Blacque Jacque Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hi folks, What vehicles would have made up a typical Class 86 / DBSO push pull service from Norwich to Liverpool St. in the era of Anglia turquoise ? I've spent the last hour searching for info on a suitable formation & only managed to come up with snippets. I've found mention of an RFM (Restaurant First Modular ?), but beyond that I can't find anything definitive. I'd expect to see some like 2 x FO behind the 86, an RFM (or other buffet ?), plus a selection of seconds, but that's just a guess ? Thanks in advance for your input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I recall that from the London end there was the class 86 then two first class turquoise aircon Mk2s, an Intercity executive Mk1 catering vehicle, six second class turquoise aircon Mk2s and the DBSO. The Mk1 catering vehicles were never repainted in to turquoise and some survived into the Mk3 sets. This is the typical formation, and all apart from the DBSO has been made by Hornby to create this livery combination. Some of the first class coaches were rebuilt with a catering area (RFM?), and presumably an extra second class coach (might have been a first) was added to replace the redundant buffet coach. These were the only all turquoise trains. The locos were often substituted with non Anglia liveried ones (usually Virgin), and another class 86 (pantagraph down) would sometimes replace the DBSO giving a top and tail formation. Later on the 86s were more often substituted with 90s in a much wider livery variation. There is a really good site somewhere that I cannot find currently that lists the composition of all the Anglia sets (numbered AR1 - AR13 at the time) which is well worth finding, and there was an article in Model Rail that may be of interest if you can find it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) the mk1 catering vehicles would be an RBR which had both kitchen and buffet provision the mk3 catering vehicles were the RFM, again with kitchen and buffet provision - these were built as RUB, or converted from loco-hauled FO/former HST TRUKs both mk2 and mk3 trains would seem to have followed the standard formation, as suzie says DBSO+6TSO+catering+2FO+loco don't know if it was the site suzie was referring to, but thejunction.org.uk had coach sets listed - seems to be closed now, but using the 'wayback machine' have found a page that shows some 'one' cl.90+mk3 sets as well as archived anglia mk2 sets (albeit with cl.90s as well) wayback link EDIT: looked at an earlier capture including cl.86 haulage Edited July 16, 2012 by keefer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) The last year of full IC livery (1/1/1998) P5 had three Mk1 RMBs (1842, 1850, 1871), seven Mk3 RFMs, 26 Mk2 FO, 39 Mk2F TSO (eight window version), 30 Mk2F TSO (ex FO, seven window version) and the remaining thirteen Mk2F DBSO. All RBRs had been reallocated by then. Set AR01 was refurbished/painted in IC livery (DBFO 9710, 10200, plus seven from 6804, 6807, 6813, 6139, 6110, 5956, 3416, 3318, 3309, 3292). AFAIR AR livery was not applied to 9710 and the others as, according to AR at the time, the first set had two pack paint and would have to be stripped to be repainted to AR livery. This was presumably before overlays as 9710 went straight to 1 livery in 2005. The other sets were refurbished from 1998 - the MK1 RMBs were removed and replaced by four Mk2f RFBs from Virgin XC and a single Mk2E FO(t) from FGW repainted in AR livery . By the time I left Ilford in 2001 the sets were one of four formations (subject to the odd missing coach). 2*FO, RFM, 3*TSO eight window version, 2*TSO seven window version, DBFO 2*FO, RFB, 3*TSO eight window version, 2*TSO seven window version, DBFO 2*FO, FO(t), 3*TSO eight window version, 2*TSO seven window version, DBFO 2*FO, 6*TSO various mix of window versions, DBFO. For N gauge the best option is to get any 8 GF Mk2 and a Mk3 (or 9 mk2 for the last three formations) and use electra graphics overlays. For OO and if you accept that the toilets are wrong then for Mk2fs then Hornby does/has done both the mk2s and Mk3 RFM. For the FO, RFB, FO(t) and seven window TSO you will need first class vehicles (they all started out as FOs in reality). Only the three eight window TSOs need second class Hornby coaches (which is handy as the FOs look to be cheaper and more readily available. Electra (and possibly others) do overlays for AR livery. Edited July 17, 2012 by Bomag 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted July 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2012 thanks for that post bomag, certainly shows things are never as straightforward as they seem made me wonder as to why there were all these different catering cars - was it a case of the mk1 RBRs would be on the way out and the mk3 RFMs not available immediately, so they used whatever mk2 ones were otherwise unused and available? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacque Jacque Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Thank you all for your info, most helpful. @bomag; Yes I am modelling in OO (with the inevitable compromises). 8 window Mk2's seem to be few & far between on the dreaded Ebay currently, but I'm sure I can acquire the necessary vehicles. The AR livery is relatively simple to spray so repaints aren't really a problem. Having modelled 9703 previously with plastic surgery, I'm ahead of the game, I know that's a simple conversion without resorting to whitemetal. Simply swapping an IC Mk1 for a Mk3 RFM will allow me to change era quickly & easily. Again, thanks all for your knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted July 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) ^^^ You can get kits of suitable Air con Mk 2 coaches from Southern Pride Models, they consist of preformed etched brass sides and resin moulded ends. Edited July 17, 2012 by Welly 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
