pointstaken Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Sorry to disappoint you all folks but Ms Bradbury is not always rescued from mountain tops in a helicopter, she gets escorted down by me and that's really, really nice. P (Nose expands dramatically............) Speaking for myself, I'd leave her up there, permanently ! Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iL Dottore Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 You'll have watched many an enthusiast DVD I'm sure, with the nasal commentary and monotonous rambling about all things obscure. I battle with these as an enthusiast. For the general public, you're just going to turn them off. you've hit the nail on the head - for too many in specialist hobbies, delivery, presentation and entertainment tend to be ignored and "only the facts" presented. This, as Alastair rightly points out, is the kiss of death. Given that the multi-million pound PR industry is based on getting the right message across in the right way to the right people, it behooves the specialist hobby fraternity (women are very sadly underrepresented in such hobbies) to "up their game" in promoting these hobbies. I think a good example of effective presenting what could otherwise be dry, boring, factual information is what Lucy Worsley manages to do with her TV series. I read a lot of history and see her programmes as light entertainment, but I never feel condescended to or talked down to (She even managed to surprise me with some interesting titbits of information about the Georgian period - a period of history I am much interested in. Surely there must be a Lucy Worsley somewhere out there for our specialist hobbies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 I think a good example of effective presenting what could otherwise be dry, boring, factual information is what Lucy Worsley manages to do with her TV series. I read a lot of history and see her programmes as light entertainment, but I never feel condescended to or talked down to (She even managed to surprise me with some interesting titbits of information about the Georgian period - a period of history I am much interested in. Surely there must be a Lucy Worsley somewhere out there for our specialist hobbies? Lucy Worsley is even better as a 'live' speaker - pint sized but an amazing 'pocket rocket' power of delivery with enthusiasm bubbling over but an incredible mass of facts carefully presented; and if you've attended one of her previous talks she throws in a few questions to see if you were paying attention last time! I'm quite sure that the guy who did the SVR programme (and other things in the past) has the right sort of presentational enthusiasm to make people listen but what needed to be sorted on this programme was what he had been scripted to say - it was as easy to get it right, in exactly the same 'light' manner, as it was to get it wrong. This contrasts with the Worsley approach where admittedly she has the advantage of learning and a lot of experience in her area of expertise but she gives the facts in an interesting manner with a spot of humour thrown in to help it all along (plus some post-watershed bits of history as well when she's doing a live talk). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 You'll have watched many an enthusiast DVD I'm sure, with the nasal commentary and monotonous rambling about all things obscure. I battle with these as an enthusiast. For the general public, you're just going to turn them off. Yep, and I agree. I don't really care about the loco numbers, for example (but at the same time appreciate the historical archiving when it comes to finding out what ran when) and have seen many a video as you describe. However, to go back to my football analogy, they don't seem to worry about in-depth analysis putting off non-football fans. Get an interesting presenter, who knows what they are talking about, researchers that aren't ignored in the cause of soundbites and present it in depth. Don't worry if people that aren't interested in railway don't like it. Make it so the people that do want to watch learn something. I agree with Mike too, even if you are going to make a glossy shallow program that misses out loads of important info, make sure that the info you do include is not factually incorrect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2012 Irrespective of what we may think, what has been interesting this week is the number of senior people within our company who have spoken to me about this programme, who are not railway enthusiasts. Without exception they have all been in praise of the it and said that the language was appropriate for them. They were not bothered by ' train yard' or some of the other things What they were impressed with was the fine tolerances that were worked to, that the programme looked not only at the locomotive, but also at track and the fine work that goes into watch making. Kind regards Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 27, 2012 I think a good example of effective presenting what could otherwise be dry, boring, factual information is what Lucy Worsley manages to do with her TV series. Add Professor Alice Roberts to the list IMHO, another one who can get the message across, accurately and with enthusiasm. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sheep Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Oh dear - some very nice film (albeit with continuity of the train shots that made some of Michael Portillo's trips look superbly edited) but some of the commentary was awful and very misleading due to sloppy scripting. I'm not sure it was scripted For all that these types of Tv. programme are shallow and more oft` lacking 'substance'.....at least they are showing people actually "doing and making"......Dibnah has gone, but we now (more than ever) need to show enthusiasm for skilled manual-work as an exemplar for our young future engineers. Hopefully, despite it not being quite as accurate as it could have been (I agree, it wouldn't have taken much to make it a bit more accurate) it will encourage people into at least viewing and celebrating our industrial heritage, which will hopefully help the people and places that keep it alive through higher visitor numbers / ticket sales etc even more so, I hope it results in more volunteers helping keep it alive I just find his manner extremely annoying I also saw the narrow boat programme and thought it just seemed like two blokes arseing about for the sake of it, making useless tin cans and cups and a steam powered shower, nothing like Fred's honest approach. The programmes on renovating the narrow boat "Dover" were IMHO much better. Keith Indeed, Fred had a much more gentle manner when it came to things like this, but Fred also had more knowledge and was always trying to pack in tiny details of how something was done when an overview is what would have been needed. Fred was great, he brought to life for me many things I wouldn't have looked twice at, hopefully Guy will come to do the same for the X factor generation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2012 It was another interesting programme this week - complete with steam - but from a traction engine this time pulling a large plough across a big field to show how this cut the number of agricultural workers who then provided the workforce for the mills. Apart from helping respore a water powered saw mill, Guy built a bike out of wood - showing the wheelwright's craft (the expert with him makes wheels for the Royal carriages) and he also went for a ride on an original wooden bike from a museum - all went well until he approached a cattle grid - he's bound to stop I thought but no - he just carried on over it at some speed and I was really surprised that he didn't wreck it !! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Wasn't most steam ploughing actually done with a pair of engines standing at opposite ends of the field, towing the (reversible) plough back and forth on a cable? Fast, efficient, and fascinating to watch - and it kept the heavy equipment off the tilth! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Wasn't most steam ploughing actually done with a pair of engines standing at opposite ends of the field, towing the (reversible) plough back and forth on a cable? Fast, efficient, and fascinating to watch - and it kept the heavy equipment off the tilth! Correct; I believe that someone had to sit on the plough to do the fine control of the ploughshare. I'll wager he wasn't a Merry Ploughboy for very long..At least one plant-hire firm that was around until recently (Eddison) started out as a ploughing contractor. Traction engines would have been used more for work such as hauling timber. I would have said that the traction/ploughing engines were needed to replace the workers who had left the countryside for the towns, rather than being the cause of their displacement. When the large-scale movement to the towns started at the beginning of the C19th, steam-power was confined to mine and mill engines, along with early railway locos. The country-dwellers had been compelled to leave the countryside after the series of Enclosure Acts had removed their means of subsistence- land-ownership was consolidated into fewer hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 Wasn't most steam ploughing actually done with a pair of engines standing at opposite ends of the field, towing the (reversible) plough back and forth on a cable? Fast, efficient, and fascinating to watch - and it kept the heavy equipment off the tilth! Yes, ploughing engines worked in pairs with the plough moved by a cable between them in exactly the way you describe. I believe there were a pair of ploughing engines demonstrated in preservation back in the 1950s but I haven't seen any at the regular rallies in our part of the country for a long time. Possibly some have appeared at the great Dorset Steam event as that seems to be a regular demonstration show for the various types of working engines. From a quick check on the 'net it seems that ploughing in this manner only really got underway in the 1860s having been developed out of an idea which used a single portable engine and a windlass which was first seen in the 1850s. I somehow don't think the invention of the ploughing engine in the 1860s released agricultural labour for the factories as they really began to be established in the 1770s and one 'net source states there were 250,000 power looms in Britain by 1850 - i.e. at least a decade before reliable power ploughing while also by that date it was estimated that 20% of the British population lived in London. As far as agriculture goes the biggest consumer of arable labour was harvesting until the arrival of the combine harvester and in fact, apart from the perception of factories offering regular employment & wages, the repeal of the Corn Laws probably did more than any other single 19th century factor to drive people out of farm work and into the cities - and that repeal also pre-dated steam ploughing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Boco_D1 Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2012 I thought this was a great show, at least we got to see some railway action unlike Portillo's rather lacking show. There was a few gaffs but nothing to lose sleep over and i'm sure i'll watch the saw mill episode and not spot one mistake because I'm not so knowledgeable on such things. The only one comment I raised my eyebrows at was the implication that the driver needed a watch so that there wouldn't be a head on collision! I don't think anyone will get on a late running train again after hearing that! It would have been nice to see some mention of signalling rather than, not that I didn't enjoy watching, the watch repair or shovel making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 The only one comment I raised my eyebrows at