Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

A gentleman is one who builds and completes a Falcon Brass kit without using expletives and without telling anyone.

P

A genius, with or without expletives.

[gr.king]

The sad thing is, because of the fear of being ridiculed (by contemporary morons), he hasn't mentioned his interest in school.

 

I went to school with quite a few of the morons of the day. At least at the age of 15 he can look forward to the fact that within a couple of years he will have seen many of them for the last time in his life. One or two of them might just manage to grow up a bit and turn into decent citizens I suppose, but......I used to find it entertaining for a few years after the age of sixteen to read the court reports in the local newspaper to see who had very predictably gone to prison. Then at a school reunion about ten years ago it was little surprise to find out who had died from "exotic substance" abuse too.

Why is it so difficult at that age to recognise that much peer pressure actually comes from those who are of no importance or value?

 

I'm glad that I now feel old enough to enjoy being known as a bit odd!

 

Good gardeners remove the weeds on a regular basis. It's a pity that we allow the weeds in society to persist and become a major liability......

[Tony Wright]

Hello Tony

 

Fantastic thread you have going, plenty of topics getting covered here....

 

Great to see you building a B16/1, is it a PDK kit?

 

Ive started scratch building a chassis for one & converting a DJH 16/3 to a B16/1

 

photo 2-1.JPG

photo 1-1.JPG

 

I'll try & cover it in some detail on my thread 'Chris-GNR work bench' at some point.

 

Many thanks

Chris

Thanks Chris,

 

It is from a PDK kit. 

 

As usual, I'm building it rigid, and driving off the centre axle. Yours is sprung/compensated by the look of the pictures, and is it in EM/P4. I suppose in P4, compensation/springing is essential but I've never found it necessary in EM. My chassis resides underneath Roy Jackson's 60501 on Retford and it runs perfectly, rigid. 

 

Having built a few compensated chassis, none of them work as well as the rigid ones, and they took much longer. 

 

I'll look with interest as to how yours develops. It looks splendid work at this stage. 

[coachmann]

David Jenkinson was a great believer in rigid chassis, born I suspect out of years of experience. I think builder Geoff Holt felt the same way. Some weird sprung or compensated chassis used to come in for painting and all I had to do was ensure no paint clogged up the works......I said that with sarcasm! All seemed pretty light-footed on test anyway. The worst were Johnny Walkers Taiwan-produced brass LMS 'Jubilee' and 'Black 5' locos, of which I painted a good proportion,  with rigid middle axle and rocking outer axles. Brian Brown of Westward Models did quite a trade making them into runners by making the chassis rigid. I seem to remember there were 250 of each plus a handful of 8F 2-8-0's and Mucky Duck 2-6-0's......I'll bet some RMweb members still have the 4-6-0's.

Edited August 9, 2014 by coachmann

[davefrk]

Hi Larry

 

David Jenkinson was a great believer in rigid chassis, born I suspect out of years of experience. I think builder Geoff Holt felt the same way. Some weird sprung or compensated chassis used to come in for painting and all I had to do was ensure no paint clogged up the works......I said that with sarcasm! All seemed pretty light-footed on test anyway. The worst were Johnny Walkers Taiwan-produced brass LMS 'Jubilee' and 'Black 5' locos, of which I painted a good proportion,  with rigid middle axle and rocking outer axles. Brian Brown of Westward Models did quite a trade making them into runners by making the chassis rigid. I seem to remember there were 250 of each plus a handful of 8F 2-8-0's and Mucky Duck 2-6-0's......I'll bet some RMweb members still have the 4-6-0's.

 

Hi Larry, you've just 'sprung' a memory for me, many years ago a customer was complaining about a loco he had bought at an 'emporium'. He said that although it was fully sprung it just didn't run anything like the ones I had built for him in the past and that included the earlier rigid ones. It was a Black Five, I think, from that very stable you mention. I hadn't seen one before but wondered how on earth the 'chassis' was expected to work, weird set-up altogether, not sprung at all. I altered it to be rigid on first and second axles and heavily sprung on the third axle. It ran for years like that and covered many miles, I don't know what happened to it after the chap died.

I may be wrong but did you at that time fix a plate on these locos saying 'painted by Larry Goddard'?

