Dukedog to Duke: a feasible proposition?

[Guest jonte]

In mind of Knobhead's and relaxinghobby's excellent recent conversion projects to back date RTR models to those of pregrouping times, and with Bachmann's imminent release of the Earl class "Dukedog" ever looming large, I wondered whether it would be feasible to turn it into a "Duke" (or even a Bulldog) sporting Indian red frames?

 

For comparison, I have a copy of Iain Rice's 'Etched Loco Construction' to hand which sports an unpainted 4mm Blacksmith/Mallard model of a Duke on the front cover, and to my untrained eye, the two look remarkably the same.

 

Perhaps an appropriately painted and lined Bachmann coupled to a new tender would pass muster?

 

Jonte

[knobhead]

I like to think that anything is possible as long as you have, roughly, the same wheel base and wheel size.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

[Guest jonte]

I like to think that anything is possible as long as you have, roughly, the same wheel base and wheel size.

 

Regards,

 

Stefan

 

That sounds like a reasonable brief, knobhead. Think I'll do a bit of research and see what comes up.

 

Bestest,

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

Initial interrogation of Wikipaedia shows Drivers and Leading wheels (of both types) at approx. 5'8" and 3'8" respectively. Good start!

 

Length of Dukedog is stated at a little over 56' although none is given for the Duke. However, as can be seen from the drawings at both top and bottom of following source page, they appear to be of similar length http://www.champwild...s/440index.html

 

Good news as far as I can gather is that the last batch of Dukes were provided with large domes and flush Belpaire fireboxes as per the Dukedogs; bad news is that the tops of the Duke frames were curved unlike the Dukedog's which were flat topped (also shown in the drawings above).

 

Still, I'm sure that a couple of lengths of suitably sized annealed brass bent round a former of an appropriate size and glued to the plastic with superglue, would serve the purpose admirably? Even plasticard soaked in warm water might also do the job.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Jonte

 

I think 3278, shown halfway down the following page, is a good e.g. albeit, I think, harnessed to a smaller (2000 gallon Churchward) tender than the Dukedogs, which I believe is nearer 3500 gallons (also Churchward)? http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_duke.htm

[Castle]

 

Any thoughts?

 

Jonte

 

 

Hi Jonte,

 

Why not do a Bulldog? Standard No. 2 boiler (as fitted to 41/51/81XX Prairies, 56XXs, County tanks, etc) and Dukedog chassis without too much modification.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Donw]

The Dukedog was the marriage of a Duke sized boiler with a Bulldog chassis so something either has to be changed or fudged. IIRC some of the earlier Bulldog had smaller boilers which were changed later although they seemed to be slightly higher pitched. Russel has some resonable photos.

Don

[Guest jonte]

Thank you Castle and Donw for your valuable contributions.

 

I have to admit that I'd dismissed the Bulldog class, having erroneously believed that the boiler was tapered. Consequently, I looked it up on Wikipaedia and was surprised to discover that the earliest batches were kitted out with a parallel boiler as referred to in Castle's post. However, similar to the earliest Dukes, they were also fitted with curved frames which would mean that the model would have to go under the knife. Reading on, however, not only was I delighted to discover that No. 3352 Camel of 1899 was straight framed (like the Dukedog), but that it was also fitted with a parallel boiler AND a Belpaire firebox. My only concerns here were that the firebox was described as raised - is this different to the siting of the firebox on the Dukedog class I wonder? - and the boiler 'domeless' which I think would require the removal of the dome from the model? (I consider this to be an exercise even I should be capable of(?)!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3300_Class

 

Delving further, I was buoyed to discover a picture of No.3420 'Ernest Palmer' which, according to Wikipaedia, was constructed in 1903 and which to my uninitiated modeller's eye looks not that dissimilar to the Dukedog, apart from a missing dome and early type tender with its coal rails(?). Perhaps that cover in lieu of the dome is what is meant by the term 'domeless' as per 'Ernest Palmer'? (Perhaps the trade supplies a suitable replacement of this type?).