was the implication that the driver needed a watch so that there wouldn't be a head on collision! I don't think anyone will get on a late running train again after hearing that! It would have been nice to see some mention of signalling rather than, not that I didn't enjoy watching, the watch repair or shovel making. Drivers were not issued with watches - they were issued to Guards (who were responsible for the running of the train) although it might well be that some of the privatised operators issue watches to their Drivers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Drivers were not issued with watches - they were issued to Guards (who were responsible for the running of the train) although it might well be that some of the privatised operators issue watches to their Drivers. But in Canada and the US engineers and firemen did indeed have railway-standard watches which they were neither able to wind nor adjust - that was only done by the registered jeweller / watchmaker in the towns along the way. Of course, in train-order territory (and that used to be the rule here in the UK before Lock and Block became the rule) you absolutely have to know the time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, ploughing engines worked in pairs with the plough moved by a cable between them in exactly the way you describe. I believe there were a pair of ploughing engines demonstrated in preservation back in the 1950s but I haven't seen any at the regular rallies in our part of the country for a long time. Possibly some have appeared at the great Dorset Steam event as that seems to be a regular demonstration show for the various types of working engines. From a quick check on the 'net it seems that ploughing in this manner only really got underway in the 1860s having been developed out of an idea which used a single portable engine and a windlass which was first seen in the 1850s. I somehow don't think the invention of the ploughing engine in the 1860s released agricultural labour for the factories as they really began to be established in the 1770s and one 'net source states there were 250,000 power looms in Britain by 1850 - i.e. at least a decade before reliable power ploughing while also by that date it was estimated that 20% of the British population lived in London. As far as agriculture goes the biggest consumer of arable labour was harvesting until the arrival of the combine harvester and in fact, apart from the perception of factories offering regular employment & wages, the repeal of the Corn Laws probably did more than any other single 19th century factor to drive people out of farm work and into the cities - and that repeal also pre-dated steam ploughing. Without the steam plough it's quite arguable that Britain would have starved in the late 19th Century, as it enabled the opening up of the Canadian prairies (the 'last best west') to grain cultivation. What a sight never to be (regularly) seen on earth again - two engines a quarter of a mile apart, almost silent apart from the hooter signals between the crews, the hum of the cables as the plow (!) dips and nods its way across the field, and the sweet scent of the wild thyme! Ah, heaven! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 But in Canada and the US engineers and firemen did indeed have railway-standard watches which they were neither able to wind nor adjust - that was only done by the registered jeweller / watchmaker in the towns along the way. Of course, in train-order territory (and that used to be the rule here in the UK before Lock and Block became the rule) you absolutely have to know the time! Train Order wasn't all that common here but Time Interval was - however the interval wasn't set by Drivers of course and in the case of Train Order that wasn't controlled by Drivers either. The railway company watches always went back to the Railway's clock & watch shop for repair (the GWR's was at Reading) and I think it lasted almost as long as the Signal Works only really being displaced once battery clocks came in. Signalbox clocks were checked daily against a time signal and Guards were supposed to check their watches daily against a railway clock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2012 Just goes to show how one comment can create so many replies - what I should have said was that the programme showed a pair of Ploughing Engines with Guy riding on a four furrow plough. One of the engines was a Fowler built in 1874 named 'The Chief' as illustrated here http://www.steamscen...engine/2528/83/ I don't think the programme showed a close up shot of the other engine. One thing I did remark on was the quality/texture of the soil and the ease with which it was being turned. Later in the programme the same engine was used to uproot a tree that Guy had failed to fell with a large hand saw and later it pulled the main trunk on a trailer to the saw mill. What we didn't see was all the branches being removed and how they loaded the trailer in the field - at a guess chainsaw and JCB !! Mike Edit for spelling (again!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Train Order wasn't all that common here but Time Interval was - however the interval wasn't set by Drivers of course and in the case of Train Order that wasn't controlled by Drivers either. The railway company watches always went back to the Railway's clock & watch shop for repair (the GWR's was at Reading) and I think it lasted almost as long as the Signal Works only really being displaced once battery clocks came in. Signalbox clocks were checked daily against a time signal and Guards were supposed to check their watches daily against a railway clock. And in those cases when Train Orders were used in the UK it's arguable that there was a less disciplined approach than was really needed - hence, for instance, the Radstock and Norwich (Thorpe) accidents, both 'cornfield meets,' which were likely caused by a rather informal approach to the work