Dukedog to Duke: a feasible proposition?

[buffalo]

Don't forget Tre Pol and Pen the prototype of the Dukedogs had different sized bogies wheels to the rest.

Don

Back in February we discussed this in a topic about the forthcoming Bachmann Dukedog. Whilst there is certainly some evidence for the 3'2" wheels on Tre Pol & Pen in the form of the A40 weight diagram reproduced in Russell, some of us were inclined to suspect the veracity of this claim and, given the lack of any supporting photos, to suspect that it might be no more than a frequently repeated myth.

 

Nick

[Castle]

I'm still trying to work out how to turn the pencil in the lathe with your nose attached

 

You simply mount yourself in the lathe and get an assistant to turn the dials...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Donw]

Thank you Nick I had not heard that. Perhaps confusion aross because the Duke wheels may had thinner tyres originally I think they changed about 1890 but possibly no one amended the drawing. I have a couple of Dukes to build ( a Finney and a Dave Andrews) so I shall have to mug up on them.

Don

[Guest jonte]

The proprietor of the kit manufacturer I approached has replied to say he is unable to help.

 

I suppose I would have to resort to forming a boiler from annealed brass or just use brass tube of an appropriate diameter if this project is to become a goer. But what would I do for a smoke box door and bolier?

 

Perhaps these could be plundered from the City of Truro kit and reduced to a suitable size?

 

Jonte

 

PS.....does anybody else think that the Bulldog (in its cone shaped boiler guise) looks remarkably like the 3700 class (City of Truro)?

[Mikkel]

Hi Jonte, this sounds like an interesting project.

 

I am not sure if the Dapol CoT boiler-fittings will do you much good as they are moulded as part of the body (apart from the smokebox door, but keep in mind that the parts are getting on in age a bit and are fairly thick). I see you've checked a kit out already, but perhaps the photos in this (never-completed) build thread are of use: http://www.newrailwa...hp?f=6&p=423121

 

Depending on what prototype you end up choosing, Alan Gibson may have some of the boiler fittings you need: http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

 

- and 247 developments may have a smokebox door (and backhead) if you need one: http://247developmen..._detailing.html

[Guest Belgian]

Hi again, Castle and thanks for the prompt reply.

 

Plenty to mull over there, although all do-able sounding suggestions. I'll check out the 56XX of which you make mention and shall be interested to see if there any helpful responses with regard to sourcing suitable replacement parts as you describe from a manufacturer or two. The prospect of changing a boiler/firebox/smokebox combo sounds a little less daunting than trying to hack into that beautiful frame, to say nothing of getting those flares and their reverse flares right (times four!!).

 

Thanks once again, Castle, for your invaluable help.

 

Jonte

If you are prepared to go for a slightly later period (ie, once the boilers had settled down and were fitted with top feed) may I suggest that the Collett 'Baby Castle' class 2251 0-6-0 rather than a 56xx. It has an almost complete boiler/firebox assembly which might act as a short cut: I believe it was a Standard no. 2.

 

JE

[Guest jonte]

Hi Jonte, this sounds like an interesting project.

 

I am not sure if the Dapol CoT boiler-fittings will do you much good as they are moulded as part of the body (apart from the smokebox door, but keep in mind that the parts are getting on in age a bit and are fairly thick). I see you've checked a kit out already, but perhaps the photos in this (never-completed) build thread are of use: http://www.newrailwa...hp?f=6&p=423121

 

Depending on what prototype you end up choosing, Alan Gibson may have some of the boiler fittings you need: http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/

 

- and 247 developments may have a smokebox door (and backhead) if you need one: http://247developmen..._detailing.html

 

Always a pleasure to hear from you, Mikkel, with your kind words of encouragement and ever willingness to help.

I shall enjoy poring over your links presently.

Perhaps this notion isn't dead in the water quite yet!