 

Regards,

Dave Franks

[coachmann]

Hi Larry

 

 

Hi Larry, you've just 'sprung' a memory for me, many years ago a customer was complaining about a loco he had bought at an 'emporium'. He said that although it was fully sprung it just didn't run anything like the ones I had built for him in the past and that included the earlier rigid ones. It was a Black Five, I think, from that very stable you mention. I hadn't seen one before but wondered how on earth the 'chassis' was expected to work, weird set-up altogether, not sprung at all. I altered it to be rigid on first and second axles and heavily sprung on the third axle. It ran for years like that and covered many miles, I don't know what happened to it after the chap died.

I may be wrong but did you at that time fix a plate on these locos saying 'painted by Larry Goddard'?

 

Regards,

Dave Franks

I always signed them in yellow paint together with a roman month and year. This started as a result of 'forgeries' and I think 25 Jap Brass 'Kings' were the first painted for the importer. Derek Lawrence often affixed his hand engraved plates though, often on top of my signature. 

[Chris-GNR]

Thanks Chris,

 

It is from a PDK kit. 

 

As usual, I'm building it rigid, and driving off the centre axle. Yours is sprung/compensated by the look of the pictures, and is it in EM/P4. I suppose in P4, compensation/springing is essential but I've never found it necessary in EM. My chassis resides underneath Roy Jackson's 60501 on Retford and it runs perfectly, rigid. 

 

Having built a few compensated chassis, none of them work as well as the rigid ones, and they took much longer. 

 

I'll look with interest as to how yours develops. It looks splendid work at this stage. 

 

Hello again...

 

Thanks for your kind comments, yes its in EM & is compensated on the front two drivers, fixed rear & a sprung bogie on a fixed sliding pivot.

 

The whole rigid/compensation thing i think is a preference thing more than necessity in EM i would agree (assuming the track is well laid), a must in P4 i would say due to tolerances. 

I do it because i like the process of setting it up & getting it to work just so. Also the added benefits of good adhesion & current collection (all wheels down all the time) is always a good thing.

 

The layout i'm currently building locos for has an incline though the entire 30ft scenic part of it on the main line & a helix to clime to get out of the fiddle yard at one end so the addition of well weighted & compensated locos felt like the right thing to do regards helping pulling power on the gradient.  

 

I'll try & start a thread on the B16 i'm doing after the weekend.

 

Thanks again

 

Chris

[Tony Wright]

Hello again...

 

Thanks for your kind comments, yes its in EM & is compensated on the front two drivers, fixed rear & a sprung bogie on a fixed sliding pivot.

 

The whole rigid/compensation thing i think is a preference thing more than necessity in EM i would agree (assuming the track is well laid), a must in P4 i would say due to tolerances. 

I do it because i like the process of setting it up & getting it to work just so. Also the added benefits of good adhesion & current collection (all wheels down all the time) is always a good thing.

 

The layout i'm currently building locos for has an incline though the entire 30ft scenic part of it on the main line & a helix to clime to get out of the fiddle yard at one end so the addition of well weighted & compensated locos felt like the right thing to do regards helping pulling power on the gradient.  

 

I'll try & start a thread on the B16 i'm doing after the weekend.

 

Thanks again

 

Chris

Thanks Chris,

 

I like well-engineered chassis, whether they're compensated/sprung or not. Certainly, consistent current collection should be a bonus if all pick-up wheels are in constant contact with the rails; rather than the milkmaid's stool effect which a rigid chassis can give. However, I've never been convinced that a compensated/sprung chassis gives better adhesion. My believe in this observation is empirical. I've built about five/six non-rigid chassis and not one pulled more than its rigid equivalent. The only one I still possess, a Crownline un-rebuilt 'WC' behaves, under load, like a novice ice skater, spinning its wheels furiously. I built the next 'WC' (for a customer) rigid and she romped away with the same train. 

 

The PDK B16/1 I'm building is a replacement for a factory-finished one (which has appeared on this thread). Built by Paul Hill, it's a beautiful job and it's compensated. It runs very well (with just the tiniest of tight spots, which should disappear) but, though it's weighted it doesn't pull as much as my rigid (DJH) B16/1, even though the weighting is similar. My rigid chassis for the replacement runs very well, despite having no weight yet. Its owner was delighted a week ago as it purred round, as I'm sure he'll still be delighted when it's finished. 

