Wright writes.....

[Willie Whizz]

There is only one problem - Thompson was too close in age to Gresley. In history this has happened to many able people it's just fate. I believe that Thompson did act in a vindictive manner when he became CME but remember he was responsible for the B12, D16 and B16 rebuilds. As to the question of the B1 when did any CME design an engine they set the agenda and the design staff did the rest. Whilst Thompson had a thing about equal length con rods that appeared on the A2/1, A2/2 and the A2/3  this didn't extend to the A1/1 where he compromised.

 

If I recall correctly, wasn't Stanier out of the country while most of the work on the LMS Duchesses was done?  But he gets the praise ...

[Headstock]

Nice.  But far too clean, I'm afraid, from my vivid recollection of it as the only LNER pacific I ever saw 'in traffic', as a small boy - see my post a few days back.    

Hi W W,

 

I saw your post, what a brilliant story.  It sent me off looking in the cupboard for the 'Wolf of Trent Lane Junction'.  My research leads me to believe that the loco was quite clean on departing Peteborough on that day but suffered a near fatal accident

with a loaded fag ash train at Bottesford.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Headstock

[billbedford]

If I recall correctly, wasn't Stanier out of the country while most of the work on the LMS Duchesses was done?  But he gets the praise ...

 

Stainer's expertise, like Thompson's, was in organising and running works and he delegated design work to his chief draughtsman, Tom Coleman.

[Focalplane]

Maybe not any US visitors but definitely some imports - including these in 1899.  This is one of the Midland Railway ones but the GNR and GCR also had them (theirs were Baldwin built, I think this is a Schenectady built engine judging by the worksplate)

You are absolutely right about the turn of the century imports, but I was really thinking about 40 years on.  By then the loading gauge was too restrictive for off the shelf American locos, until the Allied Offensive started to take shape.

 

But the example you show is more British than American anyway - inside valve gear, tidy exterior, etc.

 

I have no idea of the statistics, but Britain almost certainly exported more locomotives than were actually designed for the domestic market - think India and Argentina to name two countries that relied on British exports of steam locomotives.

 

(As an aside, when I worked in Argentina I was told that Peron lavishly compensated the British owned railway companies when they were nationalized.  They ironically had considered pulling out anyway to cut their losses.  Esso was even paid the full price for drilling an expensive deep dry hole north of Mendoza when their concessions were taken over.  He really was a gentleman!)

 

Edit to add:

 

A typical mid-1920s 0-6-0 switcher:

 

 

Preserved non-working SP S-13 class at Ogden, Utah.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Focalplane

[46256]

Stainer's expertise, like Thompson's, was in organising and running works and he delegated design work to his chief draughtsman, Tom Coleman.

The book by E S Cox another of staniers team highlighted the work done by Mr Coleman, and others, Robin Riddles for example , on designs that will be forever associated with the great man.

 

I am intrigued by the internal politics of our former nationalised railway....one half f the country has an embarrassment of riches in its Pacific fleet....the other side sadly in need of such power.

 

I know only too well having worked for similiar organisations how such internal strife can hamper achieving its goals.. I was aware obviously of the allocation of the A2/3s to Polmadie...I think without checking, this was towards the mid sixties. I now have a faint recollection courtesy of Tony that A1s were transferred there earlier. I can't recall the circumstances..to cover short term ? Or with a view to more permanent reallocation of assets.....subsequently resisted by the donor regions ( understandably but perhaps to the detriment of the organisation as a whole? ) or nor perhaps the recipients were too entrenched with familiar designs and we're glad to be rid of them...?

 

The politics. of large organisations....often down to the " personalities" of those making the decisions

 

One last point the a1s can't have been on the service to Crewe for longer where they ? I cannot recall having seen photos of them at Crewe...a very well photographed location....as ever the variety and interest the steam age delivered...dear Santa a time machine please...

[polybear]

The story of what happened to Crownline is an interesting one. 

