Kirkcaldy area

[asarnot]

The group of sidings shown in dark red on your plan, Graham, were often known as the land sales sidings, which would explain the presence of the weighbridge.

J69 no. 68504 was frequently used as Kirkcaldy station pilot, Ian, (I wonder if it was vacuum fitted?), but was an early casualty, being withdrawn before the last of the J83's (68453, 68456) or J88's which also fulfilled station and goods yard pilot duties.

I have a vague memory of a J88 sitting at the ash pit at Roseberry Terrace, but no more than that. I don't think the siding was occupied much during the working day, and certainly not by more than one loco at a time. I wasn't sure about a water tank there, although that would make sense, as I doubt if there were any facilities at the harbour itself.

Regards, Andy.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Great thread of an overlooked but fascinating area. My grandad worked in Seafield Colliery, and he and Gran lived in Veronica Crescent. I spent a couple of weeks holiday there every summer. Highlights were the train trip to Edinburgh, where I would get to spot from Waverley for the day. I particularly loved the EG push pulls with 2x27s...

 

One summer the family decamped to Kingussie where my Uncle Alec owned a BnB. They went by car, I got to ride by train. I think this would be 1978. I took a few pictures on my terrible 126 Instamatic, oh how I wish I'd taken so many more.

 

 

 

 

 

Hidden behind the BR brakevan in the first shot is the resident 06. I think we'd all love to be able to ride behind a class 40 over the Highland mainline again....

['CHARD]

Exactly as I remember the station. To the last detail. I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't there on that very day. So glad you were there with your 126, none of my snaps have survived.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

One thing I recall very vividly was the amount of oil all over the sleepers and the pungent aroma of oil and creosote. My local station back home in Gloucestershire had nothing like that, and I've often wondered why Kirkcaldy (and Waverley) seemed drenched in the stuff. You could hardly see the proper colour of the ballast.

['CHARD]

Your photos sum up my modelling and memories of the era perfectly. I repainted a Tri-Ang 101 into that refurbished mainly white livery after riding one from Kirkcaldy to Burntisland, lusted after a Jouef 40 just to recreate the Aberdeen ECML expresses (I was a mere lad, okay), and bought a Wrenn standard grain wagon from Scoonie Hobbies on the strength of what was normally to be seen in the yard.

 

The circular Coal Merchants pale blue sign has taken me stright back too. Forgotten all about that beautiful period detail.

[Lochty no more]

Kirkcaldy coal wagon

[Graham R]

How is "Dunnikier" pronounced locally ? Dunny-Keer or Done-ikky-er? Nice photo, either way.

[keefer]

it's dunni-keer graham

 

i've lost the link, but it was the oswald family which had the original dunnikier house in pathhead, later building dunnikier house on their estate (now the dunnikier house hotel in the park). there is an oswald rd. in kirkcaldy, but now more of a side-street since the building of dunnikier way

 

the colliery was north of smeaton rd., east of sinclairtown goods yards: 1914 OS map from nls

there are still a couple of railway lines in the later 1938 map, but the colliery seems to have gone - strange seeing a pit in the middle of a town!

 

incidentally graham, in your signal diagram for dysart what do the terms N.C., H.N.C. and L.C.R. mean?

 

the coal-merchant with the blue sign mentioned by 'CHARD is shown in the photo i linked to earlier of the 06 next to the signalbox - this would have had level access from the road/car park. presumably this was a different merchant from the one on bennochy bridge, i wonder if there were any more?

 

although i was a bit young to remember clearly, like 'CHARD Dr.GB's photos bring back a lot of childhood memories.

 

excellent stuff everybody

Edited October 18, 2012 by keefer

[Graham R]

it's dunni-keer graham

 

Thanks!

 

in your signal diagram for dysart what do the terms N.C., H.N.C. and L.C.R. mean?

 

I am nervous of giving a definition with professional railwaymen watching , but to the best of my knowledge:

 

NC = "Normal Control" - the distant signal must be at caution (the "normal" position) before the signalman can give "Line Clear" on his block instrument to accept a train from the box to the rear.