 

Adequate pick-ups on my locos ensure no continuity problems, though I don't use tender pick-ups. And, what is one compensating for? Uneven baseboards, dodgy track, inadequate wiring? With all the essentials done properly, in OO and EM rigidity is fine, especially with all live-frog points. In P4 a rigid chassis probably won't work. That said, it's my experience (as an observer at shows) that, no matter how a P4 chassis is made, it doesn't always work properly. In fact, the only fully erected layout I photographed where I couldn't run the trains exactly to where I wanted for the pictures was P4. Stuff derailed or stalled all over the place, despite professionally-made track and professionally-built stock.  

 

As my condition improves, it's been my great joy to have friends (old and new) around for a day's running on Little Bytham; gentlemen, it's been my pleasure. The throttles are theirs and it's not just racehorses racing by (though that's the most fun!), but also slow freights and shunting backwards and forwards across several slips/double slips in tandem, without stutter or stalling (apart from a slightly tight back-to-back last Tuesday). The perfect scenic-side trackwork is down to Norman Solomon but the rigidity of the locos (and all my stock) is down to me. As I've said many times, how can folk ever be satisfied with their layouts (whatever scale/gauge) if they don't run properly? With rigid chassis, I get good-running locos.  

Edited August 9, 2014 by Tony Wright

[BR(W)]

"...a Crownline un-rebuilt 'WC' behaves, under load, like a novice ice skater, spinning its wheels furiously."

 

Surely fidelity to prototype par excellance?

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

[Pebbles]

I have no personal knowledge of Geoff Holt, who I believe is no longer with us, but I have the two volumes of his "A Personal Approach". These books full of beautiful photos are an inspiration, although I am still confused as to how he managed to cut and file slots for wheel bearings with such a degree of precision. But to the point, as far as I can see from these books Geoff Holt, who primarily modelled to 7mm, was employing and advocating compensation or springing. Each to his own, but it does appear that in many cases the middle axle on six coupled models are often slightly higher than their neighbours or allowed a degree of vertical movement to prevent rocking. The base line is whatever works for you.   

[coachmann]

I have no personal knowledge of Geoff Holt, who I believe is no longer with us, but I have the two volumes of his "A Personal Approach". These books full of beautiful photos are an inspiration, although I am still confused as to how he managed to cut and file slots for wheel bearings with such a degree of precision. But to the point, as far as I can see from these books Geoff Holt, who primarily modelled to 7mm, was employing and advocating compensation or springing. Each to his own, but it does appear that in many cases the middle axle on six coupled models are often slightly higher than their neighbours or allowed a degree of vertical movement to prevent rocking. The base line is whatever works for you.   

Friend Geoff built against commissions and would do whatever the client wanted.

[Tony Wright]

I have no personal knowledge of Geoff Holt, who I believe is no longer with us, but I have the two volumes of his "A Personal Approach". These books full of beautiful photos are an inspiration, although I am still confused as to how he managed to cut and file slots for wheel bearings with such a degree of precision. But to the point, as far as I can see from these books Geoff Holt, who primarily modelled to 7mm, was employing and advocating compensation or springing. Each to his own, but it does appear that in many cases the middle axle on six coupled models are often slightly higher than their neighbours or allowed a degree of vertical movement to prevent rocking. The base line is whatever works for you.   

I don't know whether any of my photographs appeared in Geoff's books, but when one mentions the name of a master model-maker in relationship with what I might be advocating, then any similarity of method/standard with me disappears and is entirely non-existent. 

 

I used to travel up to Geoff's house in North Wales on a regular, if not frequent basis. Originally, this was on a photographic commission from David Jenkinson for Modellers' Back Track, in the first instance principally to photograph three 'Royal Scots', two he'd built for Jenks and one for himself. The workmanship was peerless, and he had a fully-equipped metalwork workshop. I can't remember, but I doubt if the two for Mr Jenkinson were sprung. 

 

On other occasions, I photographed his work for Pete Waterman, principally in Gauge 1. Later, Geoff came down to have his models photographed at my home in Wolverhampton, it being cheaper for him than having to pay my travelling expenses up to Rhos. His work, and that of George Ure, were the finest examples of locomotive model-making in the larger scales I've ever seen. 