 

Since I don't know all the facts, I'm not going to mention names but it disappeared in 'mysterious' circumstances to say the least. Two friends ordered kits from the new owner (after Dave King sold the firm), paid their money but no kits had been received months and months later. I hope they got them in the end, but it wasn't a brilliant start. 

 

I subsequently built a PDK Schools kit, and the new owner surfaced again, claiming that the kit had been plagiarised from the erstwhile Crownline range, after my review appeared in Model Rail. Perhaps Chris Leigh might like to comment, but as far as I know Model Rail were delighted he'd got back in touch because he owed them advertising money. What happened after that I don't know, but there was talk of solicitors getting in touch with me because I must have known the kit was 'hot'. Poor Darren Sherwood was very twitchy! Oh what fun, and not the first time I've been threatened by a solicitor's letter over articles I've written. One guy said he was contemplating legal action because I HADN'T mentioned his kit when I wrote a review of another manufacturer's product for the same loco. The publishers just hooted with laughter, bless 'em. 

 

It just makes me think how many kit-manufacturers I've 'been at war with' over the last 30-odd years - not my speech marks by the way!

 

Would i be correct in thinking that the previous (original?) owner of Crownline was Dave King, who set up PDK after he sold Crownline? And i seem to recall that Mike Russell may also have been a part of Crownline with Dave (as an employee possibly?) - i recall mike telling me that he had first refusal , but became ill at about that time so had to pass up on the offer. I seem to recall that a husband and wife team purchased crownline, but a subseqjuent divorce made things very complicated......i understand that mike russell may have been offered many parts (castings maybe, or maybe even the business?) from (one of?) the new owners at a bargain price, but the alarm bells were ringing loudly so mike steered well clear. Mike went on to set up his own kit business (DMR) and very nice kits they are; he's now sold the businesss to Pheonix Paints (i hope mike is ok - does anyone know?). He was working on a Beyer Garrat when Heljan announced they were going to release one - i believe mike's version was basically finished and he was at the stage of writing the instructions. I never heard more - i did enquire several times; i wonder if it was ever finished and if so did Pheonix get it as part of the deal? I hope the kits don't go the same way as Sharman Wheels.

 

Of course much of the above could be complete nonsense and/or my memory may have failed me........

 

Brian

[Tony Wright]

That is interesting. I've read precisely the opposite stated by an ex-ER railwayman - that Thompson had no authority to determine what locos went into or out of Works and declined to make any representation to those who did.

 

The idea that the Board would take a decision on the rebuilding of a single locomotive strikes me as slightly far-fetched. Do the minutes survive?

 

Larry's comparison to football is a good one - we tend to forget what the level of interest was in railways in those days and how widely such things were discussed. What hasn't changed, of course, is the level of authority or otherwise with which we all happily pontificate. After this interval of time and with none of the protagonists still here to defend or explain themselves, we're all forced to rely on written accounts by those who felt moved to produce them - those who usually had a particular axe to grind.

This business of written accounts is very pertinent Jonathan. Certainly, the first-hand notes I spoke of earlier regarding the rebuilding of the P2s must have been seen at the time as tantamount to rebellion by those in higher authority. Factors condemning the locos' availability could have been mitigated by their being repaired at Doncaster rather than Cowlairs (which wasn't up to the job) or by less union intransigence as to where the locos were allocated.

 

The mention of the name of Edward Thompson has probably created more partisan literature than that for any CME. The likes of Rogers condemns his Pacifics out of hand and Nock has little to say in praise. Yeadon, too, is particularly scathing, and these are authors whose work carries a lot of authority. Grafton reads like a defence counsellor, and the RCTS states that in the case of the A2/2s Thompson was making the best of a bad job, so it's not all hostile.

 

But, trying to be objective, there are some undeniable facts which tend to haunt Thompson's reputation with regard to his biggest locos.

 

These might well comprise...........

