Wright writes.....

[johnarcher]

There are modellers who in there own areas of expertise should be considered the elite of the hobby, this happens in all walks of life, the best are the elite. We should have no problems with this.

 

Being better at an aspect of modelling does not make you any more of a railway modeller than anyone else. In the past on this thread I have stated what I have scratchbuilt, I have had FUN doing so. I hope the chap and his son with their 6x4 oval of track running their RTR Flying Scotsman with its two coaches are having as much FUN as me. If people are getting something positive from being railway modellers then we are equal.

 

I enjoy seeing well made models done by other people, I learn from other modellers, and in return I try to pass on my knowledge. Let us all continue to share on this thread and other parts of the forum. :sungum:

Agreed, this elitism thing does crop up now and then. It seems as though occasionally saying someone is better at doing something   gets interpreted as claiming they're some sort of superior being. Not the same thing at all

It's odd, I don't think anyone has a problem accepting that Roger Federer is a better tennis player than most people, or Jimmy Anderson a better bowler, because they do those things very well, but if you suggest that someone who makes models very well is a better modeller (not a better person) there are objections.

Tony - the Roger Federer of the 4mm locomotive?

Edited February 24, 2015 by johnarcher

[Mallard60022]

 

Tony - the Roger Federer of the 4mm locomotive?

Good choice, despite Jockyitch being probably the better modeller player at the moment..... but those eyes, those eyes.....

I could make some jokey comments here about us lot being compared to 'celebrity figures' but no.....

P

[chris p bacon]

. Is this 'elitist' thing a modern phenomena?

No,  just wrong choice of words......

[corneliuslundie]

I think the above posters have really put their fingers on it. We all want to be better at what we are doing, whether it be track laying, figure painting, loco building or timetable creation. And we look to those who have worked hard to get to that position in a particular area for advice, inspiration and encouragement. This is not elitism. It's self improvement.

 

In answer briefly to Corbs, I want my models to be as accurate as possible but I feel that if you model an era which has been extensively recorded you risk feeling that, as soon as you create something, someone will produce evidence that what you thought was correct, and had researched for ages, in fact isn't quite correct. One interesting example is those two pictures above of the K1 cab window - which is "correct"?

 

Which leads me to a final comment. Think about the amount of research involved in producing models to the standard Tony achieves.

 

But let's get back to drooling over Tony's models and learning from them.

 

Jonathan

[MikeOxon]

..................Thus, £300.00 for a catering car conversion might seem a bit high compared with a full kit-build, though if I were still a professional builder I wouldn't be prepared to work for less than £20.00 per hour.

In view of the latest MP revelations, Thank goodness you guys don't run a constituency on the side, or we'd be paying 100 times as much

[Tony Wright]

Can I take the thread in a slightly different direction? If no-one has any views, so be it but I shall be interested to hear Tony's thoughts.

 

It is sometimes said that modelling the pre-Grouping railway is much more difficult than modelling the more recent scene, such as Tony's early post -Nationalisation era. But is this true? I think that the period Tony is modelling is the most difficult of all. If I build an 1870s Mid Wales Railway wagon there is one drawing available and no photos. If Tony builds a model of a late LNER carriage in BR livery there are almost certainly two or three drawings, dozens of photos and plenty of people with memories. So the slightest "error" will be noticed and commented on - "That carriage was maroon that week, not blood and custard"; "the generator is slightly too far inboard"; "They didn't lay the tablecloths in the restaurant car until after Grantham on the down journey on the xxx train" etc.

 

My question is whether there is perhaps too much information available to make modelling enjoyable, because there is always the thought that there is one small fact one was not aware of. I have no such problems with Tony's superb models as I have a job telling a Thompson carriage from a Gresley one or one variant of O4 from another. But I still find Tony's modelling very convincing because of its overall quality and fidelity - perhaps in this case ignorance is bliss.

 

So in modelling can too much information be a bad thing?

 

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan,

 

May I use your post to form an initial reply, please? 