 

I'm hoping and praying that I'm on to something here folks, as apart from the original being a beautiful engine, I'm a big fan of Bachmann models and the excellent service they provide (usual disclaimer) and would love to show my continued support by purchasing yet another of their wonderful steeds. I'd love to have it just for the sake of it, however, like most, I'm building to a budget I'm afraid so it has to be relevant.

 

Hoping someone can help.

 

Jonte.

[Castle]

Hi Jonte,

 

Using a spare body shell from the likes of Bachmann (the 56XX springs to mind as a good choice due to the amount of exposed boiler and smokebox) should mean that most of the complex curves (particularly in the firebox top) should be done for you and you should be able to fill in the most of the rest. The only tricky bit I think would be the lower firebox sides.

 

Moving on a step with that train (pun! Sorry!) of thought, does anyone out there know of a good white metal, resin or brass kit with a pre formed No. 2 boiler in it? Most kit manufacturers are pretty good at letting you have castings. You might get a cab out of it too. David at SEF did me a deal on a couple of bits so I can get round to doing my avatar locomotive (at long last!). Lets mine the RMWEB information coal face. Over to you good people...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[ThePipersSon]

As has been stated, the dukedogs were built using bulldog frames and duke boilers. To convert a dukedog to a duke would need the frame changed to a curved frame. Doesn't Bachmann use metal on the frames to provide weight?

 

The bulldogs with parallel boilers were an early version of the standard type 2 boiler. These came in at least three shapes - parallel, short cone and long cone, and were quite different in shape to the duke boiler, and appear to be smaller. There are quite a few models with type 2 boilers, and I suppose one could be used, but then you might have problems fitting all the Bachmann insides into one.

 

I would be interested to see the project if you decide to go ahead.

[Guest jonte]

Hi Jonte,

 

Using a spare body shell from the likes of Bachmann (the 56XX springs to mind as a good choice due to the amount of exposed boiler and smokebox) should mean that most of the complex curves (particularly in the firebox top) should be done for you and you should be able to fill in the most of the rest. The only tricky bit I think would be the lower firebox sides.

 

Moving on a step with that train (pun! Sorry!) of thought, does anyone out there know of a good white metal, resin or brass kit with a pre formed No. 2 boiler in it? Most kit manufacturers are pretty good at letting you have castings. You might get a cab out of it too. David at SEF did me a deal on a couple of bits so I can get round to doing my avatar locomotive (at long last!). Lets mine the RMWEB information coal face. Over to you good people...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Hi again, Castle and thanks for the prompt reply.

 

Plenty to mull over there, although all do-able sounding suggestions. I'll check out the 56XX of which you make mention and shall be interested to see if there any helpful responses with regard to sourcing suitable replacement parts as you describe from a manufacturer or two. The prospect of changing a boiler/firebox/smokebox combo sounds a little less daunting than trying to hack into that beautiful frame, to say nothing of getting those flares and their reverse flares right (times four!!).

 

Thanks once again, Castle, for your invaluable help.

 

Jonte

[Guest jonte]

As has been stated, the dukedogs were built using bulldog frames and duke boilers. To convert a dukedog to a duke would need the frame changed to a curved frame. Doesn't Bachmann use metal on the frames to provide weight?

 

The bulldogs with parallel boilers were an early version of the standard type 2 boiler. These came in at least three shapes - parallel, short cone and long cone, and were quite different in shape to the duke boiler, and appear to be smaller. There are quite a few models with type 2 boilers, and I suppose one could be used, but then you might have problems fitting all the Bachmann insides into one.

 

I would be interested to see the project if you decide to go ahead.

 

Thanks, Tom, for yet another positive and helpful reply. Appreciate the sobering point you make too about fitting all the gubbins inside even if they can be found. Gotta keep it real. Railway modelling, hey?

 

I shall promise to keep you apprised.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[ozzyo]

Hello Jonte,

 

if the Backman model has straight frames why not look at any of the straight framed locos first, eg. the Bulldogs, Birds or Dukes. IIRC all of them had parallel, half cone or full cone boilers filled, at one time.