 

When rebuilt into Pacifics, some of the P2s problems were cured (overheating big ends/broken crank axles, etc) but because of the rebuilding just as many different (though equally debilitating) problems were introduced (wild riding, impossibility of keeping the front-end steam tight, fractured smokebox saddle bolts and a propensity to slip). But, the end result was the rebuilt locos were unable to do the work of the originals and, as such, bad job or not, were a waste of precious time and resources. The operating authorities ended up with a loco which was useless on the road for which it was intended and was just as unreliable. Any wonder then that those who were responsible for running such huge trains between Edinburgh and Aberdeen were less than impressed with the CME?

 

The A2/1s were really unnecessary, and not anywhere near as reliable as a Kylchap V2.

 

The A2/3s, though powerful and free-running, were hampered by their poor front end.

 

The A1/1, though definitely better than an original A1 was far more unreliable than a Kylchap-fitted A3 with an A4 boiler.

 

The irony is that if Thompson had arranged for the P2s to be moved south (if he had the authority?), the last four V2s to be built with Kylchap double pots and 'converted' GREAT NORTHERN by just fitting a double chimney and A4 boiler, what a different view history would have taken.

 

I've mentioned before that professional railwaymen are not sentimental. If the A2/2 rebuilds had been a success, they would not have seen out their days at 35A and 50A. The A2/1s were, literally, 'orphans of the storm', and why was the order for 15 more A2/3s changed to a new design? Why, too, was 60113 allocated for a time as 'spare' engine at Grantham - to be returned as soon as possible?

 

I saw every type (not every one). GREAT NORTHERN could be seen every day at Retford on its Doncaster-Kings Cross principal-stations turn, just as DUKE OF ROTHESAY could be seen flying through on a northbound express. EDWARD THOMPSON was common on the Down 'Heart of Midlothian' and SUN CASTLE was a regular on fast freights. But every other principal express had Gresley or Peppercorn Pacifics on the front. Yes, there were more of them, but the Thompson Pacifics languished at the sheds where top-link work was humdrum. As I say, those who run railways are not sentimental.

 

But, I build models of what I saw and those Thompson big engines are a vital part of what I've built. I've just counted up the big Thompsons I've made for my railway (umpteen more for customers) and the numbers come out as A2/2 three, A2/1 two, A2/3 three and A1/1 one. Just about representative compared with over a dozen A1s, five A2s, a dozen A3s and eight A4s? 

 

Does it say anything about the Thompson Pacifics' popularity that none is available RTR, yet all of Gresleys and both of Peppercorn's are? 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Would i be correct in thinking that the previous (original?) owner of Crownline was Dave King, who set up PDK after he sold Crownline? And i seem to recall that Mike Russell may also have been a part of Crownline with Dave (as an employee possibly?) - i recall mike telling me that he had first refusal , but became ill at about that time so had to pass up on the offer. I seem to recall that a husband and wife team purchased crownline, but a subseqjuent divorce made things very complicated......i understand that mike russell may have been offered many parts (castings maybe, or maybe even the business?) from (one of?) the new owners at a bargain price, but the alarm bells were ringing loudly so mike steered well clear. Mike went on to set up his own kit business (DMR) and very nice kits they are; he's now sold the businesss to Pheonix Paints (i hope mike is ok - does anyone know?). He was working on a Beyer Garrat when Heljan announced they were going to release one - i believe mike's version was basically finished and he was at the stage of writing the instructions. I never heard more - i did enquire several times; i wonder if it was ever finished and if so did Pheonix get it as part of the deal? I hope the kits don't go the same way as Sharman Wheels.

 

Of course much of the above could be complete nonsense and/or my memory may have failed me........

 

Brian

Sounds about right to me Brian. 

 

Poor old Mike had also just produced a Thompson L1, just as Hornby released theirs. Who'd be a kit manufacturer?

[Focalplane]

The line north of Carlisle including shap and beattock

Fifty years ago Shap was south of Carlisle - I mapped the geology of the Lower Carboniferous in 1965 and then they built the M6 over my hard work.  But don't worry, my Home Counties spouse has always thought that the Watford Gap was near Watford!