 

You're dead right about too much information potentially making modelling less enjoyable. Though it might sound daft (given the 'quality' of the kit), I quite enjoyed making the little Brecon & Merthyr saddle tank in EM gauge, which you missed seeing at Stafford. Why? because of exactly what you say. I had very limited prototype information, loved the fact that the smokebox door hinges were on the wrong side (the editorial staff at BRM thought I'd got this wrong!) and that no two locos in the class were ever the same. So, the one I built is probably a complete hybrid, a bastard in the truest sense. Other than the Valleys' ghosts, who can tell if I'm right or wrong with this? Certainly no one at Stafford, and I'll be surprised if anyone comments about its accuracy when the article about its construction is published next month in BRM. In contrast, I've just completed another Gresley RF (yet to be painted). Of the three (highly-regarded) drawings I've consulted, none quite matches with regard to the roof detail. I've looked at my two previous models (built some time ago) and they're different (I can't remember my exact sources). I've also looked at the work of others and they differ in detail. So, I'll probably have to live with the knowledge that it isn't right (through ignorance or conflicting information). But, in my defence, as I hope you'll someday see, when it's complete, as part of a 13-car rake, swishing by, who'll see? Who'll know? Who'll care if it's dead right or wrong? Speaking of 'dead', with each passing year, more and more of those who have first-hand knowledge of the minutiae of these splendid vehicles are becoming just that! With them goes that priceless information. 

 

Whatever else is said, it's important to me that I've made the models I've just mentioned. If they're wrong, that's my responsibility/fault. If, in some way, they're right, perhaps that's more down to luck. Since no B&M loco will ever be available RTR (a safe bet?) and no Gresley RF is on the RTR horizon, then they'll have to be made. To me (as an elitist?), I can make them. For those who can't (for whatever reason), they'll have to get someone else to do it for them. That is a fact, I'm afraid - it might not be politically-correct or show equality but there you go. If that path is followed, then it keeps professional model-makers in business, which is good. But, to the owner it's 'only' his/her possession in my view, that's why (and if it seems rude, I apologise) I always find much greater satisfaction in talking to the guy/girl who made it. If it's a modeller I'm helping, I get even greater enjoyment - seeing their reaction with regard to something they've made themselves. 'Real' modellers in my opinion - those prepared to have a go and not just give in or moan about how they've always failed.

 

My thanks to all who've corresponded, with some exceptionally-humbling comments. That said, to make me analogous with Roger Federer is taking things a bit far. Look at the work of John Hayes and Mike Edge to see what a top modeller can produce in 4mm, or Roy Jackson on the grand scale. Not me. 

[Tony Wright]

As one who has built wagon kits I have not built much else Oh except 6 layouts (baseboards, laid the Peco track, scenery etc) Thanks to Tony I decided to have a bash at a coach conversion from the old Hornby GWR restaurant car an H33 to a rebuilt H33 (post 1939) and paint in BR maroon. This is the result and I am very proud of it. Thanks Tony for the inspiration and advice in your article in the BRM annual.

 

finished f1.jpg

 

finished f2.jpg

 

and a couple of it in service

 

H33 in service f1.jpg

 

H33 in service f2.jpg

 

And if you want to see how it was built go here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92858-h-33-restaurant-carriage-finished/

Just every now and then, something takes me out of the dumps. Just something like this. 

 

You (the generic 'you') can save all your swoonings, fawnings and sycophancy and what you like; here is something somebody has made for themselves. If I've been just one tiny, tiny bit 'responsible' for your making that carriage, you've made my day!

 

Many thanks.  

[MikeOxon]

......................................

 

It is sometimes said that modelling the pre-Grouping railway is much more difficult than modelling the more recent scene, such as Tony's early post -Nationalisation era. But is this true?

 

I chose to model pre-Grouping mainly because I have limited space, so smaller trains seemed a good idea.  I also felt that scratch building a simple 2-2-2 would be a lot easier than a complex thirties engine, with outside valve-gear, etc. 