 

Best wishes,

Jonte

 

PS....Have been trawling the 'net for suitable examples of old GWR timetables with which to furnish my 'Tiny Sign' type poster boards, and enjoyed reading the relevant section: 'signs, posters etc.' on The Farthing layouts. Think I've found several suitable candidates. Jonte.

[Guest jonte]

If you are prepared to go for a slightly later period (ie, once the boilers had settled down and were fitted with top feed) may I suggest that the Collett 'Baby Castle' class 2251 0-6-0 rather than a 56xx. It has an almost complete boiler/firebox assembly which might act as a short cut: I believe it was a Standard no. 2.

 

JE

 

That's really useful, Belgian (JE), thank you. Edwardian is principally what I'm after, however, beggars cannot be choosers as the saying goes so this might be a viable option (although I still intend to paint it Indian Red!!)

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[The Fatadder]

 

If you are prepared to go for a slightly later period (ie, once the boilers had settled down and were fitted with top feed) may I suggest that the Collett 'Baby Castle' class 2251 0-6-0 rather than a 56xx. It has an almost complete boiler/firebox assembly which might act as a short cut: I believe it was a Standard no. 2.

 

JE

 

Now my interest has been caught....

 

I could do with a post war bulldog, and had been looking at the kit options

 

The idea of matching a 2251 boiler with the earl frames sounds very tempting if the end result is going to be accurate....

[buffalo]

A quick look at drawings and photos in Russell suggests a few problems with using 2251 parts. Yes, it's a similar boiler but the cladding on the 2251s is a full cone shape from the firebox to smokebox, whereas on the earlier Bulldogs the cladding usually followed the short or long cone shape of the actual boiler. The other fairly obvious difference is that the Bulldog firebox is much longer.

 

Nick

[Donw]

Somehow I think that scratch building a body onto the Earl chassis using Chimney, Domes etc from various suppliers is the only way to get a reasonably accurate result anything else will be a bit of a fudge. Mind you there was quite a hotch potch of 2-4-0s and 4-4-0s around the turn of the century that a lot of us would be hard pressed to say that a Dukedog in early livery with Indian Red frames wasn't one of the Dean/Churchward hybrids and you can tell the experts that it is standing in for the Duke/Bulldog/Bird that you will build in due course. If you adopt this course it would be nice to replace the dome with a brass one.

Don

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

I am currently without my reference materials but what if you were to take a Dean Goods boiler & cab and do unto it the modifications that Stefan has in his 'backdating a Dean Goods' thread? Does this get us any closer Buffalo? They seem to be within inches in most directions which is probably within the 'fooling the eye' range required for 4mm scale.

 

Dean Goods: Standard P Boiler Front Dia. 4'4" Rear Dia. 4'5" Length 10'3" Firebox Length 5'4"

 

Duke: Standard N Boiler Front Dia. 4'4" Rear Dia. 4'5" Length 11' Firebox Length 5'10"

 

Data from here:

 

http://www.champwilde.f9.co.uk/gwdrawings/gwrstandardboilers.html

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[buffalo]

Hi Castle,

 

Are you getting confused here? The Bachmann Dukedog already has the upper parts of a Duke but would need curved frames and other minor changes to complete the picture. Whilst the Dean Goods might provide a parallel boiler for an early straight frame Bulldog, the dome would need to be removed and the hole filled. The Belpaire firebox would be too short (the one on the Bulldog is about 6'6" long) and would need to be raised relative to the boiler. The Bulldog smokebox is also much longer, about 5', and is a drumhead type resting on a curved saddle. The Duke and Dean Goods both have the earlier Dean style full wrapper.

 

Nick

[Guest jonte]

Are you getting confused here?

 

I have to admit, fellow contributors, that I'm beginning to.

 

Let's try and summarise:

 

I think we're all agreed (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Bachmann's eagerly awaited 'Dukedog/Earl' lends itself more to conversion to a 'Bulldog' than a Duke if we want to preserve the chassis - ALL 'Dukes' had flared or curved frames, the Bulldog had straight frames as per Earl.