HNC = "Home Normal Control" - the home must be at danger ("normal") before Line Clear can be set. Effectively the signalman must replace the home signal to danger before accepting another train. Where there are both NC and HNC, both signals must be "normal".

LCR = "Line Clear Release" - the signalman in advance must give "Line Clear" on the block instrument before this signal (it's the section signal) can be cleared to send a train into the section. Often this release only works for one pull - if the signal is returned to danger before the train leaves, it can't be cleared again without a fresh "Line Clear" granted by the signalman in advance.

 

In other words they are all safety interlockings to make sure the Absolute Block system is followed correctly. If this makes poor sense there's a better explanation here; scroll down to figure 4.

 

the coal-merchant with the blue sign mentioned by 'CHARD is shown in the photo I linked to earlier of the 06 next to the signalbox - this would have had level access from the road/car park. presumably this was a different merchant from the one on bennochy bridge, i wonder if there were any more?

 

Here's an interesting sketch of Kirkcaldy yard from January 1966, kindly provided by Robert Dey ... the top line was clipped from the scan and should read 'Buch & Clark' '16 End Doors'. Ian Kirk, now you know how many wagons you need for your model of Kirkcaldy yard

 

 

I agree with you that Dr. G-F's photos catch the atmosphere very well ...

 

Graham

[keefer]

thanks for that graham, you know more about signalling than me! (admittedly wouldn't be difficult)

 

fantastic diagram too, showing what a sprawl of sidings there was at one time.....

 

thanks again

[beast66606]

NC = "Normal Control" - the distant signal must be at caution (the "normal" position) before the signalman can give "Line Clear" on his block instrument to accept a train from the box to the rear.

HNC = "Home Normal Control" - the home must be at danger ("normal") before Line Clear can be set. Effectively the signalman must replace the home signal to danger before accepting another train. Where there are both NC and HNC, both signals must be "normal".

LCR = "Line Clear Release" - the signalman in advance must give "Line Clear" on the block instrument before this signal (it's the section signal) can be cleared to send a train into the section. Often this release only works for one pull - if the signal is returned to danger before the train leaves, it can't be cleared again without a fresh "Line Clear" granted by the signalman in advance.

 

NC - being pedantic, it's the lever must be normal in the frame, not necessarily the arm at danger/caution (with distant signals there is generally a repeater and so the line clear can be wired through these showing the arm at normal)

 

HNC - again being pedantic, it's the lever must be normal in the frame, not necessarily the arm at danger.

 

LCR - it was one pull only as you say, otherwise it would be useless.

Imagine a train passed the box, all signals were put to danger, but the signalman in the next box didn't peg train on line, the local signalman could still pull off for another train !

['CHARD]

This is also posted on the Heljan Class 27 thread, but around 3.30 there's great footage of a turnback move at the Lang Toon, watch out for the Railfreight 26 lurking beyond the Bennochy Road bridge:

 

 

9.42 of Fife BRCW thrash...

['CHARD]

I found a stash of notebooks - in very neat childhood hand (adolescence did for that what it did for taking numbers...) were the following entries:

 

Kirkcaldy 28/5/78

06008 DT

26023+26040 IS

Sc51244+59302+50143

40068 YK

47430 GD

 

TJ 29/5/78

20217 HA

Sc50145+59539+51249 DE

08341 DT

47273 HA

26026 IS

25064 IS

Sc50290+59114(ex-TS)+50148 DE

Sc50141+59563+? DE

40068 YK

40160 HA

Sc51530+?? DE

20121 ED

20217 HA

26046 IS

20219 HA

 

DT 31/5/78

08247 DT

08572 HA

20191 HA

08271 DT

 

Kirkcaldy 31/5/78

26010 IS

40018 SP

 

Kirkcaldy 1/6/78

20111 HA

40052 YK

20184 HA

43075+43074 HT (254010) to Newcastle

55010 HA Newcastle - Waverley

Sc51460+59564+51534 DE Waverley - Kirkcaldy

 

Kirkcaldy 3/6/78

47421 GD

 

Kirkcaldy 4/6/78

20204 HA

Edited October 21, 2012 by 'CHARD

[keefer]

sorry for the late reply 'CHARD, but thanks for posting those. i suppose if i was ever to model KDY, it would be in this era.

