RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2012 Hi folks, While in Cromer earlier this month I noticed that two signals had blue backing plates rather than the usual black; they are also very close to the platform starters. Is there a specific reason for this? I've attached a picture as I am not sure that the terminology I have used is either correct or useful. Sorry about the picture quality but that was as close in as I could get at the time. Thanks and regards, Alex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Hi folks, While in Cromer earlier this month I noticed that two signals had blue backing plates rather than the usual black; they are also very close to the platform starters. Is there a specific reason for this? I've attached a picture as I am not sure that the terminology I have used is either correct or useful. Sorry about the picture quality but that was as close in as I could get at the time. Thanks and regards, Alex. Hi Alex. These are SPAD signals. The middle aspect is red and shows the word STOP and when activated is illuminated constantly if a SPAD occurs The top & bottom aspects Flash red aspects if a SPAD occurs. The Sinal ID Plates refer to which signal is associated with this SPAD signal HTH Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 They are SPAD signals - if a train passes the normal signal at danger they will flash red in the outer lamps and have a steady central red. They are used where there is significant risk if a train SPADs - here the train would enter the single line with the possible ensuing collision. hth I see Meld has also posted the same answer. Widnes has a 4mm model one, which works prototypically, and is often used in our "Whoever SPADs the most on Saturday buys the first round" competition Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted July 29, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2012 Hi folks, Thanks for the swift and thorough explanations. Like most folk, I have heard of SPADs but had never of or seen anything like these before. Again, many thanks. Regards, Alex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2012 To an extent TPWS has rendered these redundent as the train brakes will automatically be applied if a SPAD occurs. However as with many things on the railway, once installed people are very reluctant to sign off their removal just in case...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Indeed. A classic example of cost escalation on the railway, AKA the safety ratchet. Some human factors experts have probably decided that making them a different colour prevents them eroding the normal rule that a driver must stop at a signal displaying no aspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 To an extent TPWS has rendered these redundent as the train brakes will automatically be applied if a SPAD occurs. however they are also used in complicated track areas such as proof house jn in birmingham, where stopping OTHER TRAINS is as important as stopping the train that has spaded, which as you say the tpws will have probably stopped, as you could get a conflicting move if other trains don't stop too as a driver if you see one of these lit you have to stop regardless as to whether it is on your line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 To an extent TPWS has rendered these redundent as the train brakes will automatically be applied if a SPAD occurs. However as with many things on the railway, once installed people are very reluctant to sign off their removal just in case...... Yes I supose that that is a reasonable statement* ... except that with a SPAD Indicator ALL TRAINS heading towards an Activated SPAD Indicator MUST Stop immidiately upon see it activate. L102& L100 signals on the UPL and 6UP at London Bridge had an associated SPAD Indicator until quite recently, which has now been removed - the risk assesment associated with its instalation was re-assesed and it was deemed that the TPWS, associated slow permissable line speed coupled with the distance between the Train Stop Grids and the choke point was enough to mitigate against a collision at the junction of these two lines. Dartford Junction is additionally protected in both directions by SPAD Indicators as well. ( * However if a traction unit has a fault with the TPWS system in the leading cab and it has been isolated to allow removal to a siding for 'boxing in' of the faulty cab with another traction unit or even to a maintainace point for rectification it won't stop a collision ). Another factor is that I would expect that there could be parallel departures at Cromer ( Beast ? ) and then if one driver/guard reads across on the signals due to a distraction and departs againt the starter, and SPADs that signal the SPAD Indicator will also cause the correctly departing train to Stop as it too would have to obey the spad indicator. Again, HTH Mike I See That Big Jim has posted a similar reply ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meld Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Indeed. A classic example of cost escalation on the railway, AKA the safety ratchet. Some human factors experts have probably decided that making them a different colour prevents them eroding the normal rule that a driver must stop at a signal displaying no aspect. Ermmmmm, That is the whole reason that they are NOT Black backed signals ... As a driver, you can safely pass this type of signal in it's un-illuminated state, no rule eroding at all ... it's a different type of signal, that has no input from a signaller to control the traffic. .... RGSOnLine may help, Look Here .... http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/S%20-%20Signals/GERT8000-S1%20Iss%201.pdf Section 4.5. HTH. MC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 RGSOnLine may help, Look Here .... http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/S%20-%20Signals/GERT8000-S1%20Iss%201.pdf Section 4.5. just reminded me ive got my rules the week after next! handy website that, got the rulebook on my ipad to revise from! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2012 If you fail to stop at a SPAD signal is it another SPAD or the same one? Or maybe it's a SPAD-SPAD? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted July 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 30, 2012 Followed by a very unpleasant conversation with your superiors before either being Form 1'd, retrained, transferred in the dead of night to Selhurst or most likely shown the door.... Also there are 'multi spad' signals out there (one I know of is the London end starter on Platform 4 at East Croydon) which are ordinary signals that have been passed at danger (SPAD) more than a certain number of times within a few years. These have a distinctive blue/white stripey surround to the signal background plate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Ermmmmm, That is the whole reason that they are NOT Black backed signals ... As a driver, you can safely pass this type of signal in it's un-illuminated state, no rule eroding at all ... it's a different type of signal, that has no input from a signaller to control the traffic. .... That's what I was trying to say, obviously unsuccessfully! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 as a driver if you see one of these lit you have to stop regardless as to whether it is on your line Always assuming you can see it, which you might on parallel lines if there is no train in the way, but almost certainly not on converging lines. I wonder if the SPAD indicator has a wider angle than the very narrow beam from a normal signal lens. however they are also used in complicated track areas such as proof house jn in birmingham, where stopping OTHER TRAINS is as important as stopping the train that has spaded, which as you say the tpws will have probably stopped, as you could get a conflicting move if other trains don't stop too If the interlocking sees a SPAD on signal A then it would normally be configured to put conflicting signal B back to danger. Any train approaching B would be stopped on TPWS but if it had already passed B would the interlocking also light the SPAD indicator for B? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2012 Please get out of your minds the reliance on TPWS 'stopping trains before they SPAD' - in many cases it will not do so because if a train approaches too fast (notwithstanding overspeed grids in rear) there will be insufficent distance for it to stop and it will still SPAD (sorry about effectively using a 'noun' as a verb - but that seems to be the usage). What TPWS should do, all being well, is bring the errant train to a stand before it reaches a point of conflict with another potential movement (in the vast majority of cases). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Another factor is that I would expect that there could be parallel departures at Cromer ( Beast ? ) and then if one driver/guard reads across on the signals due to a distraction and departs againt the starter, and SPADs that signal the SPAD Indicator will also cause the correctly departing train to Stop as it too would have to obey the spad indicator. In theory at least yes there can be parrallel departures from Cromer, in practice I don't think Cromer is timetabled as a crossing place for the regular passenger service, but delays, or additional trains, or specials to the NNR might see it being used to meet two trains? This is the one at Trimley in it's normal state, and again in operation - before anyone gets worried it operated due to a level crossing fault (caused by a car driver driving into the gates) a couple of miles ahead, the resulting crossing fault meant all trains had to be talked past signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2012 it will still SPAD (sorry about effectively using a 'noun' as a verb Hi Mike, SPAD isn't a noun, it's an acronym. You can use it any way you like. And nouns can be used as verbs -- "helicoptered to hospital". You can do almost anything in English. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Mike, SPAD isn't a noun, it's an acronym. You can use it any way you like. And nouns can be used as verbs -- "helicoptered to hospital". You can do almost anything in English. Martin. And I did have it in parentheses Martin But as you say 'you can do almost anything in English' - and alas an ever increasing number of people are doing exactly that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Turnbull Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Dear All The SPAD indicators on my model of Cromer are fully operational with the power to the track being cut off in the event of a SPAD which replicates the brake application of the prototype. I am always intrigued by the number of railwaymen - of all grades - who ask to see the SPAD indicators work as they have never seen them work on the prototype (fortunately). Of course, sometimes we have an accidental SPAD especially when an operator is distracted whilst chatting to a member of the public. Fortunately the ramifications are less severe than on the prototype - we just press the reset button and continue. Regards Chris Turnbull Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I am always intrigued by the number of railwaymen - of all grades - who ask to see the SPAD indicators work as they have never seen them work on the prototype (fortunately). I have, it made my blood run cold, luckily it was all okay because some drunk had tried to get off after the train had pulled away, pulled the passcom and forced the doors open, the train stopped past the signal but ahead of the grids, driver got permission etc from the signaller, set off but got stopped by the grids and set the SPAD indicators off, more phone calls and it was all sorted but it delayed a lot of trains (Wimbledon up slow line) all because of a p###head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 however they are also used in complicated track areas such as proof house jn in birmingham, where stopping OTHER TRAINS is as important as stopping the train that has spaded, which as you say the tpws will have probably stopped, as you could get a conflicting move if other trains don't stop too as a driver if you see one of these lit you have to stop regardless as to whether it is on your line There's one protecting the flat crossing at Newark, any SPAD there could see, at worst, a loaded 20 odd wagon tank train T-Boned by a 91 and train. Cue a big enough bang to wipe out half of North East Nottinghamshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Turnbull Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I have, it made my blood run cold, luckily it was all okay because some drunk had tried to get off after the train had pulled away, pulled the passcom and forced the doors open, the train stopped past the signal but ahead of the grids, driver got permission etc from the signaller, set off but got stopped by the grids and set the SPAD indicators off, more phone calls and it was all sorted but it delayed a lot of trains (Wimbledon up slow line) all because of a p###head. I should also add that I have a supply of RT3189s available! Chris Turnbull Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Cant we square it mate! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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