 

The Bulldog, in it's earliest straight frame form (which is what I'm after), can be built with a parallel (straight formed without the more challenging tapering/coning of other variants) boiler that was classed as a 'Parallel Dean/Churchward No.2'.

For reasons already given, none is available that could easily be transplanted from a RTR donor nor is there a manufacturer willing to split an etched kit.

The only option, therefore, is to scratchbuild using a brass/nickel silver/copper tube of an appropriate diameter, or to fold one up from an annealed sheet of brass. In both cases, a smokebox wrapper would have to be cut and formed from annealed brass, which I don't think would be too difficult as it could be formed around then sweated onto the boiler (for those like me who are a little apprehensive about taking that first step into that seemingly foreboding world of scratchbuilding and who may be unfamiliar with terms such as 'annealing' or 'sweating', take a butcher's at my blog http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/766/entry-10137-liverpool-cheapside-gwr-circa-1906-an-exercise-in-soldering/ where you will find a rather hamfisted account of each term mentioned and an even poorer e.g.!!) . Thus, a scaled drawing of the Bulldog variant or dimensions of a No.2 boiler would be required- can anyone help please?

In addendum, for ease of sticking everything together, perhaps tubing is available in plastic so that even the wrapper can be formed from plasticard?

 

A 'Belpaire' firebox is required: could this be purloined from the Dapol City kit and heightened/lengthened etc.?

This could then be fixed to the metal boiler with 'two-part' epoxy resin/ car body filler/ modelling filler/ putty/ any other?

 

A smoke box door is required: again, could this be pinched from the Dapol kit and reduced/fabricated to fit; or could anybody identify a suitable part from a supplier, please?

 

The carrier (is this the bracket that supports the boiler above the footplate?) could this also be used from the Dapol kit? If not, shouldn't be too difficult to fabricate from annealed brass but a scaled diagram would be needed for dimensions including the right radius to bend it to.

 

Chimney: Please could somebody identify the appropriate one from a small part supplier please?

 

Dome or domeless? Could we possibly establish which part and from where is required please? If dimensions are provided, I can interrogate the net or whatever and see if I can find it, then post on here for info. of any interested parties.

 

Springs above footplate: From what I can gather, all these GWR O/S framed 4-4-0s had springs above the footplate and similarly arranged. These could be reused from the Earl or, again, use the ones supplied in the Dapol City kit?

 

Cab: It would appear that the earlier variant of the Bulldog class sported a narrower cab to that of the Dukedog/Earls, so this would have to be scratchbuilt from plasticard in similar fashion to knobhead's previous projects using Tamiya white putty. Perhaps the cab of the Earl, provided it is carefully removed, could be foreshortened? Again, a scale drawing would be most helpful.

 

Backhead fittings: I should imagine they're available from the trade: any suggestions please?

 

Brass name and number plates: Again, should be available from the trade.

 

Paint and linings: I think knobhead has listed these on his 'Lord of the Isles' project http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60625-triang-lord-of-the-isles/

 

Not sure about the tender being suitable: possibly back dating by removal of the top sections and replacing with coal rails? In some of the accounts I've seen, mention was made of a lighter 2500g Churchward tender. I note that one is available - minus wheels - from Martin Finney for approx. forty quid or so.

 

I think that's about it, folks, but please feel free to add/delete at leisure (oh, and please forgive my obvious ignorance of such revered matters. I sincerely hope and trust that I haven't insulted any experienced modellers or GWR enthusiasts along the way).

 

Your valuable help and advice is required and appreciated.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

[buffalo]

...I think we're all agreed (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Bachmann's eagerly awaited 'Dukedog/Earl' lends itself more to conversion to a 'Bulldog' than a Duke if we want to preserve the chassis - ALL 'Dukes' had flared or curved frames, the Bulldog had straight frames as per Earl.

Yes, except that Bulldogs were built with three types of frames, curved, straight and deep straight. It's the middle group we are interested in here.

