Kirkcaldy area

[Ian Smeeton]

Casks were not just used for whisky or beer, but for all sorts of other goods from pickled herrings to nails.

 

So a cask wagon could be intended for all sorts of traffic apart from the obvious.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

Interesting to note that when this individual was born,1829, Thornton was described as Thornton Markinch. I presume that at that time Thornton would be a very small village, if that, perhaps little more than a farm. Markinch would be the nearest place of any size. Thornton grew to the size it is now with the coming of the railway and for a long time a large percentage of the population were railwaymen. There are several places called Lochty but the Lochty burn passes North of Thornton and runs into the River Ore at Waukmill which is where I think that the Bleach works was. I tried searching the internet for this and found that the owner of the works fought one of the last duels in Scotland and there is a book on the subject and I read some of the extracts. It seems that his opponent a Kirkcaldy Banker must have been an argumentative type as he had already tried to get an ancestor of mine, then the local tobacconist, to fight with him but had been refused.

The full description IIRC of the wagon was " Empty Cask Wagon" I had always assumed that that meant returning empty beer barrels etc. does not explain the return to Kirkcaldy branding on the wagons though. On my weekend walk I reached the Edradour Distillery. This is the smallest Distillery in Scotland, attractive buildings and very tasty product! It reminded me that some whiskies are matured in second hand Sherry casks and that contributes to the colour/flavour. Pure speculation but could there have been a trade of these through Kirkcaldy Harbour?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Bernard Lamb]

Thanks for that Ian.

In the 1841 census the address is given as Thornton Farm so you are correct in your reasoning.

I now have found two more people from this family who are described as bleach workers.

Regarding Edradour. Andrew Symington, the current owner, at one time lived a few doors along the road from my sister.

They have recently produced the odd small batch named after the long gone small distilleries in the area.

My niece is a tour guide and a regular visitor to the distillery.

It's a small world.

Bernard

[Neilgue]

It's probably not quite true, but my Mum used to say that folk from Thornton were a bit queer....

[Ian Kirk]

Hi All,

In an effort to lose a few pounds I walked most of the length of the "Lang Toun" today. I have not looked around Kirkcaldy in ages. Surprising how many changes and how quickly some things that I can remember are disappearing. I had bought a few items from Scoonie Hobbies so I left the car there and set off to walk. Looked at south side of Sinclairton goods yard narrowly avoiding car salesmen as part of the goods yard is car sales. Did see that the former BRS/BR transfer shed is still complete and in use for something. Walked down the path to the harbour. A small ship was in the "Falcon" of London. Looked to me to be about the same size as the ships that called in the harbours heyday when the lock gates etc. were still working so they must have made a good job of dredging. Sadly there seems to be even less traces of the railway system. There is still the bit of embedded track at the harbour entrance and there may still be some further out on the overgrown and fenced off pier areas which I could not reach. Hutchison's seems to be thriving and are in the course of building a huge concrete /stainless steel structure with concrete roadways behind the main building (and therefore on top of the site of the old sidings). There is one bit of curved embedded track which crosses the burn and disappears at a fenced off building. A sign here warns of "offensive odours" (Kirkcaldy water treatment works) so I did not investigate further. I walked round the new houses and had a look at the lock gates and swing bridge they are still there but not of course functional. Surprising how small it all seems  now. Must get out the 25 in to mile maps and draw it up to scale............

Walked the prom and back , no railway interest just nostalgia and weight loss, then back by the inland route. The top of the harbour branch is very overgrown but you can look down on it from the bridge and it is quite clear. The other car sales place, beside the tramway power station (very derelict but still standing) where I could remember embedded sidings was a disappointment. They have built concrete bases to display their cars on over most of it and only a short length of track remains at the top. Glad to see that they are working on Nairn's old factory which was: will they won't they Knock it down for a while. Probably going to be flats. Walked on to the North side of Sinclairton goods. There is a fine stone built high/low loading bank on the left hand side as you go in  the gate and some track remains going into building opposite. This is owned by a car repairer and looks quite modern. The track leads in though so it is either on the site of a goods shed or built around one. You get a good view of the big South side goods shed from here and it looks just as it did in the 50s. Picked up the car at the back of Scoonie and drove home enthused about building a Kirkcaldish layout but got home and did very little as usual.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Neilgue]

