stewartingram Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Blindingly obvious. Members of the admin team though do spend part of their free time keeping an eye on potentially contentious content including ones where inconsiderate grumbles are aired. I will be honest and say I don't particularly like the tone you have adopted through the whole of this topic. I shall now go back to having another cuppa on my holiday safe in the knowledge that you won't be winding anyone else up as any posts you make will be checked by a member of the admin team before being publicly viewable. Oh and as I'm on holiday that could take a few days. Perks of the job now you've been taken over then? Holidays....never used to happen in the good old days! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I find it fascinating. In another thread, there are comments about the A4's coming home. In particular, how they have not been "preserved". If someone restored a vintage car to it's former glory, should they then make it look "neglected"? Kim As I understand it the North American A4's are "preserved" and unrestored. In the old car world an original and unrestored car with the "patina" of age is more highly valued, although not necessarily worth more, than the concours restoration. On UK railways the loco's do get weathered anyway, and there are several instances of lines deliberately leaving them dirty for a period. As far as coaching stock is concerned, the public have to get in , and won't be pleased if they get their clothes dirty. I can remember my Mum getting really cross about the atate of coaching stock in BR steam days. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think you will find that my grumble, and yes it is a grumble, has sparked an interesting debate. Why you find it "inconsiderate" to express a preference astonishes me. I can see no occasion where I have been abusive, disrespectful or derogatory - read my posts again. I might add that this is not a courtesy that has been extended to myself - by moderators on this forum. I fail to see how it is winding people up to suggest that performing a bit of shunting would improve the viewing experience. Your initial post did not consider the needs of the operator, several people have given xperienced and vlid perspectives but it's evident from the above that you still feel your grumble is valid. We could have had an interesting debate without the universe centric position. Please leave it alone now. If you can't we,ll just part ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 The problem is the word "preserved" and "preservation movement". It's even in the name of this forum. A working railway can't be preserved. At the north end of Bewdley there was originally an outside slip, a very characteristic GWR formation. Almost within days of taking over, the SVR were ripping it up and replacing it with the present layout of simple turnouts. When I saw that happening I realised that their idea of "preservation" and mine were poles apart, and it coloured my attitude to the SVR for many years. But I was wrong. With the closure of the Tenbury line that outside slip wasn't needed, and had the line continued in BR operation they too would have removed it when it became life-expired, which it probably was by then: http://www.bewdleystation.co.uk/History5_Platform1_3205_large.JPG If you want to preserve a railway you have to stop running the trains -- and who would pay for that? Martin. Edit to add picture link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 When the OP put 'demonstration goods' I was half expecting loads of placards and banners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 Red face department. Having now looked at this picture again for the first time in many years: http://www.bewdleyst..._3205_large.JPG It's not an outside slip at all -- it's a half-scissors. No wonder the SVR didn't want the headache of maintaining something which was no longer needed operationally. But if we can't now recreate that railway scene, then clearly the railway has not been "preserved". Is there such a formation anywhere else on heritage lines? Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Going a tad (!!) OT I have recently developed occasional tinnitus and the pharmacist suggested that the best treatment - as advised to her by an ENT specialist - is to inhale steam. So can I get entry to Didcot and the MHR on prescription I wonder? PS I don't pay for prescriptions;) With the arrival of Northern Gas Board Number 1, we should have steam at Wallingford for most of the next 12 months too! Incidentally, although we don't run demonstration goods trains (mainly due to a lack of crew and line capacity), our engineering trains that we run in the winter months are one brake van only. There is a simple reason for this - we've only got one brake van! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I fail to see how it is winding people up to suggest that performing a bit of shunting would improve the viewing experience. Bill, I don't knopw if you're a railwayman or not, but a 'bit of shunting' during a busy gala is easier said than done.- of course it's possible but the time it takes is the issue. When shunting goes wrong it can be quite nasty. My Dad talks about 'timekeepers' who were those unable to continue in their previous jobs. Rushing shunting during galas could be quite a risky proceedure. As others have said, a preserved railway on a quiet day is very nice - Grosmont in the winter is a favourite of mine. Quiet, few people and perhaps that little bit closer to how it was than in the height of summer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billS Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Bill, I don't knopw if you're a railwayman or not, but a 'bit of shunting' during a busy gala is easier said than done.