RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 Watch out... someone is about to stand on a soap box. The quality of the current Gibson wheels and the product that Colin is now producing I believe is superior to that of 20 odd years ago. So my technique is still vaild, I have been using them in P4 all that time and I don't want to count the axles I have used. I will point out that Colin's product is still competitive compared to others, Markits are about 5.56 (checked on website) Alan Gibson 5.70 (from the website) Ultrascale 20.01 (from the website) (where's the ouch symbol!) I have had tyres come adrift along time ago. After a clean up of the plastic insert and clip the tyre back on! To make doubly sure that it never happens again the offender was wiped with locktite! This was a wagon wheel purchased second hand. I have never had a loco tyre come free! Quartering is a bit of an art. Yes I have had my failures... One is still blowing raspberries at me on the pending shelf! It will end up one day working properly. Generally with perseverance and a bit of thinking through the engineering there is solutions. Iain Rice's Chassis book has a great page or 2 on how to do it! P4 vs OO vs EM vs flower arranging. Ah.... time to get over it guys. Not starting arguments.. It is all a broad view, I can say live and let live. I build kits to P4 but have a RTR/ RTP OO layout... nothing like sitting at my work tray building the all singing all dancing Finney V2/ Bradwell J26... while a Hornby K1 runs past with 20 wagons and the D16 the other way with 3 Hornby coachs....I have seen P4 run terribly, as much as I have seen OO really grate! So as usual, no doubt Tony would agree with me, be complimentary (or is that diplomatic?) or say nothing! If you want a "look down the nose" come to Australia and state you model British..." OH yeah I had a triang... never ran.... all rubbish..." now look at this flat earth layout with almost no buildings running trains out of the latest box. To be fair alot of Aussie railways ran through not much! BRMA has changed this somewhat with some really high quality impressive layouts on the exhibition scene. Off soap box now... Doug is right. Go to any typical Australian model railway show and you will see several what I call "standard Australian exhibition layouts" - double track ovals with a station at the front and storage loops at the back. Now some of these are very nicely done, but many less so. Plug mode on: Come to Forestville in the first weekend in March and see at least four British-outline layouts - two in 00 and two (yes, 2!) in 0 gauge. More at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108178-north-shore-exhibition-forestville-2016/&do=findComment&comment=2200938. Plug mode off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grob1234 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Wheel wise I'd certainly be happy to try the Gibson type. Up to now I have only used Romfords, due to ease of quartering. I tend to find a few 'dry runs' fitting the axles to the wheels loosens things up enough to avoid problems attaching them. On another note, here's the J69 after a few tweaks. By no means perfect, but it goes forwards and backwards, reasonably quietly, and has excellent slow speed control, due to the 80:1 High Level kits gearbox and Mashima motor. It works despite, not because of my workmanship, and the kit chassis should take all the credit for allowing me to build it square enough to work. I have made mistakes on this build, entirely my own fault. But the next one will be better. Sorry for the poor mobile phone video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqW9KjEVoz0 Edited February 17, 2016 by grob1234 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Generations of P4 builders have got on perfectly well with friction-fit, for whom it's the only way to go. I've rarely had problems with them. Rolling stock wheels and drop-in conversion sets are invariably friction-fit. Markits will never cater for 18.83, so the "replace with Markits" remark is about as useful for us as a chocolate teapot. I can't help but detect yet another subliminal knocking of P4 builders here, for whom friction-fit is the only way to go. Next you'll be telling everyone that P4 doesn't work. A most interesting series of observations. First, my apologies. At no point did I say (as far as I can remember) which gauge the splendid chap was modelling in. It was in OO; thus, my point about replacing the the friction-fit wheels with Markits was as useful (in my view) as a teapot made from bone china, stainless steel, steel coated with enamel or glazed earthenware (or any other suitable) material. As for your statement about Markits never catering for 18.83, this might be of interest. I've