 

If Geoff advocated springing/compensation, it was because he considered it better for good running, and his ran. This was clearly evident on his O Gauge loft layout where his own locos were in operation. Unfortunately, it was never finished and I never got the opportunity to photograph it (I think he moved house). But, it's one thing to advocate a system but it'll be no good if you can't make it work properly. A master model-maker like him could have chosen any chassis construction which took his fancy and it would have worked perfectly. A small Furness loco I photographed of his was not sprung/compensated (as far as I can remember) for running on David Jenkinson's Kendal Branch, and that worked beautifully. 

 

The late John Horton solved dozens of problems in getting Scale Seven locos to run properly, with all sorts of springing/compensation. However, in the last year of his life he returned to old-fashioned FS O, and built rigid chassis. I remember him telling me they worked just as well, and they didn't derail. 

 

I can get rigid chassis to work very well in OO; better than I can get compensated/sprung ones to work, and they don't take as long. That's why I advocate rigidity, but I'm not in the same league (not even in the same sport!) as the late, great, Geoff Holt. Not that anyone suggested I was.

[Tony Wright]

I'm happy to report that the dear old J27 and Q6 have found a new home, or will have come next weekend. 

 

 

Apparently, the J27 as finished had a couple or so mistakes, principally the non-continuous handrail around the smokebox front for a superheated boiler; the way to tell is if the smokebox protrudes further forward, as in this one. I've thus made the extra piece for going round the front. 

 

It was also a bit lacking in detail, hence the provision of the sand-operating gear (at least I think that's what it is). 

 

The new owner is an LNER man, so the loco needed back-dating a bit - the replacement taller dome and removal of the BR brandings are indicative of this, though the buffer stocks have yet to be painted black.

 

 

The Q6 has just had its BR identity taken off, and a new footstep made to replace the one lost in the oblivion of time.

 

The new owner is a master at weathering, so how long my shabby efforts might last is a moot point, though patch-painting, the application of LNER brandings and further weathering would be the way forward to me. 

 

I've now replaced the glazing in the J27 with Krystal Klear (the previous stuff had cracked). They are both products of their time; 20+ year old white-metal kits on scratch-built chassis (the original white-metal lumps having been melted down for ballast), devoid of some of the detail we take for granted on RTR models today. They run well, though, and will haul prodigious amounts. As 'layout' locos, in my opinion, they fit the bill entirely. And, it's as layout locos that they'll be used.

[Guest 2750]

Ah well, I better show my face as the new owner of the locomotives. Hard to refuse really!

 

As some of you may know, I'm planning a 36ftx15ft layout of Thirsk South junction, which will incorporate the ECML South of the A61 road bridge, the old MPD, Thirsk Town Branch and the branch to Melmerby all set between the years 1936-1939.

 

I've been focusing on building up the RTR pacifics, and now have around 10 A1s, 2 A3s, 20 A4s. Once Book Law is released I shall not need any more. There is a great number of mixed traffic and freight in the WTT. A large number of the freight is either coming or going from Newport on Teesside, so J24, J26 and J27 are going to be relatively common along with Q5s and Q6s. These two locos are going to be key additions.

 

I've a J25 kit to finish off, which will be a Starbeck allocation, working from Harrogate to Thirsk Junction, or along the Leeds Northern (which will run along the back wall). I've Dave Alexander Q6 kit to build upstairs along with a North Eastern Kits J24 when I feel confident enough. 

Edited August 10, 2014 by 2750

[Class O]

I'm happy to report that the dear old J27 and Q6 have found a new home, or will have come next weekend. 

 

Dsc_8408.jpg

 

Apparently, the J27 as finished had a couple or so mistakes, principally the non-continuous handrail around the smokebox front for a superheated boiler; the way to tell is if the smokebox protrudes further forward, as in this one. I've thus made the extra piece for going round the front. 

 

It was also a bit lacking in detail, hence the provision of the sand-operating gear (at least I think that's what it is). 

 

The new owner is an LNER man, so the loco needed back-dating a bit - the replacement taller dome and removal of the BR brandings are indicative of this, though the buffer stocks have yet to be painted black.