[Tony Teague]

I notice that no-one has yet seen fit to comment on today's wagon weathering exercise - but as one of the old gits concerned, I for one had a great time!

(Oh and the wagons look pretty good to my inexperienced eye).

Tony

[billbedford]

Some years ago I conducted my own research looking for the other LMS streamliner that survived into BR days.(the books will tell you there was only one)  As a result I pulled the record cards out of the archives of all the Princess and Princess

Coronation class pacifics.  I found my streamliner but as a side note another picture started to emerge, of just how much time these locomotives spent in works and how costly they where to maintain. The Princess in paticular were very expensive

locomotives and spent long periods out of service. A clear picture emerged from their own documentation of loco costings. I was not suprised that it came as a shock to the LM men, that the LNERs locomotives and pacifics in paticular cost less to build, operate and mantain then the LM equivalents. The phrase 'hoist by your own petard' springs to mind.  The LNER locomotives where not expensive when compared to their rivals.

 

Is this research more widely available? and did it distinguish between the various LNER classes?

[Theakerr]

Since I now have El Capitan on my Mac I went out and bought a 4th generation Mac TV box (You don't need WiFi with El Capitan).  After some tribulations and swearing I was finally able to sit down and watch some u-tube videos of Little Lytham on the big screen. wow, is about all I can say.  I thought it looked good on my hit res Mac but it is so much better on a 1080 dpi wide screen.  One really gets a sense of depth.  However, I do have a couple of questions.  Are the full length coal trains representing coal trains (the first block trains) running to the new power stations that keep the lights on in London?  If so shouldn't the end doors all be facing the same way?

[Headstock]

This business of written accounts is very pertinent Jonathan. Certainly, the first-hand notes I spoke of earlier regarding the rebuilding of the P2s must have been seen at the time as tantamount to rebellion by those in higher authority. Factors condemning the locos' availability could have been mitigated by their being repaired at Doncaster rather than Cowlairs (which wasn't up to the job) or by less union intransigence as to where the locos were allocated.

 

The mention of the name of Edward Thompson has probably created more partisan literature than that for any CME. The likes of Rogers condemns his Pacifics out of hand and Nock has little to say in praise. Yeadon, too, is particularly scathing, and these are authors whose work carries a lot of authority. Grafton reads like a defence counsellor, and the RCTS states that in the case of the A2/2s Thompson was making the best of a bad job, so it's not all hostile.

 

But, trying to be objective, there are some undeniable facts which tend to haunt Thompson's reputation with regard to his biggest locos.

 

These might well comprise...........

 

When rebuilt into Pacifics, some of the P2s problems were cured (overheating big ends/broken crank axles, etc) but because of the rebuilding just as many different (though equally debilitating) problems were introduced (wild riding, impossibility of keeping the front-end steam tight, fractured smokebox saddle bolts and a propensity to slip). But, the end result was the rebuilt locos were unable to do the work of the originals and, as such, bad job or not, were a waste of precious time and resources. The operating authorities ended up with a loco which was useless on the road for which it was intended and was just as unreliable. Any wonder then that those who were responsible for running such huge trains between Edinburgh and Aberdeen were less than impressed with the CME?

 

The A2/1s were really unnecessary, and not anywhere near as reliable as a Kylchap V2.

 

The A2/3s, though powerful and free-running, were hampered by their poor front end.

 

The A1/1, though definitely better than an original A1 was far more unreliable than a Kylchap-fitted A3 with an A4 boiler.

 

The irony is that if Thompson had arranged for the P2s to be moved south (if he had the authority?), the last four V2s to be built with Kylchap double pots and 'converted' GREAT NORTHERN by just fitting a double chimney and A4 boiler, what a different view history would have taken.

 

I've mentioned before that professional railwaymen are not sentimental. If the A2/2 rebuilds had been a success, they would not have seen out their days at 35A and 50A. The A2/1s were, literally, 'orphans of the storm', and why was the order for 15 more A2/3s changed to a new design? Why, too, was 60113 allocated for a time as 'spare' engine at Grantham - to be returned as soon as possible?