 

But ... you are right about the problems over getting things 'right'.  I keep discovering things that make it glaringly obvious how 'wrong' my modelling is, and then it gnaws away until I do something about it.  Often, it's something simple to put right, like getting the colours wrong, but not always. 

 

Of course, though,  this is my chosen hobby so, in fact, I enjoy learning more and finding that there are always more things to do

 

Mike

[coachmann]

.....It is sometimes said that modelling the pre-Grouping railway is much more difficult than modelling the more recent scene.....

Building a pre-group loco is probably a lot easier than building a late 1930's locomotive, but wait till you come to the painting....!  

Edited February 24, 2015 by coachmann

[Smiffy2]

Or fretting out the splashers?

[PGC]

Tony

 

One definition that I've found of elitism is "consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favoured group". To me, you are a member of a select group, but only because you very good at making locos and coaches, and you are someone that the majority of modellers can look up to for inspiration.

 

So, please don't worry about being called elitist, but revel in it as you've earned the right to do so through being bl00dy good at what you do.

 

Phil

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the responses, especially that from Tony. Yes, I have looked at a manufacturer's drawing after I have completed a model and realised that I had probably misinterpreted it.

 

Can I make a suggestion? Let's ban the word "elitist" on this thread. I think "perfectionist", ie one who strives after perfection, is a much better description of most of us. And completely egalitarian.

 

Jonathan

[stewartingram]

Why not take a step back, and think, "model railways are fun"?

 

Stewart

[MJI]

In view of the latest MP revelations, Thank goodness you guys don't run a constituency on the side, or we'd be paying 100 times as much

 

I converted a Lima BG to a buffet car, now lets guesss how many hours.

 

Chop side, glue on brass ones, repalce underframe with plastic, roof details, the interior, glazing.

 

Any change from 40 hours I would be amazed.

 

1 hour to make a PV cabinet. 4 goes at glazing (glue mess), 2 goes at paint (I messed up trying a lining pen).

 

No way is it worth more than £50 on Ebay

 

Priceless to me!

[westerner]

Tony, I'm pleased that I made your day, and again thanks for seeding the idea of doing it oneself.

[johnarcher]

Why not take a step back, and think, "model railways are fun"?

 

Stewart

You're right, but who said otherwise? If someone contributes to this discussion (which has been quite amiable I think), or collects RTP models, or scratchbuilds a dead scale representation of a real place surely they're all doing what they enjoy, ie having 'fun'?

None of those things are done for any other reason?

Edited February 24, 2015 by johnarcher

[Andy Reichert]

Why not take a step back, and think, "model railways are fun"?

 

Stewart

 

Wot? ALL of them???

 

Andy

Edited February 24, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[glo41f]

Gosh how this "elitism" thing is getting about. (It is on other websites and in the same sort of context.) I abhor such comments and try to see some good in every model however made. Nevertheless I am more attracted to the models which show some individuality and craft on behalf of the modeller. I would be very sad to see this thread go as I have drawn much from it and the wonderful pictures shown.There have always been "heroes" in any human endeavour and we all have our own ideas as to who they are. Tony has for me the artist eye to get the scene right as well as the practical skills required to get the mechanicals working too. LB has recreated the scene of times gone by and never to be repeated and as such it is a work of art in a similar way to the great painted landscapes of yore. I would be greatly upset if we were to have no more on this thread.

 

Long may it continue.

 

Martin Long

Stationmaster Happisburgh BR(E)

[Smiffy2]

I haven't contributed here because I really am a chimp, but I am inspired by Tony's work and agree, it is the eye of an artist that makes the difference.

I would hate to see this thread go.

[Andy Reichert]

I'm hoping one day that I will be able to post pictures here of my 00 N7's and QuintArts under construction, and seek advice as necessary.

 

Andy

[Theakerr]

Tony, don't stop.  If in any doubt about the overall popularity of this thread, just look at the number of posts.  I suggest they say it all.  I would wonder how many hits there have been, triple, quadruple the number of posts?  

