Bob Reid Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I know I've been away from the railway too long when I've absolutely no idea what the bottom of the three signs shown here means. Can anyone enlighten me what a remote platform starting signal is and who would operate it? It's at Stonehaven (where else)! Signal SV8 is the one in the foreground just off the platform and nowt else unusual except perhaps for the station being on a fair curve and with an unmanned box on a Sunday (hence all the signals are off). By the power of Google! I found this (part) explanation http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect21page4/sect21page4.html though I'm still not sure of the point really! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 There is an inherent danger in having a passenger train still partly in the platform after station duties have been completed - although much less so since power doors became the norm. So signals with a short distance between them are treated as here. As I read it, Right-away will not be given until both signals are cleared for departure. Non-passenger trains offer no problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 It makes me wonder just how 'remote' is 'remote' in the eyes of the noticeboard mafiosa. Reading SDL's explanation on his website makes perfect (although fairly useless in some respects) sense but when you look at the Stonehaven situation the signal is only 'remote' by the length of the platform ramp plus a few feet (clue - the number on the notice is the same as the number on that signal). So in reality the standard Rule applies as the signal is readily visible from the platform and the Guard or whoever shouldn't give RA if that signal is at danger. If there is a risk of a train still having a portion in the platform if it only gets as far as the next signal in advance the answer is not a notice to Drivers & Guards etc but a Signalbox Special Instruction not to allow trains which have stopped at the platform forward to the second of those signals. And Instructions of that nature are but a minor variation on the use of a Rule which has been in the book since before a certain Archduke was assassinated in Sarajevo nearly 100 years ago. So to me it really does look like a notice for the sake of a notice, or a total misunderstanding of the Rule Book, or a basic failure to link the Rule to the position of the signal, or sheer ignorance of railway operation (or any combination of the four). Nice to know that NR has got the cash to waste on such naivety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Thanks Ian & Mike. I did wonder about the validity of it with such a short distance from the stop marker to signal SV8. It wouldn't be an issue to do with the signal ahead of it and it's use in conjunction with SV8 would it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 Thanks Ian & Mike. I did wonder about the validity of it with such a short distance from the stop marker to signal SV8. It wouldn't be an issue to do with the signal ahead of it and it's use in conjunction with SV8 would it? Not as I see Bob - but I look at it in the context of the Rules applicable to the working of Stop Signals and I wonder if they were not taken into account by whoever decided to put that sign at Stonehaven? I can think of one train which would probably still be partially on the platform if stopped at the signal in advance but that could easily be dealt with by instructing the Signalman to hold stopping trains at SV 8 (the one at the platform end) until he could clear both signals - Instructions like that (for other reasons) have been around for very many years and have rarely met enforcement problems in my experience so on a Risk Assessment would easily stand up in court so to speak. In fact thinking further about it I've an idea that such an Instruction might even have been used in exactly this context in the past, albeit not that I know of in Scotland. Looking at SDL's item again one thing which is noticeable is the date he gives for these signs. That was about the time when all Zones were conducting SPAD risk evaluations (not necessarily full Risk Assessments) on platform end signals and signals close to platform ends and as I did the Great Western Zone I've had a quick look back to see if I've got any info on the remit that the Zones were given which I expect included something about signals visible from platforms. I don't seem to have any electronic records and all my paper stuff is 'well filed away' (probably up in the roof). However from what I can recall of the work I did, and on the spreadsheet which the Zone gave me to work from, the only signals to be taken into account were those on the platform itself or those which were the first one a train would reach after leaving the platform if it was visible from the platform - i.e. in this case SV8 at the bottom of the ramp. It is of course quite possible that Scotland interpreted things in a different way (they usually often did) and it's equally possible that whoever ran the SPAD project/did the evaluation work in Scotland would not have been familiar with Rules regarding the working of semaphore signals. The only Scottish stuff I have on electronic file from that period is about proposals and plans for new stations and train services for which I did some work in the vicinity of Stirling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I don't think it has anything to do with SPAD risk as such, it is just saying that if the signal is on when the train is ready to start from the station, the driver should leave the train where it is and phone the number provided rather than drawing up to the signal. There is a separate hazard if the first signal beyond the platform is not visible from the platform end, because the driver may have forgotted previous cautionary aspects, accelerate away normally and then be going to fast to stop at the signal when it comes into view. In this situation a triangular "traffic light" sign is often/always provided, though it's not much help in telling the driver the aspect of the previous signal! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 I don't think it has anything to do with SPAD risk as such, it is just saying that if the signal is on when the train is ready to start from the station, the driver should leave the train where it is and phone the number provided rather than drawing up to the signal. But that is not what the Rule Book says - he should not be given the signal (by the Guard or platform staff) to start the train if the signal at the platform end/visible from the platform is at danger (a 'ding-ding & away' as such SPADs are known), so he won't even know if the train is ready to start unless somebody comes and tells him. Overall it still strikes me as a confusing way of dealing with things for which the Rule Book has for long allowed proper provision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 ive been looking at the picture and trying to get my head around it, what i'm seeing is a sign for the sake of a sign! as someone at the pointy end as far as im concerned that is a platform starter signal and if its on you dont move, indeed if the guard gave me 2 to go i would be having stern words with him, from a drivers point of view had i entered the station with that signal on then i would have recieved an AWS warning horn at the distant signal which would be showing a yellow proceed aspect which to me means "treat all associated stop signals as being at danger" therefore (as a passenger train) my DRA would be on in the platform, so even if signal 8 was pulled off prior to my arrival i would still be treating the signal in the distance (which i assume is the section signal) as being at danger if i could not see it (ie darkness, fog etc), wonder if the station has OFF indicators for the benefit of the guard? if anything the sign is misleading and in my opinion a far more useful sign would be placed either on signal 8s post or just beyond advising the driver "CHECK AWS" for moving towards the section signal which could still be at danger if you entered the AB section under caution. we have them in colour light areas, cradley heath for example, i regularly enter there under caution and the red is so far away that you can be doing the 60mph line speed when you hit the magnet, indeed it has been Spadded many years back at that speed while a unit was setting back into lye following a station overrun!! i can see edwins point about not moving forward and to contact the box from where the train is stood in the platform so why not keep it simple and just put a sign up with the box number on or indeed a phone at the stop board? regards mikes comment about not getting the ready to go if the signal in view is at danger i can certainly think of one place where that rule doesn't apply, (will have to check if its an official local instruction in the sectional appendix though), navigation road between altringham and stockport is a single bi-di platform (the old manchester platform is ow metrolink) and it has a signal in view of the platform protecting the crossing at deansgate jn, probably 6 coach lengths away, if that signal was on we would get 6 on the buzzer (draw forward), thus ensuring the train left the station on time and the driver on recieving 6 would be reminded the signal was still on (as it was such an unusual code to get!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 .......if anything the sign is misleading and in my opinion a far more useful sign would be placed either on signal 8s post or just beyond advising the driver "CHECK AWS" for moving towards the section signal which could still be at danger if you entered the AB section under caution. we have them in colour light areas, cradley heath for example, i regularly enter there under caution and the red is so far away that you can be doing the 60mph line speed when you hit the magnet, indeed it has been Spadded many years back at that speed while a unit was setting back into lye following a station overrun!! i can see edwins point about not moving forward and to contact the box from where the train is stood in the platform so why not keep it simple and just put a sign up with the box number on or indeed a phone at the stop board? Don't know if it's misleading Jim, according to the details of the signs linked to above what you describe as not moving forward when the signals against you and contacting the box (via the the number on the sign) is what it describes. perhaps as Mike says it's not really required. Don't know for certain, but the sighting of that signal by the train manager on the HST sets certainly looks difficult and there are certainly no "Off" indicators. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 Perhaps misleading isn't the word i was after, not required is indeed more appropriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Trivial point, but the sign seems to refer to "5V 8" rather than SV 8. Dyce has similar warning signs. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2012 Trivial point, but the sign seems to refer to "5V 8" rather than SV 8. Looks to be SV8 to me, although the S has a smudge of muck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 As you say Dave, just a bit of muck (and my amateurish attempt to clean up the sign) here's a slightly better view Interestingly the opposite (Down) side signal SV17 doesn't have a similar notice associated with it, Mind you, when the box is open you could virtually shout at the signalman... Not sure if it's of any help but this link http://tillyweb.biz/.../stonehaven.htm shows a photo of the box diagram (and the amount of redundant levers) thhough traffic is a bit lighter these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2012 Don't know if it's misleading Jim, according to the details of the signs linked to above what you describe as not moving forward when the signals against you and contacting the box (via the the number on the sign) is what it describes. perhaps as Mike says it's not really required. Don't know for certain, but the sighting of that signal by the train manager on the HST sets certainly looks difficult and there are certainly no "Off" indicators. There is poor sighting on that platform due to the curvature so i doubt the Guard/Train Manger etc can see the signal. But in the case the appropriate sign is a reminder to Drivers to check the signal before starting away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Meant to add this photo Mike. SV8 isn't too bad but nigh on impossible to see from the van or the nearest door that the bulk of the pasengers get on from. They usually sight the signal at the furthest side of the platform. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2012 looking at that picture i'm suprised there is no OFF indicator for the guard, or indeed a similar (guard orientated) sign to the one at the other end of the platform looking at the voyager picture there are a couple of other signs i cant quite make out, the first is the H on what looks like a TSR pole and the second is in the midle distance above the "passengers must not cross the line" sign, looks to be something like a car stop board, maybe saying HST 1 or something, any ideas what they are? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajwffc Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 looking at that picture i'm suprised there is no OFF indicator for the guard, or indeed a similar (guard orientated) sign to the one at the other end of the platform looking at the voyager picture there are a couple of other signs i cant quite make out, the first is the H on what looks like a TSR pole and the second is in the midle distance above the "passengers must not cross the line" sign, looks to be something like a car stop board, maybe saying HST 1 or something, any ideas what they are? Think it is a HST stop marker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 looking at that picture i'm suprised there is no OFF indicator for the guard, or indeed a similar (guard orientated) sign to the one at the other end of the platform looking at the voyager picture there are a couple of other signs i cant quite make out, the first is the H on what looks like a TSR pole and the second is in the midle distance above the "passengers must not cross the line" sign, looks to be something like a car stop board, maybe saying HST 1 or something, any ideas what they are? The one visible above the 'Passengers Must Not ... etc' sign definitely looks like an HST stop marker board. I haven't got a clue what the one with the 'H' means - could possibly be a stop market for shorter HSTs or a marker for the sleeper which is a Hauled train? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2012 Is this sign "in case" the train has passed the board (which is put back then) and reminds the Guard (or whoever) that they are working to the next signal down the line? Im totally not familiar with what may go off Up in Scotland though...... I hope that they comply with the Rule Book and don't return a signal to danger until the whole of a passenger train has passed it (plus the board is at the Driver's end of the platform). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Phone number could relate to GSM-R. On non tcb lines gsmr works by cell location, if train is in an area and driver calls signaller may be diverted to the wrong one. On TCB lines system uses occupancy so knows where to direct calls. Hope I've simplified explanation? Easier to tell than write. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2012 Phone number could relate to GSM-R. On non tcb lines gsmr works by cell location, if train is in an area and driver calls signaller may be diverted to the wrong one. On TCB lines system uses occupancy so knows where to direct calls. Hope I've simplified explanation? Easier to tell than write. The 'phone number is surely an ordinary ETD number? (these signs were erected 10 years ago) And in fact - remarkably to my old-fashioned way of thinking - a quick google on the internet reveals that it is not the GSM/GZAC number for Stonehaven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 31, 2012 The 'phone number is surely an ordinary ETD number? (these signs were erected 10 years ago) thats an NRN number on the sign, you can use a normal phone if you add a certain prefix to the start of the number Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 GSM-R is the digital version of NRN although not in use in all areas yet. You can call etd from nrn just the same, at least gsm-r doesn't erquire the ptt except for emergency calls. Not seen the phone number in relation to a "Signal Ahead" warning board, at leasat not on the Western region where I am familiar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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