seems to deal with pre-nationalisation (Big Four) rather than pre-grouping ... which also accounts for my not finding it since I didn't think laterally and type in "pre-nationalisation"!

[burgundy]

My impression from looking at Working Time Tables, is that trains on the LB&SCR would have been worked to designated boundary points and handed over there to other companies. The Brighton would not have had a train destined for Manchester; it would have been destined for Lilley Bridge (on the West London Line), New Cross or Battersea Yard. At New Cross or Battersea, it would have been broken up and remarshalled for wagons to be tripped to one of the main London yards of another company. From Lilley Bridge, which I think mainly handled coal traffic, wagons would have been handed over en bloc. Either way, the Brighton loco would come off and I infer that it would take the brake van with it.

World War 1 brought about some changes to this practice, but mainly in the form of designating transfer points that were outside the immediate London area.

As an aside, you refer to PO wagons being regarded as common user, but I don't believe that this was the case until WW2. They remained Private Owner and therefore likely to remain on reasonably clearly defined duties (railway company wagons, on the other hand, did in many cases become common user). If you want a mix of wagons to go with your C class and dance hall brake van, the recipe should include some SE&CR types and a scattering of other companies (with a heavy preponderance of opens rather than vans. The PO wagons should include Kentish local coal merchants, London coal factors and colliery owned wagons which might have had trade in Kent.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric

[jwealleans]

I'd suspect the only difference the grouping made was that there weren't as many company boundaries and exchange points.

[Buckjumper]

The same as Jonathan's answer on the other thread. The key is to ascertain which companies has running rights over your line, and which foreign lines your railway had running rights over, and that will be the limit for both locos and brake vans.

 

For example, The GER could send a GE loco and brake van over the East London Railway (it was a co-lessee) to the LBSC, over which running rights for goods trains were granted as far as the exchange sidings at New Cross.

 

Similarly, the North London Railway was entitled running rights over the GER lines towards Fenchurch Street for goods trains as far as the LNWR Haydon Square goods depot (the NLR being the white van man of the Victorian and Edwardian period in London and was inextricably linked with the LNW) and so NLR locos and brake vans were seen on this route.

 

Edit: cross-posted with the two previous answers.

[Buckjumper]

As an aside, you refer to PO wagons being regarded as common user, but I don't believe that this was the case until WW2. They remained Private Owner and therefore likely to remain on reasonably clearly defined duties (railway

 

Quite right in that they were not common user in the OP's timeframe. What needs to be defined are merchant wagons and factor's wagons. The former will have a very narrow sphere of operations, the latter were much wider and could be regional, or even inter-regional.

 

For example, Chapman, coal merchant at Standon; his wagons would run between Standon and wherever they were filled with coal. Cory, the coal factors, for would have their wagons running all over the place, from colliery to the factor's big depots, as well as from docks where they brought in coal down the coat by ship, and thence onto smaller coal yards as requested. Stephenson Clarke, coal factors was the same, except they also supplied loco coal to the LBSC and the NLR (and possibly others) so their wagons could also be seen in loco depots, at Broad St. terminus etc.

 

Sometimes you might get PO wagons turn up in unexpected places. I have a 1910 photo of an Exhall colliery (Coventry) wagon at Standon and for years couldn't work out why this might be - most of the coal in the region came down via the GN&GE Jnt from the pits in Nottingham and Yorkshire. The puzzle was solved when someone mentioned that in the Edwardian period, some Warwickshire collieries managed to penetrate the East Anglian market through the local coal factor Cootes & Warren. who in this instance was obviously acting as an agent for the colliery.

 

The key is researching the history to see what was possible - or at best, probable.

[jwealleans]

To follow up Adrian's point above, Stephenson Clarke also supplied loco coal to the LSWR, who as a result had almost no loco coal wagons. I don't have the Southern Wagons volume covering the SECR so I can't comment on what their arrangements were.

[SRman]

Thank you all for your informative answers. Eric's (burgundy) answer probably equates most closely to what I thought would have happened.

 

So if i run the SECR 'C' as a period train rather than a preserved one, it looks as if i will have to be fairly selective about which PO wagons to choose since they weren't common user at the time involved.

 

I have done a little digging and I may have to modify the 'Dance Hall' van with a strip of plastic at the lower edges of the body before painting it in the darker SECR grey - this modification is covered in the Cambrian Kits instructions but I haven't been able to find mine. Fortunately for me, Cambrian actually place copies of their instruction sheets on their website (well done Cambrian).

