6959 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I have not bought any Bachmann loco's for more than a year because the prices are higher than I want to pay even from mail order firms that for many years have offered Bachmann products at good prices (for the buyer) but do not offer big discounts now. For most of this year I have been buying Hornby coaches instead plus some older stock from other makers (Bachmann, Replica and Dapol). Today, I decided that maybe I should get some Bachmann recent releases including City of Bath and a 4575. Comparing prices from five or six suppliers that my search engine found at random I was surprised to see that in all cases the discounted prices were exactly 85 percent of RRP. Is this a coincidence? With most retail goods there is generally a slight variation of prices across the board. I was waiting for the prices to come down slightly like they used to after the initial sales rush but they all seem to be stuck at 85 percent of RRP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 ....I was surprised to see that in all cases the discounted prices were exactly 85 percent of RRP...... Pity they're not 58 % of RRP..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Just a reminder that there is no such thing as RRP. Manufacturers such as Hornby and Bachmann can indicate the level of retail price that they expect their products to retail for but cannot 'set' this price. Frustrating as it is, in the long term, deep discounting does not do the hobby good. The fact that items are selling for similar prices actually helps ensure a reasonable distribution and availability of items through a wider range of outlets. If you are willing to be patient and are flexible about the exact model you want there are still fantastic bargains to be had but I don't think you can simply assume that the specific item you want will magically be sold at half the price the manufacturer originally assumed. Older items and secondhand listings can also turn up fantastic bargains so on balance I do think that the hobby remains accessible to a very wide range of budgets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted September 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2012 Isn't it Bachmann policy to try to restrict discounting on new items? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53592-Bachmann-pricing-policy-to-retailers/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Yes, I believe that Bachmann have restricted discounts to 15% maximum of the RRP. Whether this affects them or/and the retailer in a positive way is debatable, I suppose. I know from running my own business, non-model railway related incidentally, that increased prices on general catalogue items nearly always-upon-always results in substantially lower sales volumes. Although higher retail prices should in theory mean a higher profit margin, this doesn't always translate, as if production numbers need to be decreased to accomodate reduced demand then it really depends upon whether production costs per unit rise as a result of lower production batches etc. So it can be a Catch 22 situation, so in short, not always good for 'the industry'. I for one have held back considerably on pre-ordering upcoming Bachmann items (I would generally expect to have anything up to a dozen items on pre-order at any one time - but certainly not this year due to the noticeable hike in prices), and occasionally by the time the model appears I may have had second thoughts anyway, or I may simply hold out a little longer, or indeed I may not bother to purchase at all - so one or two lost sales at least from this customer... and if others are possibly doing likewise... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 The key words in your post are "recent releases". Now as I knew it the maximum 15% discount wasnt set in stone but only applied to models within 8 weeks of their release/hitting the shops and beyond that the retailer was free to sell at whatever price they wanted (even though Bachmann are or were pressing/encouraging retailers not to heavily discount). Older models in the range are clear of the 15% rule.........hence why Hattons have the Bachmann DCC sound fitted Freightliner Class 57s up for a paltry £119 right now. Retail (or whatever you want to call it) was I believe around double that price on initial release. I would be interested to know if this situation has impacted on the numbers of pre-orders taken by retailers because I for one have held back on a few of these for this very reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I try to buy from my local shop cos' I'd like them to stay in business.They do sell at a discount, although not as much as the big boys. However, I shall say yet again, even at full price models of this calibre are a bargain. They are better than the best hand-built of even a few years ago, and much better and cheaper than I can build from a kit. I also love the idea of models in conjunction with the NRM to give them some money and would love to see this extended to preservation societies and lines. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 . I am really torn on this issue. I can remember the "meltdown" that happened in the early 90s when the discounting got so "good" / "bad" that many ordinary "toy shops" went out of business. In addition, later I had a very, very good local model railway shop, Thames Trains (of which I still have fond memories) which went out of business due to overly competitive pricing. However, this forced limitation of discount does seem rather against the spirit, if not the letter, of the law, and I have seen the effect when looking at the prices of the newly announced weathered EMUs ( horrendous ! ). I can't see this policy holding as sooner or later Bachmann are going to be warned off. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Isn't it Bachmann policy to try to restrict discounting on new items? http://www.rmweb.co....y-to-retailers/ When Bachmann issued this 'request' to their dealers, they said that they didn't want deep discounting during the first eight weeks from the release of new products. So if we are patient, we may see the familiar levels of competitive discounting returning from those retailers who discount. Those who cannot resist the urge to have the newest of the new may find thier habits have a price tag attached to them! I know there is the risk of new items all being sold during the first eight weeks, but as we learn to look at our wallets more closely and hold off until/in case prices drop, there should still be enough to go round. Unless, of course, we are told before release that there is only going to be one batch of a fixed quantity produced. Another benefit from not rushing to get it on the day of release is that there is more chance of any production/assembly faults becoming known - we can be better informed customers by waiting a little! Richard Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 The legality of Bachmann's ruling was discussed extensively in the now-closed previous thread, and I don't want to re-open that particular aspect. However, a point that seemed to be missed in the original thread concerned the 8-week application window of the 85% rule. If, for its own part, Bachmann wish the ruling to be applied properly and transparently, then it seems to me incumbent on Bachmann that it should publish a list of the official 'release date' of each product. That would then help shops and suppliers plan media ads and website changes etc. The chances of shops actually receiving new products within 8 weeks of Bachmann's 'release date' is another matter of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 Links to recent EU (German) case