of Control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 Just to throw a spanner in the works (my speciality!), steam ploughing could be done using one engine, either a light weight engine directly towing a plough or an engine coupled to a winch & a set of rollers, although I can't remember how the latter system worked. But most steam ploughing was done using a pair of engines. Nit picking aside I'm enjoying the shows, and it was good too see some road steam on the box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted October 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 31, 2012 it was good too see some road steam on the box. Am I right in thinking that you need to pass a different test and have the right category of licence to drive a traction engine on the road - Guy seemed to be doing the driving with his friend on board - there appeared to be a third person on the trailer who I assume was supervising - but should he have been driving. They got through the narrow gateway OK - if it had been like the comedy programme 'Classic Car Rescue' from Channel 5 then they would have crashed into the stone pillar, swore a lot and fallen out with each other Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenceb Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Dont know if it is still the case but the law was that there were two people on the footplate, the driver and the steersman. The driver is licenced to drive but his oppo did not need any kind of licence. Laurence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Am I right in thinking that you need to pass a different test and have the right category of licence to drive a traction engine on the road - Guy seemed to be doing the driving with his friend on board - there appeared to be a third person on the trailer who I assume was supervising - but should he have been driving. They got through the narrow gateway OK - if it had been like the comedy programme 'Classic Car Rescue' from Channel 5 then they would have crashed into the stone pillar, swore a lot and fallen out with each other Mike You used to have to have a different category of licence to drive 'road locomotives'- my grandfather, who acquired his licence during WW1, had this on the list of things he was permitted to drive (note that I didn't say 'could drive'...) Road locomotives of various types often stop opposite our house on their way to and from Sellindge, as there's a fire hydrant where they can top up. There are always at least two people on the footplate, one of whom does nothing but steer- the steering system seems to be very slow to react to the wheel being turned. The other seems to fire, wave to passers-by, and offer useful hints to the steersman (a bit like Able-Seaman Goldstein..). I presume this second person would have been called the 'chauffeur', and this would have been the origin of the job-title for the driver of a motor car. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 There are no, so far as I am aware, driving entitlement categories which specifically cover steam powered road vehicles. You appear to be able to drive a traction engine/road locomotive on a category B though, strictly speaking, that limits you to a 3,500 vehicle weight. That anomaly will be resolved next year, 2013, when a category C (HGV) licence will be required. The steersman requires no licence whatsoever, there's no age limit either, though should be accompanied by a qualified driver. So, presumably, Guy Martin holds a car licence and could drive legally. However, road rollers, diesel or steam, require a category G licence entitlement. There are some age limits attached to the various entitlements. That's my understanding, I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I presume this second person would have been called the 'chauffeur', and this would have been the origin of the job-title for the driver of a motor car. You're right in that part of the 'chauffeur's' duties in early motor-vehicles was to 'stoke' or heat up the steam powered vehicles and later the hot ignition tubes for spirit engines. But of course they invariably also maintained and drove the vehicles because those that could afford them were often used to coachmen and wouldn't deign to drive themselves! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2012 There are no, so far as I am aware, driving entitlement categories which specifically cover steam powered road vehicles. You appear to be able to drive a traction engine/road locomotive on a category B though, strictly speaking, that limits you to a 3,500 vehicle weight. That anomaly will be resolved next year, 2013, when a category C (HGV) licence will be required. The steersman requires no licence whatsoever, there's no age limit either, though should be accompanied by a qualified driver. So, presumably, Guy Martin holds a car licence and could drive legally. However, road rollers, diesel or steam, require a category G licence entitlement. There are some age limits attached to the various entitlements. That's my understanding, I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong. The one thing which might impose an age limit is the insurance company. At one of the regular rallies near us they invite those who want to have a go at steering to get onto the parade ground and do exactly that and there is a minimum age stipulated (it's either 16 or 14 - I think the former). Similarly the nearest miniature live steam railway to us also has an insurance condition which prohibits Drivers under the age of 18 and invalidates the insurance cover if anything untoward happens if someone under 18 is driving (and yes, the society concerned have argued about it as it has prevented them from developing younger Drivers - several of whom were perfectly competent, with no problems at all, before the insurance condition was imposed). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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