 

looking through the list, i noticed the lack of 27s and deltics. presumably the former not appearing as the dundee-edins would still be DMUs, the latter not appearing on edin-abdn until the full HST deployment?

 

very useful numbers tho!

[Ian Kirk]

Hi All,

Graham said:

 

 

 

Here's an interesting sketch of Kirkcaldy yard from January 1966, kindly provided by Robert Dey ... the top line was clipped from the scan and should read 'Buch & Clark' '16 End Doors'. Ian Kirk, now you know how many wagons you need for your model of Kirkcaldy yard

 

 

 

I have always known how big a project it would be to do it right. Twenty odd feet long and something over five feet wide (not counting the line to the flour mill). Realistically I refer to the project as "Kirkcaldish".

 

Andrew, I can not find the relevant volume of the RCTS LNER loco books so I don't know if that J69 was fitted. Shows how careful I should be of my memories, just because it was a J88 on the days that I can remember did not mean that it was always so. I was speaking to Pete and he says that he can recall seeing a J69 down the harbour on at least one occaision. He did not know if all of the pilots "slept" at Roseberry Terrace as the Station pilot when not actually working sat in the siding next the signal box . This I can also remember and when the Hunslets were introduced they were sometimes both parked there. Pete also said that the Station pilot (and possibly the Sinclairtown one) had to go to Roseberry Terrace for water etc. There was a water collumn and a tank. I was at Scotgog in Linlithgow at the weekend and was speaking to Sandy Gorski (another Kirkcaldy MRC member in the 60s and now President of the Gauge O Guild) who thinks that he has a photo of a J88 sitting over the ashpit. If he can find it he will send me a copy.

 

I think that the Coal Merchant who had the house/office at Bennochy bridge was Buchanan & Young and that Clark's (Robert?) had a similar office in a cul de sac at the back of the old High School (now the Tech). They had a large scale (about 5in gauge) model coal wagon with the name on it in the window. I don't know if there ever was a prototype -did they have private owner wagons? or was it just advertising?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[asarnot]

I discovered RMweb through my recent interest in Gauge 1 modelling, and by introducing the topic on whether the J38 class were the last of Gresley's steam designs in regular service - they were, and thanks to all responders.

I wanted my G1 models to reflect the Fife, and particularly the Kirkcaldy, areas at the transition from steam to diesel, and have also built a Class 20 from a Wagon & Carriage Works kit, modified to a Scottish variant with deeper cab windows and tablet recess, and would like to make it a Thornton allocated one. Loco allocation lists of the 1965-66 period show all 20's as allox to Eastfield, Polmadie and one or two to Haymarket, but I know 62A had quite a few on its books.

Pete Westwater suggested D8110 as being a fairly long time resident, but I wondered if anyone knew of a couple of others? I seem to recall D8094, D8098, but I wasn't much interested in diesels at this time, and shifted my allegiance from BR to the WPR at the end of mainline steam, and moved away from Fife shortly thereafter. I was interested therefore in 'Chard's sightings, as above.

Also, does anyone remeber the Seafield - Longannet block trains which ran for a good few years? AFAIR they were headed by pairs of 20's, and even a pair at the front and a third at the rear on occasion. I think there may have been some form of radio control for the third loco. Can anyone confirm?

[keefer]

there's a mention of the longannet MGRs in this post: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/24638-burntisland-questions/page__st__25&do=findComment&comment=270239

 

earlier in that topic, i mentioned a pic i'd seen of one being banked through dunfermline lower station - in the pic the train is going away from the camera round a right-to-left curve.

so, if they went from seafield, through burntisland and inverkeithing ? junction to dunfermline, they must've reversed there to go along the line to longannet?

 

anyways, from the post linked above, horn signals were used, unless there were 2-way radios in use?