 

Then when Backman bring out the City you can then go for the large wheeled classes with the same types of boilers as well.

 

But now I would start with the footplate that you have and just look at changing the boiler. Leave the footplate until later.

 

If this is your first go at doing something like this, I'd get the Dapol kit of City of Truro and have a go on that. If you cock it up it's about £10 down the spout, start carving into a Backman loco and it's about £100 down the spout. Also with the Dapol kit you will still have a tender that you can use later.

 

The list of drawing that you have shown, only show some of the changes not all of them and not to all the loco classes.

 

HTH

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. when you start talking about Dukedogs IIRC these were rebuilds with Bulldog frames and Duke boilers, or was it the other way around.

[Fat Controller]

Possibly of interest; I remember a series of articles in Airfix Magazine many years ago on conversions of the City of Truro kit into other outside-framed 4-4-0s such as the Bulldog and Atabara classes. I think Chris Ellis might have been the author. It might be worth seeking these out for inspiration; I'd offer you mine, but they were eaten by mice many years ago.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

This might help the discussion along a bit:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no440s.html

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[buffalo]

Well, this is fun! In going for one of Churchward's developments from the later Dean 4-4-0s you've opened what is possibly the greatest can of worms the GWR has to offer. If I start by pointing out that 'Bulldog' was actually built as a Duke and that what we now call the Bulldog class covers a very wide range of types and was originally known as the Camel class, then you start to get the picture.

 

Tom has already pointed out that the "standard type 2 boiler" came in three different production forms and, unfortunately, most of Castle's suggested sources used the later long-coned variant. 'Bulldog', incidentally, had what most agree to have been the original prototype of this boiler when built. That was different again in that it had a large dome and the safety valves were mounted on the raised Belpaire firebox.

 

There are, however, a couple of points in the OP and subsequent posts that may well help to cut down the possibilities. The first is that you mention a desire for indian red frames, and the second is the apparently growing concensus that it would be best to leave the Bachmann chassis as is and go for a straight-framed Bulldog. The livery means you have to choose one that was built before 1906 and the straight frames were introduced with No 3353 (later 3341*) 'Blasius' in May 1900. No 3443 (later 3381) 'Birkenhead', built in Sept 1903 was the first to have a short-coned boiler. Previously, all had been parallel. No 3701 (later 3411) 'Stanley Baldwin' was the first to receive a long-coned boiler. It was built in April 1906, two years after the previous new Bulldog.

 

From this, I would conclude that only parallel and short-coned boilers would have been seen on locos with indian red frames. Of course, it is recorded that there were many variations in the boiler details between 1900 and 1904 and without studying well-dated photos, we cannot be certain that all engines in this period would have had indian red frames. There were, after all, some strange livery experiments going on at that time. Again, photos will be needed to pin down the smaller details, such as the variations in the size, shape and locations of nameplates. Yet another source of variation is in the frames or, more specifically, the addition of strengthening. However, whilst there may be one or two exception, I believe that most of these changes date to 1905 or later.

 

OzzyO's suggestion of carving up a Airfix/Dapol City kit is interesting, but remember that the Badminton/Atbara/City class locos were larger and represent a parallel evolution with 6'8¹/₂" drivers and, mostly, standard 4 boilers.

 

Nick

 

* Yet another source of confusion when looking at photos is the numbering, all of these 4-4-0 classes were renumbered in 1912.

[Guest jonte]

"Whooble!!!"

 

"I'm just off to Hartlepool to buy some exploding trousers."

 

Jntoe.....................

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

I knew someone better at the early 20th Century GWR stuff would come and make sense of my ponderings - I thought this one was a bit of a minefield. Cheers Buffalo!

 

Does anyone need a Castle Class question answering? Much more my area...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Jonte - don't let me catch you with a pair of underpants on your head and two pencils up your nose...

[Guest jonte]

Ozzyo, Fat Controller, Nick and Castle (yet again): thank you all for your kind help and most valuable advice.