Ian,

I did a similar thing earlier in the year, though on a larger scale - I was there on a three week visit from Australia.  My interest in model railways was rekindled  after a heart attack. It's amazing how your view of the world changes when you are lying in a hospital bed. I had a great time exploring the railway and the lost industries of Kirkcaldy. (Some of the pictures can be seen earlier on this thread.) While Kirkcaldy has been the family home for at least three centuries, I only have vague memories of Industrial Kirkcaldy. I clearly remember not being too wee to see over the Bennochy Rd bridge, and I can still see Barry's factories in Forth Avenue.

 

I too would love to build a Kirkcaldy themed layout. looking at the old 25" maps I was drawn to the area between Rosebery Tce and the junction to the harbour branch. The maps show lots of factories and sidings with what seem like impossibly small track radii. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any pictures of that area and apart from Nairn's power station and the scrap yard in Den Rd, the buildings have all been knocked down.

 

It's still early days yet, but I am going to have a go at adapting the track plan and make some buildings based on photos from the Canmore site.

 

Cheers, Neil

[Lochty no more]

Hi,

Interesting to note that when this individual was born,1829, Thornton was described as Thornton Markinch. I presume that at that time Thornton would be a very small village, if that, perhaps little more than a farm. Markinch would be the nearest place of any size. Thornton grew to the size it is now with the coming of the railway and for a long time a large percentage of the population were railwaymen. There are several places called Lochty but the Lochty burn passes North of Thornton and runs into the River Ore at Waukmill which is where I think that the Bleach works was. I tried searching the internet for this and found that the owner of the works fought one of the last duels in Scotland and there is a book on the subject and I read some of the extracts. It seems that his opponent a Kirkcaldy Banker must have been an argumentative type as he had already tried to get an ancestor of mine, then the local tobacconist, to fight with him but had been refused.

The full description IIRC of the wagon was " Empty Cask Wagon" I had always assumed that that meant returning empty beer barrels etc. does not explain the return to Kirkcaldy branding on the wagons though. On my weekend walk I reached the Edradour Distillery. This is the smallest Distillery in Scotland, attractive buildings and very tasty product! It reminded me that some whiskies are matured in second hand Sherry casks and that contributes to the colour/flavour. Pure speculation but could there have been a trade of these through Kirkcaldy Harbour?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Ian

there was a large traffic in sherry casks from Kircaldy Harbour to Cameronbridge distillery ( Windygates ) and possibly to other distillery`s - the Grange distillery at Burntisland, I forget the name of the distillery at Auchtertool. When the whisky was made they needed something to put it in hense the reason for the NB cask wagons, once the barrels had been filled they went into a duty free warehouse for a minimum of 3 years, full whisky barrels would have been transported by more secure vans to the bottling plants e.g. Haig`s plant at Markinch. I belive this traffic went over to road vehicles after WW2

Regards Lochty

[keefer]

a new pic to me, 06008 at kirkcaldy in 1978 - spot the cliche 'bus on a bridge'!

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8145519454/in/set-72157632100892577/

[asarnot]

Ian

there was a large traffic in sherry casks from Kircaldy Harbour to Cameronbridge distillery ( Windygates ) and possibly to other distillery`s - the Grange distillery at Burntisland, I forget the name of the distillery at Auchtertool. When the whisky was made they needed something to put it in hense the reason for the NB cask wagons, once the barrels had been filled they went into a duty free warehouse for a minimum of 3 years, full whisky barrels would have been transported by more secure vans to the bottling plants e.g. Haig`s plant at Markinch. I belive this traffic went over to road vehicles after WW2

Regards Lochty

Have been out of the loop for a week or two, so missed the info re empty cask wagon traffic from Kirkcaldy Harbour - so thanks to Lochty, Ian et al.