 

I saw every type (not every one). GREAT NORTHERN could be seen every day at Retford on its Doncaster-Kings Cross principal-stations turn, just as DUKE OF ROTHESAY could be seen flying through on a northbound express. EDWARD THOMPSON was common on the Down 'Heart of Midlothian' and SUN CASTLE was a regular on fast freights. But every other principal express had Gresley or Peppercorn Pacifics on the front. Yes, there were more of them, but the Thompson Pacifics languished at the sheds where top-link work was humdrum. As I say, those who run railways are not sentimental.

 

But, I build models of what I saw and those Thompson big engines are a vital part of what I've built. I've just counted up the big Thompsons I've made for my railway (umpteen more for customers) and the numbers come out as A2/2 three, A2/1 two, A2/3 three and A1/1 one. Just about representative compared with over a dozen A1s, five A2s, a dozen A3s and eight A4s? 

 

Does it say anything about the Thompson Pacifics' popularity that none is available RTR, yet all of Gresleys and both of Peppercorn's are? 

 

If you model the GC then you get all of Thompsons best working along side Gresleys best, beavering away day in day out without anybody paying much notice or passing any comment.

[polybear]

Sounds about right to me Brian. 

 

Poor old Mike had also just produced a Thompson L1, just as Hornby released theirs. Who'd be a kit manufacturer?

And Mike Edge produced his very nice Clayton, just before Heljan announced they'd be releasing one in 18 months (?) or so. I recall speaking to Mike at the time ( not sure which exhibition it was). To say that he was a little miffed with Heljan for killing his sales for the next 18 months or so was an understatement. I still bought one though....

 

Brian

[billbedford]

When rebuilt into Pacifics, some of the P2s problems were cured (overheating big ends/broken crank axles, etc) but because of the rebuilding just as many different (though equally debilitating) problems were introduced (wild riding, impossibility of keeping the front-end steam tight, fractured smokebox saddle bolts and a propensity to slip). But, the end result was the rebuilt locos were unable to do the work of the originals and, as such, bad job or not, were a waste of precious time and resources. The operating authorities ended up with a loco which was useless on the road for which it was intended and was just as unreliable. Any wonder then that those who were responsible for running such huge trains between Edinburgh and Aberdeen were less than impressed with the CME?

 

The curing of the P2's problems came about as a by product of the rebuilding. It wasn't till some years later, when V2s started to derail themselves, that the real problem was identified as the Gresley swing link pony truck. For the V2s the solution was fairly simple, the pony truck was replaced by one with spring centring that was based the 8F design. But by then it was to late for the P2s.

 

There were questions raised about the efficacy of the swing link pony truck before the P2 were built, but they were over-ruled.  So the take away lesson for any autocratic head of engineering is to take note of the concerns of your junior staff as a failure to do so may put your reputation at risk.

[46256]

Fifty years ago Shap was south of Carlisle - I mapped the geology of the Lower Carboniferous in 1965 and then they built the M6 over my hard work.  But don't worry, my Home Counties spouse has always thought that the Watford Gap was near Watford!

I blame the movement of shap north of Carlisle on global warming.......or two much libation by yours truly....now where's the corkscrew...

[Horsetan]

....I hope the kits don't go the same way as Sharman Wheels.

Signs are not encouraging.

 

With regard to the fate of Crownline, Dave King "retired" (and was given something of a send-off at the Chatham Show that year), and the business was sold to a Mr. Hughes who appeared with the Crownline stand at at least two shows, then it all went quiet. As I remember it, it wasn't long before PDK started up (and the associated kit-building business "Just Like That") with pretty much the same dramatis personae behind it, i.e. Dave, Sheila, and Paul Hill, and some very familiar-looking but not-quite-identical kits. Paul's artwork bears a bit of an accidental trademark: the cabside windows on some of the Gresley kits, e.g the V2, appear to be a touch too far apart. It's a bit like looking for the late Terence Cuneo's mouse.

