Stanier Pacifics at Paddington

[steve fay]

I have heard of Staniers Princesses being used on LM Expresses in to Paddington during the Electrification of the WCML in 1962 although I have never seen any photographic evidence of this.

Most of my locos are built in the 1960 62 period and although two princesses and two duchesses where drafted on to the Western during 1956 this is really out of my time period. I know theres always modellers choice but if I could get concrete evidence its always better and if 71000 ever made it that would be the iceing on the cake. Even if it does not Im still having one.

Ive checked Six bells junction but this only covers rail tours and specials.

Thanks

[melmerby]

The WR definitely used some Stanier pacifics when the Kings were suffering from bogie problems. There are photos of them on LBWs (Paddington-Wolves!)

e.g.

http://www.warwicksh.../gwrbsh1306.htm

I would tend to ignore the caption, AFAIK this was one of the loans for the Kings.(unless someone knows otherwise!)

 

Keith

 

Edit: but a few years before your period!

[steve fay]

Thanks for the reply. This was indeed a loan in 1955 to access the duchess in anticipation for an excelerated service. I have the dynamometer runs info in a book.

The loan for the kings cracked bogies was jan to feb 56 the two princesses and two duchesses. One of which was city of Salford the Ivatt duchess. The others don't come to mind but I will dig it out of my book in the morning.

Superb picture thanks for that..

I know it's a long shot but a grubby princess and Duchess in maroon mixed in with my castles and king would look a bit nice.

[Coach bogie]

71000 Duke of Gloucester was sent to Swindon for testing including runs to Bristol and back in the mid 50's

 

Mike Wiltshire

[melmerby]

Thanks for the reply. This was indeed a loan in 1955 to access the duchess in anticipation for an excelerated service. I have the dynamometer runs info in a book.

The loan for the kings cracked bogies was jan to feb 56 the two princesses and two duchesses. One of which was city of Salford the Ivatt duchess. The others don't come to mind but I will dig it out of my book in the morning.

Superb picture thanks for that..

I know it's a long shot but a grubby princess and Duchess in maroon mixed in with my castles and king would look a bit nice.

Wasn't sure about that Warwickshire railways caption - I have seen several mis-labelled.

 

What route would the WCML services use to access Paddington?

 

I can remember the incremental electrification works, but not what diversions took place, apart from the weekend Trent Valley services which between Stafford and Rugby were diverted via the Grand Junction Line - Aston - Stechford & Coventry.

They brought allsorts of rare locos to the Birmingham area but were rarely hauled by Pacifics.

 

Later when diesels had made big headways into the WCML services Duchesses were regular visitors to New St, after preliminary work for electrification had opened up the clearances. I believe before that they were officially banned.

Previously they had been seen more often in Snow Hill (ex GWR)!

 

Keith

[steve fay]

Locos on use jan 56 to feb 56,

46210 Lady Pratricia

46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught

46254 City of Stoke on Trent

46257 City of Salford.

[Coach bogie]

Locos on use jan 56 to feb 56,

46210 Lady Pratricia

46254 City of Stoke on Trent

46257 City of Salford.

 

plus

 

46237 City of Bristol 18/5/55 on the CRE

 

Mike Wiltshire

[steve fay]

Wasn't sure about that Warwickshire railways caption - I have seen several mis-labelled.

 

What route would the WCML services use to access Paddington?

 

I can remember the incremental electrification works, but not what diversions took place, apart from the weekend Trent Valley services which between Stafford and Rugby were diverted via the Grand Junction Line - Aston - Stechford & Coventry.

They brought allsorts of rare locos to the Birmingham area but were rarely hauled by Pacifics.

 

Later when diesels had made big headways into the WCML services Duchesses were regular visitors to New St, after preliminary work for electrification had opened up the clearances. I believe before that they were officially banned.

Previously they had been seen more often in Snow Hill (ex GWR)!

 

Keith

 

Keith

Im not sure what route any diverted express would have taken.

I dont know if the Pacifics where drafted on to the WR services. Ive asked this question before and some people have said that they where used, I personally have never seen a picture or any thing wrote about it, But that does not mean its true and hopefully some one on here could help.

I could always have a green pacific but a red one would be nice

Am I right in thinking the princesses spent quite a lot of time in storage between 1960 and 1962 up until there withdrawal?

[EddieB]

Have you checked Railway World, Railway Magazine and Railway Observer for the period in question? All three would have reader/member reports and observations around unusual workings.

[Bulleidnutter]

On the topic of the route. Id imagine they would have taken the route down through Leamington from Birmingham. Either via Coventry or Tyseley.