 

As Jonathan says, there were a lot more boundaries in pre-grouping times, which is why I had pondered the subject. Grouping would have considerably reduced the amount of shunting and swapping of locos ... and, most probably, brake vans.

 

The Brighton to Manchester example I used was purely fictional just for the purposes of illustration but, on reflection, it would have been very unlikely anyway as block trains wouldn't really have been around much in those times, if at all.

 

Once again, thanks to everyone who responded here. I have much food for thought and a bit of research to do!

[Bruciethefish]

As an aside, Locos would often work off their home system to the nearest exchange yard of the company taking over onward transmission of their loads. At this point, rather than waste a journey, they would pick up any traffic destined for their home system, which would have been marshalled ready for collection. The home brakevan would be shunted onto the rear of this, & off they'd go to one of their own yards, where the wagons would be sorted again for onward movement to their various destinations.

If no return traffic was offering, they'd return loco & brakevan only.

Wagons in these trains could be shunted numerous times during a journey, & be handled by numerous pre-group companies, each time being broken up, & individual vehicles added to a train going somewhere nearer their final destination. Finally, at the home system's nearest marshalling yard, they would be added to a local pick-up goods which would deliver them to the end customer.

The railway clearing house was originally created to work out the mileage each wagon travelled on each company's system, in order to allocate the appropriate share of carriage fees.

[burgundy]

So if i run the SECR 'C' as a period train rather than a preserved one, it looks as if i will have to be fairly selective about which PO wagons to choose since they weren't common user at the time involved.

 

Rather a long time ago, Jonathan Abson wrote an article in the Brighton CIrcular (Vol 8, No 6) which showed all the goods wagons passing through the yard at Sheffield Park between 30 Nov 1899 and 31 March 1900. It has all the limitations of a snapshot of a particular location at a particular time, but it is interesting in suggesting what local goods traffic might have consisted of. Bear in mind that the sawmilll next to Sheffield Park station would have had a particular influence on the traffic going through.

Ownership of wagons

LBSC 634

PO 25

Midland 18

LNW 10

GN 6

SEC 3

NE 2

GC 2

NS 1

GE 1

 

Wagon types were made up of

LBSC

Merchandise 217

Merchandise with sheet 228

SIngle bolster 82

Empty for loading 41

Coal 1

Vans 37

Double bolster 13

Coke 5

Cattle 5

Machinery 5

 

Other

Merchandise 6

Merchandise with sheet 3

Coal 53

Vans 5

Coke 1

 

PO wagons visiting were Bestwood, Birtley, Cardiff Navigation Colliery, CRC, Lamont Warner, Linby, Newington, Nuneaton, Parry, Pelsall, Roundwood, Rickett Smith, Staveley, Talk o'the Hill and Wigan Coal and Iron. I believe that all of these are either colliery owned or large coal factors (effectively wholesalers) - no local coal merchants.

If you wish to get properly immersed in the niceties of the Victorian coal trade, the "must have" book is "Coal Trade Wagons" by Len Tavender, published in 1991. It is absolutely bursting with drawings, statistics and tables but may be rather hard to find nowadays.

I hope this helps (but don't forget Rule 1 - its your train set!)

Best wishes

Eric

Edited as the list of vehicle types refused to display as a table

[Steve Sykes]

By the time the dance hall brakes came out (1918) wouldn't the C be in the utility grey livery? You could use one of the Midland-type six-wheel brakes for which I believe Slaters did a kit?

[SRman]

Steve, you are right but I am not going paint the 'C' in grey! It looks like the 'Dance Hall' van may also retain its BR grey after all.

 

I'll see if I can find the brake van you mention - so far I can only find the Slaters one in O gauge.

 

I think I'll be happy to get the character of such a train rather than going for strict accuracy.

 

p.s. I did try posting this in the early hours of this morning (Australian Eastern time) but the browser crashed and took the lot with it!

 

Edit: addendum: I did find this etched brass kit in Roxey Mouldings' range - 4F8 LCDR Goods Brake Van - which would probably fit the bill better than the 'Dance Hall'. I have ordered one, anyway!

[kevinlms]

As an aside, Locos would often work off their home system to the nearest exchange yard of the company taking over onward transmission of their loads. At this point, rather than waste a journey, they would pick up any traffic destined for their home system, which would have been marshalled ready for collection. The home brakevan would be shunted onto the rear of this, & off they'd go to one of their own yards, where the wagons would be sorted again for onward movement to their various destinations.

If no return traffic was offering, they'd return loco & brakevan only.