 

I recall being told by a now-deceased friend the story that Dave Smith, ex-Cove Models, having apparently organised Dave King's retirement send-off at some expense, wasn't over-happy when he popped up again, doing pretty much the same things he'd been doing before!

 

Mike Russell did in fact have possession of what remained of the Crownline stock of detail castings and turnings, but only very briefly. He had them on his stand at a NESCOT Epsom show round about 2000/01, and I bought some from him, but that was the last time I ever saw them. He subsequently brought out his own DMR range of brass turnings (these are the ones that Phoenix have been selling off from their trade stand since the takeover), but Mike never seemed to advertise them publicly or provide a list of what was available - I only discovered they existed when I popped in on his old trade stand at another show!

 

All very smoke and mirrors / cloak-and-dagger stuff.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Horsetan

[Headstock]

Are you sure it wasn't a Thompson pacific pulling it?

 

Heres one of Mr Derek Shores powerd and weathered vans on the working turntables outside the GC goods shed, Working signals one day sigh.

 

photo courtesy of MR D Shore.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Headstock

[asmay2002]

The Princess in paticular were very expensive locomotives and spent long periods out of service. A clear picture emerged from their own documentation of loco costings. I was not suprised that it came as a shock to the LM men, that the LNERs locomotives and pacifics in paticular cost less to build, operate and mantain then the LM equivalents. The phrase 'hoist by your own petard' springs to mind.  The LNER locomotives where not expensive when compared to their rivals.

 

The phrase "load of twaddle" also comes to mind.  The Gresley pacifics had to have their original boilers replaced and new valve gear and cylinders.  They wrecked their frames at roughly 8 year intervals and had to have them replaced because of the uneven power between the cylinders caused by the conjugated valve gear .  On what planet is this in any way cheaper than building a loco that doesn't have any of these problems?  I'm sure the CME office was very good at hiding this sort of expenditure from the head office but it isn't surprising the company went broke as they must have been spending maintenance money like water. To cap it all they didn't even manage to produce a fast service for the passengers.  Before WW2 the LMS had a greater mileage of passenger trains running at a start of stop average speed greater than 60mph - the usual definition of an express at the time - than the rest of the big four put together.  In contrast the LNER had a tiny number of fast services.and a very good PR department.

 

There was also some very dodgy reporting of locomotive mileages by J F Harrison was unearthed by "Steam Railway" magazine a few years back which debunked his claims about the A1's mileage and costs - a good engine but not as cheap as he made out. It has also been said that most of the mud slinging at Thompson can be traced back to an interview that Harrison gave to H.C.B. Rogers back in the 1950s. (Harrison apparently thought that he should have had the job rather than Thompson - there was certainly bad blood between those two).  It certainly appears that Harrison was "economical with the truth" on more than one occasion

 

The recent good work on the design of the replica P2 has shown that the original chassis dynamics were "scary" and positively dangerous.  They were an accident waiting to happen and probably weren't rebuilt a minute too soon (but oh what a magnificent sight they must have been and we can hope the new one is much better and safer than the originals). Perhaps it would have been better to just have scrapped them but it was wartime.

 

The LNER had some lovely looking engines but the hype...

[jrg1]

Bill Bedford's P2 comments remind me of Torag Beg and his criticism of the class on the Aberdeen road-"They trundled round the bends".  They should have been utilised on the GN line to Doncaster and York.  

[billbedford]

Even on the GN line they wouldn't have been any better at keeping on the rails than the V2s proved to be.