 

i have a conditional WTT from the 70s somwhere - i must dig it out as it's mostly MGRs i think and it'll give the routes/traction and wagon load. the MGRs tended to be a certain number of HAAs according to the service

[scotcent]

Normal route was from Forth Bridge up through Dunfermline to Halbeath Yard, reverse, then back through Dunfermline to Longannet. Sometimes they went from Forth Bridge to Kirkcaldy, Thornton, Cowdenbeath, Longannet. Occasionally they went through Stirling to Perth, reverse, then through Ladybank, Thornton, Cowdenbeath, Longannet. It was to do with pathing on the main E & G line and the Forth Bridge.

 

Allan F

[keefer]

hi allan, i wonder if you're thinking of seafield in leith? as trains from seafield pit in kirkcaldy to longannet wouldn't need to go near the forth bridge.

 

the route was seafield pit - burntisland - inverkeithing (east jn. - north jn chord) - dunfermline then reversal at townhill.

i suppose an alternative path could be reverse after coming out of seafield pit, then north through kirkcaldy - thornton - cowdenbeath - townhill then to longannet

 

edit:

found the conditional WTT for may-october 1974.

seafield - longannet MGRs are booked for 3 x cl.20 and 41 wagons

westfield opencast - longannet trains are also booked as above, but reverse at redford jn, then cowdenbeath - townhill

Edited October 28, 2012 by keefer

[scotcent]

You're quite right, of course.

I was actually thinking of a later period when (as now) the coal comes from opencast sites in Ayrshire.

 

And I'm getting confused between Halbeath and Townhill. It had always seemed odd to me that Townhill

Yard was much closer to the original Halbeath station than to Townhill.

 

And can anyone tell me why my original post disappears in one line off the right hand edge of the screen?

I haven't done anything different, I think.

 

Allan F

[Lochty no more]

Some more gem`s from Pete Westwater`s collection

Coal yard, Kirkcaldy goods

level crossing at Normand Road

Caledonian train at Den Road

at Dysart

wagons at Kirkcaldy harbour

Southern Railway wagon at Kirkcaldy harbour

"McKenzie & Holland" swing bridge signal at Kirkcaldy harbour

"Stevens & son" knee frame Nairn`s siding`s, NBR drop flap ground signal in background

Robert Hutchison grain vans at Kirkcaldy harbour

Loads more to follow!

[asarnot]

More terrific pix. You can always rely on Pete to deliver the goods.

[Graham R]

I came across this photo (Railway Magazine January 1941) the other day, when looking for something else... to the left in the distance can be seen the loco servicing facility at Rosebery Terrace mentioned by both Ian and Andy earlier on in the thread.

 

 

The roof of Harbour Branch Junction box is behind the fourth carriage of the train (which is travelling north). Although the photo appeared during the war years, it may well date from before the war, given the cleanliness of the loco. I believe the P2s were repainted in black in 1941 and 2005 doesn't look ready for a repaint!

 

Edit: interesting that the service is shown as being Edinburgh-Dundee ... I would have thought the P2s would have been kept for the heaviest, ie Aberdeen, workings. Maybe it was a fill-in turn?

Edited November 24, 2012 by Graham R

[dvdlcs]

I'm impressed that an Edinburgh - Dundee working loads to 7 coaches! (assuming the caption is correct) although WWII may have had an influence.

 

I can recall a Class 27 + 4 Mk1s or a 3-car Class 101 DMU making these workings in the 1980s, then a 2-car Class 150/2 Sprinter! although the frequency may have increased in the half century between the picture and my memories.

 

Not in that area any more, so not sure what a Edinburgh-Dundee service loads to now, or how often they run.

[keefer]

I'm impressed that an Edinburgh - Dundee working loads to 7 coaches!

 

was thinking that myself, maybe someone with more knowledge of these services would be able to tell if it's a dundee or aberdeen service.

is the 4th coach a restaurant/buffet by any chance, in which case it'd be more likely an aberdeen train?

(that said the waverley-queen st. expresses used to have a buffet in steam/early DMU days and they were only an hour or so journey)

 

the other thing at the time of the photo would be the relative lack of personal motor transport for most folk. and of course, the road network would be nowhere near as 'quick' as today - (no motorways, dual carriageways etc.) so i don't suppose even any 'express' bus or coach services would be as quick as the train?

 

great pic though, esp of a stretch of line hardly seen