Wagons in these trains could be shunted numerous times during a journey, & be handled by numerous pre-group companies, each time being broken up, & individual vehicles added to a train going somewhere nearer their final destination. Finally, at the home system's nearest marshalling yard, they would be added to a local pick-up goods which would deliver them to the end customer.

The railway clearing house was originally created to work out the mileage each wagon travelled on each company's system, in order to allocate the appropriate share of carriage fees.

 

Don't forget the likes of the Transhipment Shed that the LNWR built at Crewe, where the railways wagons with Less Than Wagon Loads (not Private Owner) were sent to Crewe from the surrounding area. There they were unpacked and the contents redistributed & then repacked into wagons. This saved them heaps of moving wagons around only partly loaded. This scheme meant that the pick up goods type trains apparently saved them about 15% of the wagons that otherwise would have needed to be moved.

Saving wagon moves meant that goods & marshalling yards didn't need expanding & trains not as long and loops/sidings didn't need lengthening.

 

Kevin Martin

[Siberian Snooper]

I'll see if I can find the brake van you mention - so far I can only find the Slaters one in O gauge.

 

 

C & L now carry the Slaters goods wagon kits and Coopercraft now have the coaching stock.

 

Cheers SS

[SRman]

Thanks for that, SS.

[Poggy1165]

I think the most common reason for seeing Company A's brake vans on company B's line would be where company A worked through trains by running powers - for example the GN over GC and Midland routes to Manchester. Otherwise, to the very best of my knowledge, they were changed at the 'frontier' where nine times out of ten the original train would be broken up anyway.

 

The exigences of World War 1 might make exceptions to this. I have in mind the 'Jellicoe' coal specials run from South Wales to Scotland via various routes. Some of the routes involved passage over numerous railways and I honestly don't know what the arrangements for brake vans were. Doubtless someone does.

[burgundy]

The SECSOC website may help

http://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/Kits%20List%20Version%205.pdf

D&S used to produce a couple of SE&CR open wagons - worth watching for on e bay

Best wishes

Eric

[The Stationmaster]

I think the most common reason for seeing Company A's brake vans on company B's line would be where company A worked through trains by running powers - for example the GN over GC and Midland routes to Manchester. Otherwise, to the very best of my knowledge, they were changed at the 'frontier' where nine times out of ten the original train would be broken up anyway.

 

The exigences of World War 1 might make exceptions to this. I have in mind the 'Jellicoe' coal specials run from South Wales to Scotland via various routes. Some of the routes involved passage over numerous railways and I honestly don't know what the arrangements for brake vans were. Doubtless someone does.

As to the first point - yes; exchange would either be a shirt trip over the border to the first yard or traffic exchanged through an exchange siding with no through running (as at Oxford). The London area definitely saw inter yard working between Companies and no doubt it happened elsewhere and - as you say - running powers (and joint lines) would have brought in 'foreign' locos and brakevans.

 

As far the Jellicoe specials are concerned from what I can recall of looking through the 1911/12 special traffic notice on which they were initially based GW vans came off with the GW loco at Crewe (i.e the usual natural border, where there was a GW loco shed of course) although there was an implication that GW men (so no doubt with loco and brakevan) would go through to Warrington on some trains. Ordinary GW freights worked through to Manchester in any case (there was a through goods from Paddington to Manchester in the 1870s for example) and they no doubt saw the GW brakevan all the way through as GW locos definitely worked through on both freight and passenger trains

[DerekEm8]

All the above (pre nationalisation) was recorded by, and one of the main purposes of the Railway Clearing House and their 'Number takers' at Company interchange points on the railway system.

 

An extremely good source of information and drawingson of P.O. wagons and their movements is

'Coal Trade Wagons' by L.Tavender ISBN 0 9510987 1 3

(which also quotes the Sheffield Park reference above)

[burgundy]

Straying away from the original exam question about brake vans, a possible source of some interesting PO wagons is at

http://www.5and9models.co.uk/wagons.html

Parry was a London coal factor, whose wagons are seen quite widely, and I think Clay Cross was a colliery.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric

[Buckjumper]

Straying away from the original exam question about brake vans, a possible source of some interesting PO wagons is at

http://www.5and9mode....uk/wagons.html

Parry was a London coal factor, whose wagons are seen quite widely, and I think Clay Cross was a colliery.

 

 

That Parry livery is very old and had been superseded by the 1890s, if not earlier. For post-1890s livery Powsides do the appropriate transfers in 4mm and 7mm. I used them on some side-door only Glo'ster 5-plk wagons here.