- of course it's possible but the time it takes is the issue. When shunting goes wrong it can be quite nasty. My Dad talks about 'timekeepers' who were those unable to continue in their previous jobs. Rushing shunting during galas could be quite a risky proceedure. As others have said, a preserved railway on a quiet day is very nice - Grosmont in the winter is a favourite of mine. Quiet, few people and perhaps that little bit closer to how it was than in the height of summer... James - Of couse I understand the reasons behind it, and I don't underestimate the inherent dangers involved in shunting. I remember galas on the SVR when the brake would be loose shunted around the outside loop at Highley in the days when it was unfenced. These things added to the nostalgic experience, but, just as on the public railway we are losing a lot of colour and interest in the name of HSE and convenience. Risk aversion could and may throttle preserved lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think you will find that my grumble, and yes it is a grumble, has sparked an interesting debate. Why you find it "inconsiderate" to express a preference astonishes me. I can see no occasion where I have been abusive, disrespectful or derogatory - read my posts again. I might add that this is not a courtesy that has been extended to myself - by moderators on this forum. I fail to see how it is winding people up to suggest that performing a bit of shunting would improve the viewing experience. It's not what you are saying (which does apear to have some support) but how you are saying it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 Bill, I don't knopw if you're a railwayman or not, but a 'bit of shunting' during a busy gala is easier said than done.- of course it's possible but the time it takes is the issue. When shunting goes wrong it can be quite nasty. My Dad talks about 'timekeepers' who were those unable to continue in their previous jobs. Rushing shunting during galas could be quite a risky proceedure. Another problem for, probably, most railways is not only having somewhere to shunt but also having somewhere where such shunting could be safely observed by an audience and also having someone who can do a running commentary of why the shunting is being carried out and how it is (and was in real life) done - it would be a pointless exercise without such facilities. Loose shunting, particularly double shunting, needs space and nimble staff if it is to be done anything like safely while fly shunting is downright dangerous - which is why it was prohibited for all but 'experienced staff' in BR days. Similarly I doubt whether any preserved railways have got the space to do it even halfway safely (although I haven't visited every preservation site in the country so there might be an exception which does have suitable sidings with good walkways and plenty of siding space). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 It's not what you are saying (which does apear to have some support) but how you are saying it... Agreed, and picking a fight with a Mod is never advisable ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Agreed, and picking a fight with a Mod is never advisable ...... When I was reading through the thread just now, from the first post (and I did think that initial post was a little shall we say "directly worded", but probably not more so than many established members are every now and again, and get away without rebuke) it more appeared to me that Mod5 was picking the fight. Maybe I'm reading it wrongly, but I agree with the OP, Mod5's comment was a little provocative. Maybe apologies on both sides need to be made? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 As I understand it the North American A4's are "preserved" and unrestored. At least for the time being... As I understand it, part of the "deal" to bring them back is that the NRM will be carrying out some cosmetic restoration work on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I wonder if the old way of loose shunting is covered by H&S regulations nowadays? One slip while running beside moving wagons to unhitch a 3-link could easily render an olympic shunter into a paralympic ex-shunter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billS Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I wonder if the old way of loose shunting is covered by H&S regulations nowadays? One slip while running beside moving wagons to unhitch a 3-link could easily render an olympic shunter into a paralympic ex-shunter. It would be sad if the sight of a wagon silently gliding along a siding is now forever lost to us. I used to love watching loose shunting as a kid. One of the most bizarre sights I ever saw was a Swindon DMU off the Inverness line loose shunting a fish van into Aberdeen Guild Street goods yard in the late 70's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M51625 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 demo freight trains, create operational issues, passenger trains earn the revenue, the majority of people pay to ride trains and not wait for a freight to be shunted a round which takes time, what next a complaint that the service at a gala isnt intensive because of all the shunting. I think we should be thankful that heritage railways bother with something that people can't ride on, yes they recreate an atmosphere but do they bring in a corresponding amount of income? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 I wonder if the old way of loose shunting is covered by H&S regulations nowadays? One slip while running beside moving wagons to unhitch a 3-link could easily render an olympic shunter into a paralympic ex-shunter. I was asked back in the late 1980s by the railway Inspectorate to exclude it from a Rule Book I was writing for a preservation site and to prohibit it on that site - which I didn't quibble with as I thought it sound advice. Any preserved etc railway which thinks of doing it nowadays would, I think, be failing as a Duty Holder if it were to allow it without first carrying out a risk assessment and if that is satisfactory to be very specific about where it is allowed, the training and qualification of those who will be allowed to do it, and the vehicles/locos they would be allowed to do it with. If a railway didn't do that and someone happened to be injured in some sort of incident when carrying