definate maybe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Im not sure of the logic behind it but the mk1 buffets were originally kept for the boat train services to Harwich whilst the Mk3's worked the main services to Norwich. In practice it wasnt always kept to these routes so you could easily have a Mk1 to Norwich. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacque Jacque Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Were they still running boat train services at that time ? I thought they'd gone by then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Were they still running boat train services at that time ? I thought they'd gone by then Last 'real' boat train ran in December 2004 according to this: http://www.theflob.co.uk/railway/2004/lharwich/last_real_boat_trains.htm There are still direct Liverpool St/Harwich services but I presume they are all emus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 A RES 86 hired in from EWS would be the favoured replacement for an Anglia "Can" in works, tdm faults were relatively common resulting in the hire of Cotswold Rail (remember them?!) 47s as Thunderbird standbys for added interest. C6T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Horn Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Hello, a couple of formations can be found in my photo set here from 2003 http://www.flickr.com/photos/timhorn/sets/72157630196229892/ with some coaching stock in this one http://www.flickr.com/photos/timhorn/sets/72157630370941816/ Worth having a look at the other Norwich sets on my site as I would have photted the loco and stock in each rake Cheers Tim Edited July 17, 2012 by Tim Horn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 One thing to note if you are feeling pedantic is that the last coach before the DBSO was the smoking carriage for standard class (until roughly 18 months before the smoking ban, at least) - so remove any non-smoking decals on the windows/doors! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacque Jacque Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 A RES 86 hired in from EWS would be the favoured replacement for an Anglia "Can" in works, tdm faults were relatively common resulting in the hire of Cotswold Rail (remember them?!) 47s as Thunderbird standbys for added interest. C6T I have a topless Heljan 47 waiting for exactly that. Hello, a couple of formations can be found in my photo set here from 2003........Worth having a look at the other Norwich sets on my site as I would have photted the loco and stock in each rake Cheers Tim Thanks Tim, a great resource. Bookmarked. One thing to note if you are feeling pedantic is that the last coach before the DBSO was the smoking carriage for standard class (until roughly 18 months before the smoking ban, at least) - so remove any non-smoking decals on the windows/doors! Ah yes, it's been so long since I quit, it never really occurred to me. All valuable contributions, cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Some more GEML piccies for those interested: Ooh and these...just for fun. C6T. Edited July 23, 2012 by Classsix T 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Reviving a dead thread rather than starting a fresh one, I'm having a stock sort and seeing what trains I can make up. I'm up to 5x 7 carriage GEML mk2 sets. Mrs SG isn't amused. But I have some gaps in my knowledge. Thanks to the above info and plentiful internet pictures I have 2x completely turquoise Anglia sets and 1x mixed Anglia and Intercity. I want to make the other 2 sets represent late 80s to mid 90s but things seem less predictable there. For a start, I can't pin down when the DBSOs were fully introduced to the Norwich run. Late 80s and early 90s is mentioned on tinterweb, but no exact date. Anyone know? Next up, when did the Intercity sets end up semi-permanently formed into rakes as listed by Bomag? The reason for asking is illustrated in some of the pictures I've found (linked below) which show the loco, but not with the expected carriages. August 1989, BG and BSO before the 2x FO. Would there have been a DBSO at the other end or would that have been 'B' overkill?! https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/8430151946 FO, BFO, FO in 1987. Assuming this is pre DBSO, but what the rest of the train consist of? And would any of it still be blue/grey? (Seen a 1985 shot at Norwich where a blue/grey aircon had slipped into the Intercity set but that was obviously before the wires got all the way up.) http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=8026782972&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2Fflickr_hvmnd.cgi%3Fmethod%3DGET%26sorting%3DInterestingness%26page%3D2%26photo_type%3D250%26noform%3Dt%26search_domain%3DTags%26photo_number%3D50%26tag_mode%3Dall%26sort%3DInterestingness%26textinput%3D862%252Cal6%26originput%3D862%252Cal6%26search_type%3DTags%23pic8026782972&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/8026782972 Blue 86 and blue/grey BG leading 'executive' set, 1986. Obviously pre DBSO this one, but blue 86 was rare on the GEML, would there still have been blue ones about for the first push pull services at all? And would blue/grey BG have been more common than 'executive' BG in the mid 80s? http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=11286939656&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2FTags%2Fbr%252Cstratford%2FInteresting%3Fsearch_type%3DTags%26textinput%3Dbr%252Cstratford%26photo_type%3D250%26method%3DGET%26noform%3Dt%26sort%3DInterestingness%23pic11286939656&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/11286939656 BSO 'wrong way round' at the Norwich end in 86. Would the odd BSO still get mixed in when the DBSOs started? And is there any chance of even 1 stray blue/grey mk2 aircon slipping in once the DBSOs had started? http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=8026198233&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2Fflickr_hvmnd.cgi%3Fmethod%3DGET%26sorting%3DInterestingness%26page%3D2%26photo_type%3D250%26noform%3Dt%26search_domain%3DTags%26photo_number%3D50%26tag_mode%3Dall%26sort%3DInterestingness%26textinput%3Dbr%252Cstratford%26originput%3Dbr%252Cstratford%26search_type%3DTags%23pic8026198233&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/8026198233 and in the linked video at 06:30 there's a DBSO set heading up through Stratford with a BG! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGBnITFPQNk Many thanks boys and girls! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Presumably the BGs were on boat trains from Harwich? I recall seeing quite a few trains top and tailed with an 86 on each end during the turquiose era, would they have used a BSO in these no-DBSO sets. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH-UK Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The DBSOs didn't start becoming available for Anglian services until the summer of 1990 and that was one by one to begin with, according to an article in Motive Power Monthly from October 1990 "The original intention was for push-pull working to be phased in from May this year, for completion with the October timetable. In the event the first converted DBSO was not ready until early June and three diagrams were due to commence with push-pull working on 10 September with the balance of Norwich and Parkeston Quay InterCity workings using DBSOs from 1 October." By this time I'm pretty sure the last blue 86 had been repainted. BSOs and DBSOs were around at the same time but I always saw the DBSOs at the Norwich end so if there's a BSO at that end it's unlikely that a DBSO is also in the set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 and in the linked video at 06:30 there's a DBSO set heading up through Stratford with a BG! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGBnITFPQNk Many thanks boys and girls! In relation to the above mentioned train - there is a Mk1 buffet and a Mk2D TSO(T) in the rake - would they both have been in use as buffet cars? Or would the TSO(T) just be used as another TSO? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 In relation to the above mentioned train - there is a Mk1 buffet and a Mk2D TSO(T) in the rake - would they both have been in use as buffet cars? Or would the TSO(T) just be used as another TSO? I spotted that too but wasn't aware of any micro buffets in the eastern fleet. Unless I've got it wrong, I always thought Crown Point was the primary depot for the push pull sets, so if the bg is part of the boat train would that set have been maintained elsewhere (illford?) Or would it have made its way up to Norfolk at times? I know from reading that the mk1 buffets chopped and changed which set they were in anyway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I spotted that too but wasn't aware of any micro buffets in the eastern fleet. Unless I've got it wrong, I always thought Crown Point was the primary depot for the push pull sets, so if the bg is part of the boat train would that set have been maintained elsewhere (illford?) Or would it have made its way up to Norfolk at times? I know from reading that the mk1 buffets chopped and changed which set they were in anyway! Up until mid 1990 (well 13th July at least) all the A/C stock were Mk2D with some Mk2E FOs. The standard formation was BFK/FOs/RBR/TSOs/BSO from south to north. There was an inbalance of BFKs to BSOs so some sets had the odd BG esp the boat train (which also had a RMB). I cannot remember any of the TSO(T)s ever being used as a buffet. By then nearly everything was in ICE livery; B/G had disapeared, I don't think it was high up on the list for ICS so only a few of these were noticable. By the end of 1990 the Mk2D/E coaches would have started to be replaced by the Mk2F from the WCML (which were displaced by Mk3s from Scotrail) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH-UK Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 The same article I quoted above did mention "TSO(T)s are now used on the boat trains in place of RMBs" and I do remember seeing sets with the TSO(T) as the only 'catering vehicle' at Liverpool St but I don't remember travelling on them to know if they offered a counter service or just made use of the trolley space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Boat train in 1986 for those curious: http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=12173293963&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2FTags%2Fparkeston%252Ctrain%3Fsearch_type%3DTags%26textinput%3Dparkeston%252Ctrain%26photo_type%3D250%26method%3DGET%26noform%3Dt%26sort%3DInterestingness%23pic12173293963&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/68729621@N03/12173293963 that falls in my 1985 to 99 time frame Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted December 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 25, 2015 Attached is a survey we carried out at Stowmarket in March 86 capturing as much data as we could at the time. Hopefully the coach formations may be useful Andi stowmarket survey.xls 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 That survey is superb! Kind off topic, but from looking over it had the wires got that far but not ready all the way to Norwich? (Just as I had decided I don't need all my mgr wagons I ready '16 mgr + 6 ici tanks', that's my kind of freight!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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