Regarding the transportation of barrels in secure vehicles, I suppose the best known would be the ex-Palvans converted to CLV's or Crown Lockfast Vehicles for Johnnie Walker. Whilst restoring one of same at Dunaskin for the ARPG we found evidence of the inner sheeting heavily scored by the metal hoops on the barrel ends. The conversion to CLV's seemed to consist mostly of beefing up door locks and catches and welding up most of the exposed nuts on the bodywork. (A bu**er when you are trying to replace side pannelling.  The floor timbers are quite heavy, but I don't know if they are 'as built'.

JW had 20 of these vans, but the number series runs from CLV one ninety odd into the two teens, so I don't know whether others such as Haig would also have similar vehicles to fill the gap from CLV 1 to CLV 190. Most photos I have seen of Markinch or Cameron Bridge show plenty of BR and preGroup 12T box vans around, but few, if any, Palvans.

Please find a wee photie of our van at Waterside.

 

Andy.

 

['CHARD]

Looks like another relic of the harbour branch is about to be lost. 

 

This Railscot pic suggests the span over Dunnikier Road is scheduled for removal:

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=44411

[keefer]

saw signs on dunnikier rd. last week and just thought there was maybe going to be resurfacing work going on. as has been noted from Google streetview before, it doesn't look like much has been done to the disused deck for some time

 

EDIT: bridge removal http://www.fifedirect.org.uk/roadworks/index.cfm?fuseaction=roadworks.display&town=&type=C&roadnumber=&objectid=C484C197-B3AF-E493-369CA85F1E9F48F4

Edited September 2, 2013 by keefer

[scottishlocos]

Guys

 

Shameless plug here but if Thornton Yard is included in Kirkcaldy area then I am building an N Gauge layout inspired by Thornton as it was in the 1990's just as EWS took over and there was an upturn in traffic please take a look

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76867-strathore-yard/

 

Regards

 

Dave

[asarnot]

I expect many of you will have seen the article in February's edition of 'Steam Days' by John McNab re a trip from Dundee to Edinburgh in early BR days. Not much on Kirkcaldy, but there is an interesting pic of Invertiel Junction. Now, I must have passed this location scores of times, but I can't remember the signalling layout here. Was there a splitting down 'home' for the branch, or was it controlled solely by a ground disc? I seem to remember that the up distant was paired with Kirkcaldy advance starter at Nicol Street underbridge, but of course it all changed when Seafield colliery and the new cabin opened. 

[stevecs]

 

002 62708 argyllshire next to top of harbour branch incline.jpg

the top of the Kirkcaldy harbour branch ( courtesy Pete Westwater )

 

And the final remnants have just been removed around two weeks ago.  The Bridge was finally removed a for the harbour branch and the parapets bricked up.  I wonderdd what was going on one morning when getting up for work turned out of my street drove down and the whole area was barricaded off.

 

I don't remember seeing anything in the news or any local notice about it. but its gone.

 

EDIT: I see Keefer mentioned it above.

Edited February 7, 2014 by stevecs

[Tim V]

I went there once, 21 July 1978.

['CHARD]

Thanks for sharing, Tim.  That's exactly as I remember it as a lad of 12, waiting for the next burst of loco-hauled action.  Great to see the 06 pilot lurking behind the box as per.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Yep, just as I remember it from my family holidays in the late 70s.... it always rained

 

Lovely pics, Tim.

[keefer]

And the final remnants have just been removed around two weeks ago. The Bridge was finally removed a for the harbour branch and the parapets bricked up. I wonderdd what was going on one morning when getting up for work turned out of my street drove down and the whole area was barricaded off.

 

I don't remember seeing anything in the news or any local notice about it. but its gone.

 

EDIT: I see Keefer mentioned it above.

I saw dunnikier rd. blocked off then too, but forgot to post about it!

I presume it was an easier job than might otherwise have been, as the 'mainline' span was replaced a few years back with a concrete deck.

The harbour branch span was still the old metalwork and in a pretty poor state (visible on Google street view) so removing this would be less likely to affect the other.

The parapets have been finished with about 3 courses of breezeblocks (or similar), the grey matches the side walls quite well.

Edited February 7, 2014 by keefer

[stevecs]

I saw dunnikier rd. blocked off then too, but forgot to post about it!

I presume it was an easier job than might otherwise have been, as the 'mainline' span was replaced a few years back with a concrete deck.