 

Funnily enough, Ozzyo, I was checking out the Dapol 'City' kit earlier to see if there were any bits that might prove of use for my prospective project, but your suggestion of using it as a guinea pig to hone my surgical skills on is something I hadn't considered and could save any unnecessary tears!!

 

Fat Controller: this is just the sort of thing I'd like to consult before diving in, even if it was just to prove that I was biting off more than I could chew, so I shall search around for Mr. Ellis's account. As for the mice: they still owe me for the cost of repairs to that rubber dinghy they chewed through!!

 

Nick: you're knowledge of all things 'God's Wonderful' never fails to astound and I'm privileged that you should seek to share it with a modelling ignoramus like me. May I assure you, one way or t'other, it isn't wasted and I'm certain the answers I seek lie within, so thank you.

 

Castle: your earlier advice about sourcing a benevolent manufacturer struck a chord, and a brief search revealed a possible benefactor. I fired off an email (containing my sincerest apology lest he consider me a mere pleb and time waster) to see if he could help, and I eagerly await his response to my request for a No. 2 boiler and its ancillaries. I shall let you all know how I fare.

 

Next question: does anybody know how to remove a pencil that has become trapped in a nasal cavity?

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte

[colin penfold]

 

 

Next question: does anybody know how to remove a pencil that has become trapped in a nasal cavity?

 

 

Jonte

 

Use an electric pencil sharpener or lathe to shorten the pencil to around 1/4 inch proud of the nose (or closer if you are brave) If the vibrations haven't knocked you out, you should then be able to remove the offending item by the power of your own lungs. Simply place the forefinger of either hand on the free nostril, press to render it airtight and then breathe out violently through the nose. Please be careful where you are pointing the nose at the time as high velocity pencil stubs can injure small children and animals. Wibble!

[Guest jonte]

Use an electric pencil sharpener or lathe to shorten the pencil to around 1/4 inch proud of the nose (or closer if you are brave) If the vibrations haven't knocked you out, you should then be able to remove the offending item by the power of your own lungs. Simply place the forefinger of either hand on the free nostril, press to render it airtight and then breathe out violently through the nose. Please be careful where you are pointing the nose at the time as high velocity pencil stubs can injure small children and animals. Wibble!

 

Described like a true 'Railway' modeller, Colin !!!!!

[colin penfold]

I have been lurking / reading this with interest as I could do with a Duke for my layout. I knew that I could not realistically add anything on the historical or modelling front but thank you for momentarily entering my area of expertise and allowing me the chance to contribute!

[buffalo]

...Nick: you're knowledge of all things 'God's Wonderful' never fails to astound and I'm privileged that you should seek to share it with a modelling ignoramus like me...

It's all an illusion really, Jonte. It all boils down to having a few of the right books and knowing where to look. In this case, mostly part seven of the RCTS Locomotives of the Great Western Railway series. When folk ask interesting questions its a great incentive to burrow in the books and read or re-read the relevant bits. I always find it much easier to remember things when I'm chasing answers to specific questions than if I just read generally.

 

Nick

 

EDIT ps: I'm still trying to work out how to turn the pencil in the lathe with your nose attached

[Guest jonte]

I have been lurking / reading this with interest as I could do with a Duke for my layout. I knew that I could not realistically add anything on the historical or modelling front but thank you for momentarily entering my area of expertise and allowing me the chance to contribute!

 

So at long last, I post something of use.

 

Very kind of you to say so, Colin, although the credit must go to all who have contributed.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[Guest jonte]

It's all an illusion really, Jonte. It all boils down to having a few of the right books and knowing where to look. In this case, mostly part seven of the RCTS Locomotives of the Great Western Railway series. When folk ask interesting questions its a great incentive to burrow in the books and read or re-read the relevant bits. I always find it much easier to remember things when I'm chasing answers to specific questions than if I just read generally.

 

Nick

 

EDIT ps: I'm still trying to work out how to turn the pencil in the lathe with your nose attached

 

Very modest of you, Nick.

 

What's a lathe?

 

Jonte.

[Donw]

Don't forget Tre Pol and Pen the prototype of the Dukedogs had different sized bogies wheels to the rest.

Don