 

Thus, a scaled drawing of the Bulldog variant or dimensions of a No.2 boiler would be required- can anyone help please?

I'll send you a PM later.

 

A 'Belpaire' firebox is required: could this be purloined from the Dapol City kit and heightened/lengthened etc.?

If it is the correct scale size, it should be long enough.

 

A smoke box door is required: again, could this be pinched from the Dapol kit and reduced/fabricated to fit;

Probably...

 

The carrier (is this the bracket that supports the boiler above the footplate?) could this also be used from the Dapol kit? If not, shouldn't be too difficult to fabricate from annealed brass but a scaled diagram would be needed for dimensions including the right radius to bend it to.

The saddle? yes, again the kit may either give you something to adapt...

 

Dome or domeless?

No dome on No 2 boilers of any type (except the first prototype).

 

Springs above footplate: From what I can gather, all these GWR O/S framed 4-4-0s had springs above the footplate and similarly arranged. These could be reused from the Earl or, again, use the ones supplied in the Dapol City kit?

 

Cab: It would appear that the earlier variant of the Bulldog class sported a narrower cab to that of the Dukedog/Earls, so this would have to be scratchbuilt from plasticard...

Springs, yes, similar but may need to check dimensions.

Bulldog cabs were wide and, like the Dukedog, they enclosed the rear part of the springs. Maybe scratchbuild or check the Dapol kit again which will be very similar.

 

Nick

[buffalo]

ps. forgot the tender...

...Not sure about the tender being suitable: possibly back dating by removal of the top sections and replacing with coal rails? In some of the accounts I've seen, mention was made of a lighter 2500g Churchward tender. I note that one is available - minus wheels - from Martin Finney for approx. forty quid or so...

It looks like most Bulldogs had modernised late Dean or early Churchward 3000 gallon tenders. These had side plates, NOT coal rails. Yes, there is a Finney kit and very fine it is. However, the Dapol kit should have a similar 3000 or 3500 gallon type. There are many detail variations around this time, but I've seen photos of Bulldogs with different types. I suspect the Bachmann one will be a later type with longer side plates, transverse vacuum cylinder, etc.

 

Nick

[Guest jonte]

Yes, except that Bulldogs were built with three types of frames, curved, straight and deep straight. It's the middle group we are interested in here.

 

 

I'll send you a PM later.

 

 

If it is the correct scale size, it should be long enough.

 

 

Probably...

 

 

The saddle? yes, again the kit may either give you something to adapt...

 

 

No dome on No 2 boilers of any type (except the first prototype).

 

 

Springs, yes, similar but may need to check dimensions.

Bulldog cabs were wide and, like the Dukedog, they enclosed the rear part of the springs. Maybe scratchbuild or check the Dapol kit again which will be very similar.

 

Nick

 

By 'eck, Nick, you don't hang about!!

 

That's a very positive and reassuring reply, Nick, thank you. It looks as though I have a viable plan after all and comforting to know that the Dapol kit is an affordable and obtainable source.

 

I'm sure many others will find this of use.

 

I look forward to receiving your PM; at your own leisure, of course.

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

ps. forgot the tender...

 

It looks like most Bulldogs had modernised late Dean or early Churchward 3000 gallon tenders. These had side plates, NOT coal rails. Yes, there is a Finney kit and very fine it is. However, the Dapol kit should have a similar 3000 or 3500 gallon type. There are many detail variations around this time, but I've seen photos of Bulldogs with different types. I suspect the Bachmann one will be a later type with longer side plates, transverse vacuum cylinder, etc.

 

Nick

 

Now were cooking on gas!!!

 

Thanks, Nick.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[Guest jonte]

One valid point I forgot to mention in my list of ingredients was: will all the Bachmann gubbins (motor wires etc.) fit into the replacement superstructure?

 

My guess is that (like the recent Bachmann City) these will be accommodated in the firebox. As we're just exchanging one Belpaire for another, perhaps this won't turn out to be much of a problem? (Or do I speak too soon? Hmmm...).