 

DSC_8410.JPG

 

The Q6 has just had its BR identity taken off, and a new footstep made to replace the one lost in the oblivion of time.

 

The new owner is a master at weathering, so how long my shabby efforts might last is a moot point, though patch-painting, the application of LNER brandings and further weathering would be the way forward to me. 

 

I've now replaced the glazing in the J27 with Krystal Klear (the previous stuff had cracked). They are both products of their time; 20+ year old white-metal kits on scratch-built chassis (the original white-metal lumps having been melted down for ballast), devoid of some of the detail we take for granted on RTR models today. They run well, though, and will haul prodigious amounts. As 'layout' locos, in my opinion, they fit the bill entirely. And, it's as layout locos that they'll be used.

Darlington usually painted buffer bodies red ( a brighter red almost vermillion shade not like the BR shade ) side & connecting rods were often red too 

[coachmann]

Here's a picture from May 2004 leading up to my complete break with professional painting & lining. Amongst the Geoff Holt locos are a few Gauge 1 locos for Pete Waterman that Tony W. mentioned.......My old infants/junior school in Oldham where I started in 1947 is depicted in the painting..

 

Edited August 10, 2014 by coachmann

[Guest 2750]

Darlington usually painted buffer bodies red ( a brighter red almost vermillion shade not like the BR shade ) side & connecting rods were often red too 

 

Thanks Owen, this photo below shows both buffer shanks and con rods clearly.

 

This is a HM Lane photograph taken in 1938. I think undercopyright rules this is now 'out of copyright' as it's 76 years old therefore in the public domain, hence I've attached it for all to see in this thread.

 

The J27 I'm acquiring from Tony, will be renumbered. I found a photo from York, 1939 of 2392....which later turns out to be the preserved example. When I checked what Rob had numbered it too, ironically that too is the preserved one in BR condition. So as it happens I will be keeping her as the same J27....just depicting her at an earlier time in her life.

[Tony Wright]

Darlington usually painted buffer bodies red ( a brighter red almost vermillion shade not like the BR shade ) side & connecting rods were often red too 

Was this the case in LNER days, because the spec' was black buffer stocks? Still, Darlington painted the cylinder covers on LNER green engines the body colour, when, I assume, the official spec' was black.

 

In BR days, Gorton Works carried on painting the buffer stocks on its locos black, even though the BR spec' was red. Differences at local level, I suppose.

[Tony Wright]

Thanks Owen, this photo below shows both buffer shanks and con rods clearly.

IMG_6569.jpg

 

This is a HM Lane photograph taken in 1938. I think undercopyright rules this is now 'out of copyright' as it's 76 years old therefore in the public domain, hence I've attached it for all to see in this thread.

 

The J27 I'm acquiring from Tony, will be renumbered. I found a photo from York, 1939 of 2392....which later turns out to be the preserved example. When I checked what Rob had numbered it too, ironically that too is the preserved one in BR condition. So as it happens I will be keeping her as the same J27....just depicting her at an earlier time in her life.

There you go - my question from above answered!

[Guest 2750]

It would seem that Darlington very much had it's own way of doing things. I've attached some further HM Lane photographs, which may be of interest for some. Note the red buffer stocks.

 

J39 1469 Neville Hill - 1937

 

B15 813 York - 1937 (Note red con rods)

 

Departmental B13 761 York

 

Q6 2220 York ex works 

 

J24 1931 York - 1938

 

However, the Atlantics that retained apple green (C6 and C7) had the Doncaster black stocks, although were overhauled and repainted at Darlington.

 

Interesting stuff for the LNER modeller.

Edited August 11, 2014 by 2750

[coachmann]

Was this the case in LNER days, because the spec' was black buffer stocks? Still, Darlington painted the cylinder covers on LNER green engines the body colour, when, I assume, the official spec' was black.

 

In BR days, Gorton Works carried on painting the buffer stocks on its locos black, even though the BR spec' was red. Differences at local level, I suppose.