Edited February 25, 2015 by Theakerr

[Tony Wright]

Gosh how this "elitism" thing is getting about. (It is on other websites and in the same sort of context.) I abhor such comments and try to see some good in every model however made. Nevertheless I am more attracted to the models which show some individuality and craft on behalf of the modeller. I would be very sad to see this thread go as I have drawn much from it and the wonderful pictures shown.There have always been "heroes" in any human endeavour and we all have our own ideas as to who they are. Tony has for me the artist eye to get the scene right as well as the practical skills required to get the mechanicals working too. LB has recreated the scene of times gone by and never to be repeated and as such it is a work of art in a similar way to the great painted landscapes of yore. I would be greatly upset if we were to have no more on this thread.

 

Long may it continue.

 

Martin Long

Stationmaster Happisburgh BR(E)

Martin, 

 

I'm not sure what to say, though I really don't deserve such praise. This is not false modesty, just realism (not modelling realism). 

 

I'm always a bit cautious of making comparisons, especially with model railways, and more especially with paintings. I was trained in art (though if I'd have been really good at it I wouldn't have been just a teacher of it - 'those who can, do; those who can't, teach). But, we do make comparisons and we have 'heroes who've influenced us. With regard to the latter, because of my interest in things eastern my early main-influences were Frank Dyer and Bert Collins. Others included John Edgson, especially because of his locos running on the Barnet Club's Peterborough North. Later, of course, came Roy Jackson and Geoff Kent. Naturally, all of these guys made things themselves.

 

I think what I'd like (by way of a tenuous comparison) is that the group of us who've built Little Bytham might wish it to be another reasonable representation of an ECML prototype. So, it might fit in with the likes of Bert Collins' Hitchin, the Thornaby Group's Biggleswade, The Barnet Club's Peterborough North, our own Stoke Summit, Graham Nicholas' Grantham, John Houlden's Gamston Bank and so on - there are many more. I hesitate to include Roy Jackson's Retford, because that's of epic proportions and in a different league altogether. What all of these have in common is that they're all built by individuals or groups - guys, and (girls) who make things for themselves. All of these show personal individuality and craft on the part of the modeller(s). I include Stoke Summit because it was the work mainly of Wolverhampton MRC members. The choice, of course, is entirely personal. 

 

Where personal individuality and craft can really show (and really be appreciated) is in the likes of John Birkett Smith's staggering rendition of Totnes in N Gauge. This is certainly not ECML and not in 4mm, but to me it's what individual modelling is all about. I hope you agree. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2015 by Tony Wright

[westerner]

Being a Great Western fan I'd really like to press the like button several times.

[queensquare]

JBS's work really is stunning, many thanks for posting those shots of Totnes Tony. As some of you may know John has been very unwell for the last couple of years but is now, thankfully, making a slow but steady recovery. Totnes has not been seen on the exhibition circuit since the Uckfield show over three years ago. We are hoping that John's health will allow us to take Totnes out next year but if you fancy a fix of John's unique modelling artistry we will be taking Ashburton to Trainwest in Melksham in April - I'd add a link but I'm on Kim's iPad thingy and I don't know how to do it!

To return to 4 mm East coast modelling, Cliff Parson and his team will also be at Trainwest with The Gresley beat. Well worth a trip to the West Country.

 

Jerry

[teaky]

JBS's work really is stunning, many thanks for posting those shots of Totnes Tony. As some of you may know John has been very unwell for the last couple of years but is now, thankfully, making a slow but steady recovery. Totnes has not been seen on the exhibition circuit since the Uckfield show over three years ago. We are hoping that John's health will allow us to take Totnes out next year but if you fancy a fix of John's unique modelling artistry we will be taking Ashburton to Trainwest in Melksham in April - I'd add a link but I'm on Kim's iPad thingy and I don't know how to do it!

To return to 4 mm East coast modelling, Cliff Parson and his team will also be at Trainwest with The Gresley beat. Well worth a trip to the West Country.

 

Jerry

http://www.trainwest.org.uk/