 

Finally, a decoder (for DCC users) and also some pick up wires are accommodated inside the City tender which pass to the engine via a drawbar as, I would imagine, will be the Earl/Dukedog's, so perhaps the chassis (with some suitable replacement wheels or just use the ones supplied?) could be used as a platform on which to mount the Dapol tender to save moving it all about?

 

Just a thought. Perhaps somebody can think of a few more 'issues' that may have to be surmounted.

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

Hello again.

 

May I just run this by you?

 

First off, here's a picture of Ernest Palmer that I posted several posts back:

 

 

Is she sporting the parallel no.2 referred to earlier?

 

Now, consider this picture of the Dapol City kit:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1440&bih=785&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RPLBjuqEPcVTPM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ehattons.com/34868/Dapol_C061_City_Class_4_4_0_City_of_Truro_steam_loco_plastic_kit/StockDetail.aspx&docid=Ojzdr0-5OhmTMM&imgurl=http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/C061_29322_Qty1_2.jpg&w=800&h=296&ei=8KSnUKzLE4iy0QXdrIDACA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=785&vpy=187&dur=74&hovh=136&hovw=369&tx=97&ty=81&sig=109178635657321754509&page=1&tbnh=118&tbnw=301&start=0&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:81

 

Now then, if I took the Dapol kit and sliced the boiler to remove it at the point where it joins the firebox, and then sliced it again at the point where it tapers away from the parallel part of its section (just after the smokebox), then rolled a new section of plasticard to replace the tapered part (in effect making a complete parallel boiler), then reattached it to the firebox, do you think this would pass muster? The bonus of course, would be that the firebox would sit higher above the boiler due to its reduced section, pretty much like the one in the picture of Ernest Palmer, and the saddle and smoke box door wouldn't have to be modified. A suitable replacement chimney (fairly straightforward I would imagine) and an appropriately positioned 'shiny' new dome might then transport it back to its earlier Indian red framed, Edwardian state.

 

Or is this just wishful thinking............?

 

Just a thought.

 

Jonte

[asmay2002]

The Bulldog has a No 2 boiler. The City has a No 4 boiler. They are different diameters. The No 4 was about 6" larger in diameter than the No2.

[Guest jonte]

The Bulldog has a No 2 boiler. The City has a No 4 boiler. They are different diameters. The No 4 was about 6" larger in diameter than the No2.

 

Thanks, Andy.

 

So, in 4mm, that's a difference of 1mm all round. Blind man on his proverbial steed?

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Buffalo (Nick) for taking the time and trouble to PM me with a scan of several pages, replete with black & white (inspirational) photos, from his collection.

 

They will help me no end.

 

Your extremely kind, Nick.

 

Thank you.

 

Jonte

 

P.S. .........The diagrams and drawings that accompany them are worth their weight(s) in gold

[Guest jonte]

Me again........................

 

My wife kindly brought home a copy of the current BRM earlier this evening, and during a quick scan of the contents, I was drawn to an article by Tony Wright in which he converted a Bachmann K something or other to a 'K3' for his Little Bytham layout, utilising a fret obtained from a kit manufacturer as suggested by Castle (Andy) earlier in this thread.

 

Anyway, what drew me was the order of assembly (of the superstructure) of the donor loco, which stripped down into component parts of boiler/firebox/smokebox, footplate and lower saddle and, finally, cab. It occurred to me that if their new Dukedog model is of similar construction, it will ease the whole conversion process no end. At least more parts will be salvageable in as much as they are already separate units. I wonder if there's any way of finding out? Perhaps I'll just have to be patient.

 

Just thinking out loud again!

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

The Bulldog has a No 2 boiler. The City has a No 4 boiler. They are different diameters. The No 4 was about 6" larger in diameter than the No2.

 

Can anybody verify diameter of No.2 parallel boiler as being 4' 6" please?

 

Btw.......has anybody heard of a D0 boiler,please?

 

Jonte