out loose shunting I have a nasty idea the Railway concerned would find themselves in court because that is the way ORR are now heading with such Railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 demo freight trains, create operational issues, passenger trains earn the revenue, the majority of people pay to ride trains and not wait for a freight to be shunted a round which takes time, what next a complaint that the service at a gala isnt intensive because of all the shunting. I think we should be thankful that heritage railways bother with something that people can't ride on, yes they recreate an atmosphere but do they bring in a corresponding amount of income? To reinforce this view, at the Mid Hants we have had in the past quite vociferous complaints from punters who simply wanted to ride behind as many locos as possible, and couldn't understand why we were wasting paths on goods trains, steam crane runs and the like. I think it's fair to say that we long ago gave up trying to please everybody. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 demo freight trains, create operational issues, passenger trains earn the revenue, the majority of people pay to ride trains and not wait for a freight to be shunted a round which takes time, what next a complaint that the service at a gala isnt intensive because of all the shunting. I think we should be thankful that heritage railways bother with something that people can't ride on, yes they recreate an atmosphere but do they bring in a corresponding amount of income? I would not like to start a whole load of 'what a puerile attitude' type posts, [if that's what you think, thank you but I don't want to know] but I love to see clean, well restored P.O. wagons moving about, the same wagons are probably the result of hours and hours of painstaking work by a small number of volunteers labouring on what most visitors think an unimportant part of their visit to a preserved railway. Not everyone can be involved in whitemetalling the big-ends of the star locomotive [A Star locomotive..?] but most members of such a railway can handle a paintbrush... Goods wagon demonstrations? Lots of choo-choos and coloured wagons going 'clang' and 'bump'? Funny looking vans with verandas? Bring 'em on in twos or threes, I for one won't be annoyed! Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Strikes me that anyone who thinks a preserved railway is here to recreate what happened on the real railway x years ago is completely missing the point. They are there to make sure that old stuff survives and to give a taste to joe public of what it was like to travel by train in the past. For their stuff to survive of course THEY have to survive. If the train from bewdley is half an hour late do they thrash th hell out of the loco to try and make up what they can? Of course they dont! If you want to see old trains working and being looked after then go to a preserved railway. If you want to see THE old railway as it was the only place you will get close is a model railway or old films. I am amazed someone wouldnt get this simple point. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 I was asked back in the late 1980s by the railway Inspectorate to exclude it from a Rule Book I was writing for a preservation site and to prohibit it on that site - which I didn't quibble with as I thought it sound advice. Any preserved etc railway which thinks of doing it nowadays would, I think, be failing as a Duty Holder if it were to allow it without first carrying out a risk assessment and if that is satisfactory to be very specific about where it is allowed, the training and qualification of those who will be allowed to do it, and the vehicles/locos they would be allowed to do it with. If a railway didn't do that and someone happened to be injured in some sort of incident when carrying out loose shunting I have a nasty idea the Railway concerned would find themselves in court because that is the way ORR are now heading with such Railways. Loose shunting, fly shunting and double shunting has as far as I am aware been expressley prohibitted since the first rule book was introduced in the 1970s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 This has usually been my favourite photographic subject, and my main motivation for visiting preserved railways at gala weekends. I am increasingly irritated by the now almost universal placing of brakevans at each end of the train, however short. In real life, whilst not unknown, this was rare on revenue earning services. Why is this now so common - is shunting that difficult nowadays? Does it irritate anyone else? I don't see why so many people are giving this bloke such a hard time. He's giving a point of view and asking why it is so - what's the problem? Mob mentality I think... Once a moderator jumps in people automatically assume that he's right and that his target must be a wrong 'un. Seeing as demonstration freights never remotely resemble anything in steam days. Oh really? I think that resembles rather closely what went on at colliery railways up and down the country in steam days. The wagons don't look anything like "Hornby" - unless Hornby are offering a bespoke weathering service these days... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2012 He's giving a point of view and asking why it is so - what's the problem? The problem is that he just wanted to let everyone know how irritated he was - which is his problem and his alone. Despite various others trying to answer the why his subsequent posts just reiterated his irritation, he doesn't seem to be interested in finding the answer to his own question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I noticed the point Ruston is making, Bill could have worded it different but did get jumped on. good job Bill didnt ask it on National preservation forum or he really would got a response. do any railways offer brakevan rides in the same style as brake van tours in the 1960s, say 5 or more brake vans as a normal train ride? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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