RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 The difference in rainstrips on the K42s could be down to could be different Lots. Might be a good idea to match up observations to Lots and see if there's any pattern. Though perhaps not as noticable as the different style of rainstrips, the windows on the K41 are set higher and are less tall than those on the K42 (matching the high-waisted 1934 style corridor stock). According to Harris, the last K41s were withdrawn from normal service in 1974, however the Fison's weedkiller train included coaches from diagrams K41, K42 & K44, so they were around in some kind of use just as long. Comming back to the rainstrips I have done as you suggested. With the pictures I have and Karhedron's pic of 124 above, I believe the following is shown. LOT1604 of 1937: 166 in as built condition (all over GWR brown) with continuous rainstrip 164 in BR crimson and cream without rainstrip 159 in BR lined maroon (1964) without rainstrip LOT1652 of 1940 124 in as built condition (all over GWR brown) without rainstrip 130 in final GWR choc and cream but with BR(W) numbering without rainstrip LOT1665 of 1945 95 in final GWR choc and cream (1948) without rainstrip 98 in BR crimson and cream without rainstrip So it could be infered that only the first batch had the continuous rainstrip but that it was removed in service. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 So it could be infered that only the first batch had the continuous rainstrip but that it was removed in service. Hi Taz, Nice piece of detective work and it certainly fits the observed photos. If this is the case it means that it might be best to leave out lot 1604 and model the K42s without the rainstrip as it covers the majority of the vehicles for the majority of their working lives. The only downside with this is that it pushes back the effective introduction date from 1937 to 1940 making them unsuitable for pre-war layouts. I model post-war so this is not a problem for me but it might be a dilema for others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 So, it's basically another plus point for going with the K41 for the NGS model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hello Ben Although I can't help with liveries, If it is any use to you, I have a number of copies of WR Through Carriage Working Programmes from which I could let you have relevant pages where K42 vans are specifically mentioned by number (address below). By way of example from the Winter 1958-1959 book, I have extracted the following (but please bear in mind that these are ‘quick notes’ and not ‘the full story’. The copy I have is an ‘office copy’ which seems to have been kept up-to-date with amendments – however, I can’t guarantee that these vehicles ran in these trains. They are often shown as alternatives to other vehicles. Nos.91, 160, 269: 12.30am News Paddington-Penzance (as far as Paignton, Newton Abbot, Taunton) No.270: 5.05am Pcls Paddington-Bristol No.122: 2.21pm Pcls Paddington-Plymouth & 4.15pm Plymouth-Paddington No.125: 8.50pm Greenford-Birkenhead (from Hayes to Chester) No.92: 4.01am Crewe-Bristol (from Leeds to Penzance) No.162: 1.55pm Crewe-Hereford (from Crewe to Basingstoke) It may interest you to know that the K42 was the top-voted item of 00 GWR NPCCS stock in the MREmag & RMweb Wishlist Poll 2012; in the N Poll, it was second in that category (just behind the Fruit C). The K41 wasn't listed. Brian Macdermott brianmacdermott(at)hotmail(dot)com 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I believe one or two K40s made it into the early 50s in hybrid brown livery but with BR(WR) style lettering. Not sure about any K41/42s. As always, the difficulty is proving it from a period when most photographers preffered to shoot express engines rather than "waste" the film on humble brake vehicles. Swindon took works shots of vehicles including that of 124 above. Does anyone know if this was done for every vehicle constructed or was it just certain specimen examples? Does an archive of these works shots survive anywhere as it would certainly answer some questions. Specimen vehicles only based on lot numbers photographing at least one from each lot, or vehicles of special interest to the PR unit. Not always what they appear. Swindon had their own version of photoshop using a knife and paintbrush. If they did not have a pic of what they wanted -find the nearest and change the number! The entire GWR archive still exists - it was managed by OPC for many years, where joe public could purchase a copy of any shot, also allowing OPC to produce all the Russell coach/loco,wagon books using images from stock. Mike Wiltshire 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 I have to admit that I didn't do any thorough research when I built my Comet K42 but I will when I build another. Mine is numbered 275 from the 1945 batch and should be correct in the Hawksworth livery.Can someone confirm please. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/23370-comet-k42-full-brake/ The next one will be in the all over brown livery that suits these vehicles well.Nice to hear they did well in the last poll. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) Some brandings K41 no 107 Centre panel 'CARDIFF PLYMOUTH AND WEYMOUTH'. To right of guards door 'PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN' K42 no 159 Centre panel 'PADDINGTON AND BANBURY'. To right of guards door 'PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN' Mike Wiltshire Edited November 8, 2012 by Coach bogie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have to admit that I didn't do any thorough research when I built my Comet K42 but I will when I build another. Mine is numbered 275 from the 1945 batch and should be correct in the Hawksworth livery.Can someone confirm please. http://www.rmweb.co....k42-full-brake/ The next one will be in the all over brown livery that suits these vehicles well.Nice to hear they did well in the last poll. Robin, There is pictorial evidence of some of the last batch in choc & cream so your current model is completely plausable (and very nice it is as well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have to admit that I didn't do any thorough research when I built my Comet K42 but I will when I build another. Mine is numbered 275 from the 1945 batch and should be correct in the Hawksworth livery.Can someone confirm please. That is the correct livery for vehicles completed around this time. However the only photos I have seen of vehicles from this batch are in preservation. Hopefully somewhere along the line we will find some more definitive photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have contacted the Great Western Trust, Steam musuem in Swindon and Ian Allen (who bought OPC some years ago). Hopefully they may have some images of K41s/2s that will be useful in this project. Ideally we would like a range of shots like the one I found of 124. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2012 Hello again Ben Further to my earlier posting, I have a b&w photo showing W159W in lined maroon (with electrification flashes). It is HMRS Ref:AEL703. The vehicle is branded: PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN and DORRINGTON AND KENSINGTON. A colour photo of just the first few feet of W112W appears on page 71 of the book Working Steam - Collett & Hawksworth Halls. This is also lined maroon. The photo is by RC Riley, whose photos are held by Transport Treasury - it might be that the image has been cropped for publication, and that an actual print may show up more. Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2012 Hello Ben and Matt I have just checked HMRS records, and they have a 1947 shot of No.273 at Ref:AEL332. There is no image to say whether this would be of any use, but the details qualify the photo as 'good'. Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 9, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2012 Hello all, This is really helpful, and I am copying notes of specific liveries mentioned in all the postings and collating them. I am also hoping to source some drawings, probably via the NRM. Many thanks to all who've contributed. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have just checked HMRS records, and they have a 1947 shot of No.273 at Ref:AEL332. There is no image to say whether this would be of any use, but the details qualify the photo as 'good'. Sounds promising. Based on the date 273 should be painted in postwar Hawksworth livery. It is only 50p for a digital copy so may be worth a punt. I don't mind splashing out on a bit of research material. I guess we need to decide which diagram is being produced. Or does that depend on the evidence we are able to collate? Where is the "chicken and egg" smiley? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have finally got round to digging out part 2 of Russell which has some good photos of both K41s and K42s. K41 W195 in 1949 painted in hybrid GWR/BR livery. Branded "Paddington & Penzance and Paddington & Chester" 147 in 1945 in post-war Hawksworth livery. Branded "Swindon and Carmarthen" K42 124 as pictured previously plain chocolate with shirtbutton emblem 166 in same plain chocolate with shirtbutton emblem. Branded "To work 8.55 PM Paddington to Cardiff 1.48 PM Cardiff to Paddington" (looks nice but might be a bit route-specific ) 95 in post-war Hawksworth livery. No branding. W164 in crimson and cream. Branded "Return to Paddington" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2012 Hello Ben and Matt I hope to have a little more info later, but this may be something to go on for the moment. You may notice that I and another correspondent (posting 32) show W159W as having different destination brandings. The HMRS pic I have gives the year as 1963. A colour pic of W159W with 'BANBURY' dated 1964 can be found on page 28 of Great Western Coaches in Colour (Kevin Robertson, Noodle Books). That page also shows a colour pic of K41 W107W. Discussion with a friend who has some knowledge of GWR/WR rolling stock suggests that K42 was more likely for milk trains. Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Discussion with a friend who has some knowledge of GWR/WR rolling stock suggests that K42 was more likely for milk trains. Most of the Collett-era full-brake diagrams turned up on milk trains fairly frequently in BR days (possibly apart from the K38s). One regular was K41 W142 which was branded for the Penzance to Kensington milk train in the early 1950s (as was K40 W55). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2012 Hello Matt Slightly off topic for k41/K42, but the K40 you mention above (W55W) appears in HMRS photo Ref:AEL700. Brian Macdermott 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Slightly off topic for k41/K42, but the K40 you mention above (W55W) appears in HMRS photo Ref:AEL700. 1963, probably in Maroon by then (shame they don't have a thumbnail). There is a photo of it in 1953 on the cover of "Great Western Steam in Cornwall". It wears the same hybrid GWR/BR livery as K41 W195 in Russel. http://www.transportstore.com/images/content/books/large/4457/P8190025.JPG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted November 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2012 Hello Matt I have the HMRS photo and it is lined maroon (1963). Brian Macdermott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted November 10, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2012 Most of the Collett-era full-brake diagrams turned up on milk trains fairly frequently in BR days (possibly apart from the K38s). One regular was K41 W142 which was branded for the Penzance to Kensington milk train in the early 1950s (as was K40 W55). Hi Matt Was this in Crimson and Cream livery, or still in GW? Was the lettering on cream band, in which case what colour was it? The lettered coaches I have so far are in plain chocolate or in lined maroon, in which case the lettering appears to be gold or yellow. cheers Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Was this in Crimson and Cream livery, or still in GW? Was the lettering on cream band, in which case what colour was it? The lettered coaches I have so far are in plain chocolate or in lined maroon, in which case the lettering appears to be gold or yellow. Hi Ben, In both Chocolate & Cream and Crimson & Cream liveries, the branding was applied to the cream band between the windows. In both cases the lettering is in "old gold" shaded with black. It is worth noting that the shading shows up more than the lettering. The lettering on the plain chocolate examples should also be shaded with black although this is less obvious against the dark background. It is worth noting that there seems to have been a clear change in font between the "shirtbutton" examples and the post-war ones. The branding applied to the crimson and cream vehicles seems to be a in avery similar font tot he post-war GWR liveried examples (it might even be the same font). It looks like Gill Sans but I am not certain ofthis. Whilst using preserved vehicles as a guide is always risky, I think that lettering on preserved K42 98 looks accurate. It is worth noting the single lining at waist height. Based on the photos in Russell, this looks to be accurate for the post-war batch of K42s. Unlike the K41s which seem to have received full double-lining. http://www.flickr.co...ol-1222554@N20/ Another interesting vehicle in Harris is W130 which is another example to receive GWR/BR hybrid livery. The photograph does not show any sign of branding but the caption states it was branded "Return to Swindon". Swindon seem to have painted several full brakes in this hybrid livery in 1948/early49. Clearly trying to give chocolate and cream a bit of a swansong before the new corporate livery was introduced. Regards, Matt Edited November 10, 2012 by Karhedron 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2012 Heres my poor photo of K42 No.98 taken at Kidderminster.The later blue photo was taken by Barry Dunkley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Just a note, I am pretty sure 98 would not have had a white roof, even when new. It would always have been grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Just a note, I am pretty sure 98 would not have had a white roof, even when new. It would always have been grey. I agree. The first three batches of K41's were built towards the end of the period when white was the norm, but K42 no 98 was a 1945 build where grey was adopted, though it soon became black. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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