which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=79a9ae24-d2b2-4366-8073-492f6b4b9d4b http://www.mondaq.co... September 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 The chances of shops actually receiving new products within 8 weeks of Bachmann's 'release date' is another matter of course. There are several factors that can affect this: Did the retailer order the items ahead of release date? If no to Q1 is there still stock available? How frequently do they receive orders from a manufacturer (e.g. order volumes and frequency)? Do they have available account capacity at that point? Therefore it's not entirely dependent on the manufacturer whether product x is on a retailers' shelf on y date irrespective of any official release date. I don't know, however, whether the 8 weeks is from any initially available date or when the retailer received their stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Links to recent EU (German) case which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. http://www.lexology....73-492f6b4b9d4b http://www.mondaq.co... September 2012 It doesn't apply as that was fixing a price at one specific point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Andy - I was thinking of items pre-ordered by a retailer with a regular arrangement with Bachmann and whose account capacity is adequate and normal. I don't know, however, whether the 8 weeks is from any initially available date or when the retailer received their stock. I don't have the Bachmann 9th March letter in front of me, so can't recall the exact words (I think someone said it was supposed to be on their website somewhere, but I can't find it), but I am certain the 8-week window applied to Bachmann's 'release date'. Perhaps retailers with the letter readily to hand can confirm this. All I'm saying is that the rule does not make sense unless there is visibility of Bachmann's official 'release date'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 There are some new (@ last 6 months) items of Hornby stock that have been heavily discounted by at least one of the of 3 large mail order suppliers and they are still not selling. Hypothetically and generically Is there anything to stop a retailer after a set period who has stock that is not moving just dropping the price until it sells to and taking the loss. I would have thought if they they were then sanctioned by a manufacturer that would be illegal or an I wrong? XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Is there anything to stop a retailer after a set period who has stock that is not moving just dropping the price until it sells to and taking the loss. No - in fact any attempt to prevent this would be illegal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted September 7, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 7, 2012 Like it seems many others, I had stopped pre-ordering Bachmann items because of the maximum 15% discount allowed on new releases, on the assumption that after the pricing embargo (for want of a better expression) retailers would revaluate their prices against sales and some prices would come down to previous discount levels. However, from the retailers I normally buy from this does not seem to have been case. This suggests to me that retailers are securing sufficient sales at current prices and see no immediate need to discount further. Whilst this means that we are paying higher prices than we might have expected to based on previous pricing policy, hopefully it is having the, as I understand, desired effect of supporting those local shops that cannot afford to offer the large discounts we are used to seeing from the high volume retailers, such as Hattons. I have certainly increased my use of different retailers as a result, particularly those that will fit a DCC decoder for you - a big plus for those models that are a "pig" to do it yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Taking the prices asked my Hattons, Model Railways Direct, and Hereford Model Centre as a guide to the best discount prices for Hornby and Bachmann products, I then look for better prices at shows and on ebay, mainly to save on postage by paying slightly less overall for a single item. As 2012 has progressed there seem to be fewer Hornby and Bachmann coaches from the current catalogues on sale on the secondary market and on ebay. I wonder if that, as well as suggesting lower discounted prices to the mainstream suppliers, Hornby and Bachmann have closed the back door to the secondary market. The secondary market has always existed for trade sellers who do not want to have a main account which requires them to stock the full range including slow moving stock. This was also an avenue for manufacturers to clear end of lines or items that were over produced or do not sell as well as anticipated. Generally, the bargain basement prices we have got accustomed to in recent years are rarer now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I wonder if that, as well as suggesting lower discounted prices to the mainstream suppliers, Hornby and Bachmann have closed the back door to the secondary market. Bachmann's policy as I understand it is only to supply retailers with a shop presence to avoid trade purchases by swapmeet traders, so I'm not sure they've ever had much of an official secondary market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I wonder if that, as well as suggesting lower discounted prices to the mainstream suppliers, Hornby and Bachmann have closed the back door to the secondary market. Hornby don't have a similar restriction in place but they do distribute via wholesalers so you, me or anyone could start buying and trading on ebay from their garage. However because this involves an intermediary they'll be less likely to be able to compete or have sufficiently attractive margins. Chasing the lowest possible price ultimately restricts the choices available and the number of retailers around who are going to be able to service future needs. Price isn't everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB17005 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I have just pre-ordered a Lanky tank at RRP - 15% , which is my first venture into new loco purchase since the 3F was released (which I pre-ordered 2 years prior ?). I was rather surprised at the 15% level recalling that it used to be in the low 20s (22/23 ? anyone). On this occasion I was happy with the order price because the net price still looked a veritable bargain. The acid test with this as with any pricing policy is sales. If the products sell then 15% is right , if they don't , the retailer will have to reduce to some extent to keep stock moving because stock holding invariably involves borrowing.. I suspect it will vary from product to product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hornby cancelled a number of new items this year "due to lack of advance orders" either they are trying to get people to pay more by pre ordering as per comments above? . Or they never intended to make the items anyway and were trying to divert orders away from their competitors and gain pubicity for their other products?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB17005 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Hornby cancelled a number of new items this year "due to lack of advance orders" either they are trying to get people to pay more by pre ordering as per comments above? . Or they never intended to make the items anyway and were trying to divert orders away from their competitors and gain pubicity for their other products?. diverting slightly :- probably a naive question , but does the volume of pre-orders influence the prioritising and urgency of the build ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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