Differences at local levels were/are a minefield for those of us paid to paint things correctly. One might have assumed the mighty Nationalized railway would have come down heavily on deviations from official spec, and it would have been simpler for the modeller and historian if they had. Take splasher tops for instance: Green was specified on green locos but some ex.LNER Pacifics in the Eastern Region got black tops, as did most ex. GWR locos. Lining specified around curved of splashers, but ex GWR and ex SR also got a line along the bottom edge. Boilers bands not to be lined on fireboxes, but this was regularly ignored on the Eastern Region. Lining on Southern Region cabsides changed configuration in the mid 1950s, following the cab side sheets initially then finishing abruptly at the running plate later on. As for buffer shanks, red was the BR specification yet some were painted black on Eastern Region locos. And how about green cylinders on a BR 'Clan'? A fascinating area but also a minefield for the unwary! 

Edited August 11, 2014 by coachmann

[Class O]

It would seem that Darlington very much had it's own way of doing things. I've attached some further HM Lane photographs, which may be of interest for some. Note the red buffer stocks.

 

J39 1469 Neville Hill - 1937

IMG_6570.jpg

 

B15 813 York - 1937 (Note red con rods)

IMG_6571.jpg

 

Departmental B13 761 York

IMG_6572.jpg

 

Q6 2220 York ex works 

IMG_6573.jpg

 

J24 1931 York - 1938

IMG_6576.jpg

 

However, the Atlantics that retained apple green (C6 and C7) had the Doncaster black stocks, although were overhauled and repainted at Darlington.

IMG_6574.jpg

 

Interesting stuff for the LNER modeller.

Just to confuse things further I have been told thet some of the contractor built J39s were delivered with red & white lining like some Sentinel shunters.....

[Guest 2750]

Just to confuse things further I have been told thet some of the contractor built J39s were delivered with red & white lining like some Sentinel shunters.....

 

I hadn't heard about red and white lining, that's very interesting. I did read in the mid 1930's that Doncaster supplied contractors with plans showing red lining, something that had been abolished on J39s from 1928 (plain black being the norm). The contract built J39s came out with mixed traffic lining, followed by Doncaster and Darlington deciding to do the same, with  new J39s being produced fully lined up to 1940.

[richard i]

Today I've been helping a young man of 15 start to build his first loco kit, a SE Finecast C12. Acquiring all the components, even though I donated a few bits and pieces and ordered the kit for him, must have smashed his pocket money bank to bits. I erected the frames beforehand and we installed the motor/gear mount and fitted the wheels. I helped with the pick-ups and showed him how to sweat the rods together for one side. He did the other side, perfectly. He then soldered, with superb dexterity, the crankpin washers on. So, as an 0-4-0, off she ran, so sweetly, so smoothly. Round my railway, at really slow speed, we had to check it hadn't stalled because it was so quiet. This was without any body weight on. A little time spent on a rolling road will see it absolutely perfect.

 

He's never really solder-constructed before, but he's borrowed an iron and been given some flux and solder and he'll be away. I also gave him a copy of Activity Media Right Track 1, which goes through the fundamentals of my approach to chassis making. 

 

His grandad acts as chauffeur, and he'll need at least a couple more visits to finish it off. But, I doubt if he'll need my help for much longer. 

 

What a tonic. At a time when others refuse to do anything for themselves or bleat about models not being right or costing too much, here's a young enthusiast who couldn't give a fig about such things. Yes, his budget is tight, so he buys second-hand and tweaks things. He's started his railway, which is RTR-stocked but he wants to make many things himself. Watch out, in less than a decade, this kid might well be one of the new names in the hobby.

 

He took some pictures, so he might post them here. If you're reading this, Jack, well done!

 

The sad thing is, because of the fear of being ridiculed (by contemporary morons), he hasn't mentioned his interest in school.

I can certainly agree that learning in the wright way is an excellent start to loco building and wish Jack all the best in his progress, though do not get disheartened if you have not mastered it in ten years time, i still consider myself to be learning and i was lucky enough to start out in the wright way coming up for 15 years ago now.

It is easier for a teacher to be up front about interest in the hobby, but it is amazing how many youngsters are interested once you mention that you are.

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

 

It is easier for a teacher to be up front about interest in the hobby, but it is amazing how many youngsters are interested once you mention that you are.

Richard

So much so they introduce you to a great club......guess who has nicked you seat on a Monday night? good to see you have found your way to RMweb now you are living in the colonies.