[Headstock]

The phrase "load of twaddle" also comes to mind.  The Gresley pacifics had to have their original boilers replaced and new valve gear and cylinders.  They wrecked their frames at roughly 8 year intervals and had to have them replaced because of the uneven power between the cylinders caused by the conjugated valve gear .  On what planet is this in any way cheaper than building a loco that doesn't have any of these problems?  I'm sure the CME office was very good at hiding this sort of expenditure from the head office but it isn't surprising the company went broke as they must have been spending maintenance money like water. To cap it all they didn't even manage to produce a fast service for the passengers.  Before WW2 the LMS had a greater mileage of passenger trains running at a start of stop average speed greater than 60mph - the usual definition of an express at the time - than the rest of the big four put together.  In contrast the LNER had a tiny number of fast services.and a very good PR department.

 

There was also some very dodgy reporting of locomotive mileages by J F Harrison was unearthed by "Steam Railway" magazine a few years back which debunked his claims about the A1's mileage and costs - a good engine but not as cheap as he made out. It has also been said that most of the mud slinging at Thompson can be traced back to an interview that Harrison gave to H.C.B. Rogers back in the 1950s. (Harrison apparently thought that he should have had the job rather than Thompson - there was certainly bad blood between those two).  It certainly appears that Harrison was "economical with the truth" on more than one occasion

 

The recent good work on the design of the replica P2 has shown that the original chassis dynamics were "scary" and positively dangerous.  They were an accident waiting to happen and probably weren't rebuilt a minute too soon (but oh what a magnificent sight they must have been and we can hope the new one is much better and safer than the originals). Perhaps it would have been better to just have scrapped them but it was wartime.

 

The LNER had some lovely looking engines but the hype...

 

I don't have any axe to grind as far as LMS  and LNER locomotives, I was looking at original documents that suprised me.  If I have misinterpreted

that information then maybe it is twadle but the same has been said about the "Steam Railway article"(not by me)and for the same reasons.

 

I will  try to reply to your points,

 

All Locomotives have to have their boilers replaced.

 

boilers/fire box are the single biggest cost in steam locomotives, on an on going basis, things like frames and cylinders were comparativly cheap at the time.

The boiler on a Duchess for example was more expensive to build and maintain then that on an A1, that is a simple fact.

 

I didn't look at pre war service so I couldn't comment.

 

The magazine article, see above.

 

I M O the P 2s were a  poor design and rather overated. I don't buy the hype.

 

The problems with LNER locomotives have been well documented, some of the problems with locomotives of other railways are not so well known

There is no bias in this, no Locomotive was perfect.

 

Ive just built an LMS cattle wagon, I like LMS cattle wagons.

 

hope this dosn't offend.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Headstock

[Clive Mortimore]

Since I now have El Capitan on my Mac I went out and bought a 4th generation Mac TV box (You don't need WiFi with El Capitan).  After some tribulations and swearing I was finally able to sit down and watch some u-tube videos of Little Lytham on the big screen. wow, is about all I can say.  I thought it looked good on my hit res Mac but it is so much better on a 1080 dpi wide screen.  One really gets a sense of depth.  However, I do have a couple of questions.  Are the full length coal trains representing coal trains (the first block trains) running to the new power stations that keep the lights on in London?  If so shouldn't the end doors all be facing the same way?

Hi

 

No need, usually end door unloading was done at right angles to the running line. The wagons would be put on a turn table, turned so the end door was facing the tipper and using ropes and capstans moved on to the tipper. Not all locations used end door tipping, some used the bottom doors like a hopper wagon and some tipped the whole wagon in a tippler.

[richard i]

Hi

 

No need, usually end door unloading was done at right angles to the running line. The wagons would be put on a turn table, turned so the end door was facing the tipper and using ropes and capstans moved on to the tipper. Not all locations used end door tipping, some used the bottom doors like a hopper wagon and some tipped the whole wagon in a tippler.

And at some places a wooden stick comes down with a magnet on the end and removes the load in one go from above.

 

Richard

[t-b-g]

If you model the GC then you get all of Thompsons best working along side Gresleys best, beavering away day in day out without anybody paying much notice or passing any comment.

 

This is very tongue in cheek as I know exactly what you are getting at but in my little world, if you model the GC, you get Robinsons, Pollitts and Sacres, not Thompsons or Gresleys!