[Andy W]

When thinking about the possibility of Stanier Pacifics getting onto the WR to Paddington on WCML diversions, you do need to consider the route by which they'd get there and whether they would be likely to be replaced by WR power en route as a crew change would undoubtedly be necessary for route knowledge reasons. Anything involving a reversal is out as that would have caused a loco change. Then there are axleload and clearance restrictions on many of the possible diversion routes.. As a result the most likely diversion routes would have been Crewe-Shrewsbury (which saw booked workings by Stanier Pacifics on fill-in or running in turns) or Bushbury - Cannock Road Junction, a very short section with an LMR shed at one end and a WR one at the other. But in either of these cases the train would have passed through at least Wolverhampton Low Level and probably Birmingham Snow Hill, and these stations had plenty of enthusiasts and photographers hanging around. I was one of them in the early '60s and never heard tell of any stray Pacifics. In fact as has been said, while Britannias were regular visitors and Clans occasional ones, Stanier Pacifics were rare birds indeed at Birmingham on LMR metals.

 

The original WCML electrification service changes involved shifting nearly all the service onto alternative routes as a part of the timetable - so the Midland line services were increased from Manchester, Liverpool passengers were encouraged to use Birkenhead-Paddington services, Wolverhampton and Birmingham saw a dramatic increase in Paddington services, and of course the Blue Pullmans played a part in this. When the project was completed, the lines that had been used as alternatives very rapidly lost their through services, and in some cases all their services.

[Mark Forrest]

From memory, most of the photos I've seen of (electrification era) diversions on the Wolves LL - Birmingham line show Class 40s, but I'll have a flick through a couple of books incase I've missed anything.

[Guest]

I remember seeing a pic of a Duchess at Paddington carrying a distinctive GW reporting code on its smokebox door. I think (but don't quote me on this) it was in Brian Haresnape's Stanier Locomotives.

[melmerby]

The original WCML electrification service changes involved shifting nearly all the service onto alternative routes as a part of the timetable - so the Midland line services were increased from Manchester, Liverpool passengers were encouraged to use Birkenhead-Paddington services, Wolverhampton and Birmingham saw a dramatic increase in Paddington services, and of course the Blue Pullmans played a part in this. When the project was completed, the lines that had been used as alternatives very rapidly lost their through services, and in some cases all their services.

The Wolves - New St - Euston service was withdrawn completely during electrification works and added to the Wolves - Snow Hill - Paddington service resulting in a doubling of frequency from two hourly to hourly (previously they alternated between the two routes). This meant more "King" hauled trains, some of which had been released from Laira with the ongoing dieselisation of West of England services. (N.B. No LMR Pacifics!)

Once electrification was complete rapid reduction of the GWR route service took place, leading eventually to complete closure of Snow Hill - Wolverhampton in 1972.

Fortunately most of the track bed was protected, hence the Midland Metro.

 

Keith

 

Edit: I think the Blue Pullman was an extra Business Class service

[ThePipersSon]

I remember seeing a pic of a Duchess at Paddington carrying a distinctive GW reporting code on its smokebox door. I think (but don't quote me on this) it was in Brian Haresnape's Stanier Locomotives.

 

Yes it was 46210 on Dainton Bank, on the 10th February 1956.

[The Stationmaster]

I remember seeing a pic of a Duchess at Paddington carrying a distinctive GW reporting code on its smokebox door. I think (but don't quote me on this) it was in Brian Haresnape's Stanier Locomotives.

There is certainly a pic of one, 46254 - departing Platform 1 on 16.02.56 on 'The Merchant Venturer' (reporting number but no headboard) and also of 46210, passing North Acton on 'The Inter City' on the same day, in 'Western Region Steam Around London' published by Ian Allan. But both of these are of course during the period when the 'Kings' were stopped.

[Guest]

How about some creative modeller's licience here? I remember reading somewhere that (I think it was) Roland Bond wanted to transfer a number of Duchesses to the old LSWR route on the Southern Region to replace some ailing Bulleid pacifics. He was defeated by tunnel clearances in the Southampton area and was said to be "bitterly disappointed" (I'll try and find the passage in the relevant book). Why not a similar imaginary scenario here but for other reasons?

[melmerby]

How about some creative modeller's licience here? I remember reading somewhere that (I think it was) Roland Bond wanted to transfer a number of Duchesses to the old LSWR route on the Southern Region to replace some ailing Bulleid pacifics. He was defeated by tunnel clearances in the Southampton area and was said to be "bitterly disappointed" (I'll try and find the passage in the relevant book). Why not a similar imaginary scenario here but for other reasons?

I suppose you could imagine the extra services to Paddington being powered by LMR locos, transferred (Temporarily) to OOC or Stafford Road.

If the Kings had not been released from the West of England what would they have used?

As 10201/2/3 were regulars on services through New St you could also have one of those (how dreadful?). Personally I rather liked them!