The harbour branch span was still the old metalwork and in a pretty poor state (visible on Google street view) so removing this would be less likely to affect the other.

The parapets have been finished with about 3 courses of breezeblocks (or similar), the grey matches the side walls quite well.

 

I erm managed to have a look today They must have done a fair bit of clearing to access it as it was easier to get down the old opening that has been there for years and judging by how far I managed to get down to the curve I reckon with a decent pair of boots on and maybe just a decent pair of hand cutters you could get all the way down and under Victoria road to the bridge.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2014 by stevecs

[stevecs]

One Station that seems to be elusive when it comes to photos is Sinclairtown Station.  I just happened to mooching around on YouTube and came across a Video called Auld Kirkcaldy  

 (check out around the 50s mark)

 

It has a photo of Sinclairtown on it so I grabbed a copy of the video and then took a snapshot using VLC.  I tidied it up slightly but was just wondering if anyone else knew of photos of the Station building itself? (I don't think there are any copyright issues around this as the video was user made from lots of photos but will take down if issues arise)

 

Edited February 21, 2014 by stevecs

[keefer]

a quick look at google streetview shows what's left: http://goo.gl/maps/QFlqj

 

can't remember if it's been mentioned already in this thread, but the station was originally on the other side of st. clair st.

 

1894: http://maps.nls.uk/view/82881924#zoom=6&lat=5303&lon=4568&layers=BT

 

1914: http://maps.nls.uk/view/82881927#zoom=6&lat=5424&lon=4502&layers=BT

 

presumably moved to aid the expansion of the down goods yard, which gained a loop off the mainline

 

EDIT: compared the maps and the goods yard doesn't really expand - the down loop is lengthened and has a small headshunt

Edited February 22, 2014 by keefer

[stevecs]

The only other thing of note that I noticed when I first looked at the maps before was the Signal box was moved most probably when they moved the station.  In the 1894 map the signal box was just before the station at the start of the goods yard and in the 1914 map it is showing as being on the edge of the bridge over Factory road.

[Graham R]

... Invertiel Junction .... I can't remember the signalling layout here. Was there a splitting down 'home' for the branch, or was it controlled solely by a ground disc? I seem to remember that the up distant was paired with Kirkcaldy advance starter at Nicol Street underbridge, but of course it all changed when Seafield colliery and the new cabin opened. 

 

Here's a drawing of the arrangements when Invertiel Jn opened in 1896 (from a sketch made available to me by Robert Dey - thanks Robert). I would guess the signalling would have been simplified by the 1950s however. You might also be interested to see John Hinson's diagram of Foulford Junction at the other end of the Kirkcaldy & District Railway. The sketch I worked from says Invertiel worked to Foulford, but there was also an intermediate block post at Auchtertool from 1896 to 1923.

 

[Edited to fix drawing mistake]

cheers

Graham

Edited February 23, 2014 by Graham R

[asarnot]

Here's a drawing of the arrangements when Invertiel Jn opened in 1896 (from a sketch made available to me by Robert Dey - thanks Robert). I would guess the signalling would have been simplified by the 1950s however. You might also be interested to see John Hinson's diagram of Foulford Junction at the other end of the Kirkcaldy & District Railway. The sketch I worked from says Invertiel worked to Foulford, but there was also an intermediate block post at Auchtertool from 1896 to 1923.

 

Inverteil-Junction-1896.png

[Edited to fix drawing mistake]

cheers

Graham

Thanks for the info Graham. I certainly don't recall either a down splitting home or distant, but, as you say, the layout would probably have been altered long before I became aware in the 50's/60's.

 

Andy

[Graham R]

Thanks for the info Graham. I certainly don't recall either a down splitting home or distant, but, as you say, the layout would probably have been altered long before I became aware in the 50's/60's.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

You are right ... I've updated the diagram using a sketch dated to 1933, and as you say the splitting distant had gone and the branch home had become a subsidiary arm.

 

Lochty No More posted an image of the Branch Distant signal higher up the thread.

 

 

There are some nice photos of the remains - mostly bridges - of the Kirkcaldy and District Mineral Railway on this site. Interesting that the tunnel to Seafield under the ECML is still in place.