It stretches the time frame a bit though.

 

Keith

[steve fay]

From memory, most of the photos I've seen of (electrification era) diversions on the Wolves LL - Birmingham line show Class 40s, but I'll have a flick through a couple of books incase I've missed anything.

 

Ah now that is interesting, class 40s to padd?

Im begining to believe that the pacifics never appeared on these Services at this time. Im going to try and dig up a thread I started on the old Rmweb to see who gave the info.

17 11 1963. 46245 City of London Worked a railtour in to Paddington. A big red Duchess right in my preferred time period. Magic

 

Number now corrected.

[Andy W]

The Wolves - New St - Euston service was withdrawn completely during electrification works and added to the Wolves - Snow Hill - Paddington service resulting in a doubling of frequency from two hourly to hourly (previously they alternated between the two routes). This meant more "King" hauled trains, some of which had been released from Laira with the ongoing dieselisation of West of England services. (N.B. No LMR Pacifics!)

Once electrification was complete rapid reduction of the GWR route service took place, leading eventually to complete closure of Snow Hill - Wolverhampton in 1972.

Fortunately most of the track bed was protected, hence the Midland Metro.

 

Keith

 

Edit: I think the Blue Pullman was an extra Business Class service

And of course Manchester Central and Birkenhead Woodside no longer have trains at all.

 

The other thing was that the 1960s WCML electrification was a rolling programme moving south, with the changeover point getting nearer and nearer to London once the initial phases from Liverpool and Manchester to Crewe had been completed, and electric haulage was used wherever possible for passenger trains even if this meant two traction changes en route, only a few non-stop services (The Royal Scot?) had Class 40s throughout, so the pool of diesels could cover more and more of the service as time went on.

Going on at the same time was resignalling and this would have been more likely to force diversions on a few weekends than the wiring works which tended to be built into the published timetable.

I believe there were also WCML trains rerouted into Marylebone from Bletchley - of course Marylebone was LMR at this point so this was keeping it in the family.

[Leander]

Not only were trains diverted to Marylebone, certain services terminated at Kensington Olympia and St Pancras as well.

 

One of the latter was the overnight sleepers from Workington, which left Preston at about 10.40pm, behind an EE Type 4 as far as Crewe where an electric took over to Nuneaton, at which point another EE Type 4 replaced the electric. The train then left the WCML onto the Nuneaton - Leicester line as far as Hinckley, then south non-stop southwards on the MML, thus bringing a fairly rare loco type to St Pancras on a regular basis. From memory, I recall this route being used in 1965.

[melmerby]

 

The other thing was that the 1960s WCML electrification was a rolling programme moving south, with the changeover point getting nearer and nearer to London once the initial phases from Liverpool and Manchester to Crewe had been completed, and electric haulage was used wherever possible for passenger trains

I can remember travelling from Manchester to Birmingham just after the initial phase had opened.

The train was hauled Manchester - Crewe by two gleaming brand new AC electrics and seemed to fairly fly down that bit of the journey.

At Crewe we got a Black 5 and it all seemed rather pedestrian by comparison.

 

Later when the wires reached Euston there were some specials from various stations along the route to show off the new electric services.

I got a £1 ( (if I remember correctly) return from Nuneaton to London!

 

All with maroon coaches of course.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

 

17 11 1963. 46254 City of London Worked a railtour in to Paddington. A big red Duchess right in my preferred time period. Magic

Pedantic: London was 46245 not 54.

Also on this one: http://www.flickr.co...igh/3234376269/ at Snow Hill from Paddington

 

Actually It was the first Duchess I saw in New Street once they started using them in the LMR London services.

 

Keith

[steve fay]

Pedantic: London was 46245 not 54.

Also on this one: http://www.flickr.co...igh/3234376269/ at Snow Hill from Paddington

 

Actually It was the first Duchess I saw in New Street once they started using them in the LMR London services.

 

Keith

 

Oh bu@@er my mistake.

[Dampflok]

Ah now that is interesting, class 40s to padd?

Im begining to believe that the pacifics never appeared on these Services at this time. Im going to try and dig up a thread I started on the old Rmweb to see who gave the info.

17 11 1963. 46245 City of London Worked a railtour in to Paddington. A big red Duchess right in my preferred time period. Magic

 

Number now corrected.

 

And here's the evidence, though not a brilliant shot - the train was not routed into the most photogenic part of Paddington, it was right over by the LUL lines and rather hemmed in by wagons! The train was 1X68, the LCGB "Stanier Pacific Railtour" which started from Euston earlier in the day and went to Crewe, return was via Nantwich, Market Drayton, Wellington, Birmingham Snow Hill and High Wycombe to Paddington, with arrival timed at 18:35:

 

 

Hope that's of some help,

 

Cheers, Geoff