been in conversation with Mark Arscott recently (see later) and he tells me that he does supply Romford axles for 18.83 gauge on request. I agree it's not well known, but P4 modellers do use them, and his wheels. Whether such an admission might result in excommunication from the relevant societies, I don't know but he also tells me his customers are very satisfied. Because I'm ignorant of the facts regarding the use of Markits wheels on P4, I won't make any silly statements, but it might be that the users skim the wheel widths down and reduce the flanges. As I say, I don't know. However, if they do, then those P4 modellers who use them enjoy all the advantages of all-metal wheels, truly concentric and with a foolproof method of fixing the wheels to the axles with perfect quartering. I find it difficult to see in my post any knocking on my part (subliminal or otherwise) of P4. I count it an immense privilege to have many marvellous friends who model in P4. Several of those friends have already visited LB, and many more will. All say what great fun it is to wind, say, an A1 up to 90 with 15 on and just watch it fly past. All 'admit' they can't do that on their railways (nor do they want to), but I do. Given the average human lifetime (which, I believe, is increasing - just), I don't believe it's possible to do what I've done, in P4 (of course, with help); that is create a reasonable impression in OO of a prototype ECML location, in my available space (32' x 12'), and with my skill-level, where one can run over 150 locomotives (mostly built by me), over 250 carriages (mostly built/modified by me) and countless freight vehicles (very few built by me). All these can be run at high speed where appropriate, without derailments or failures (not quite true all the time, I admit) . Yesterday, four dear friends and I ran my railway for hours, running every train (45 of them) at least once, plus guest locos and 'specials' and we had two 'faults'; a coach clipped a peg on the lifting section because I hadn't put the peg right down (the brass pegs maintain alignment) and a Pullman bogie derailed as I (showing off!) reversed the 11-car 'Yorkshire Pullman' into its siding at too high a speed. As for my alluding to 'skill-level' in the paragraph above, do you see that 'knocking P4? I've written a piece for the Society Journal where I've mention that (does my writing for that august publication also mean I'm knocking P4?). It's my firm belief that to successfully model in the finest gauge, a higher level of mechanical skills are needed than in EM or (certainly) OO. Certainly, more skills than I possess. That's not to say skills are not needed in the 'narrow' gauges, but, because of their relative 'crudity', they are more tolerant where running is concerned. In conversation at Doncaster, several folk thought that too many thread discussions turned into slanging matches. I hope by my posting all the above, I've not started one. I also hope that my writing of the following doesn't encourage one. I see from your post-count that you're far more prolific in that than I am. Yet, unless I'm completely mistaken (and if I am I apologise profusely in advance), I've rarely, if ever, seen postings showing your work, at least on this thread. I've posted masses of examples of my work, and have encouraged others to do the same - my thanks to all those splendid modellers who have. Anyway, on to more important things. If it's any use to others, whenever I make a six-coupled chassis I always try to drive off the centre axle. That way, the mechanism is much better balanced. I also makes the rods rigid (like the chassis), otherwise what one is trying to make is a pair of 'overlapping' 0-4-0s. Since four-coupled locos are far more difficult to get to run really smoothly than rigid six-coupled (in my experience), that's why. As for tyres coming off (drivers or carrying wheels), difficulty in quartering and wobbly wheels in general, my experience of such calamities was years ago, but I still won't use such wheels because of that - deep-seated prejudice, I admit. If Romford/Markits wheel centres offend, either use the etched covers provided or fill the slots with Plasticene or similar. While no real railway uses wheels which can be put on and taken off their axles with ease, we're not building real railways. Finally, I mentioned Markits, and I've received a bumper bundle of all sorts of new products to photograph. A report on these will appear soon in BRM, but the list includes some really exciting new parts, all beautifully-machined in brass. A back-to-back gauge for instance, with a handy handle, available for all 4mm gauges. Or a range of reversers - this one (temporarily placed) in a GN cab. Others include GWR types, LMS types, SR types (where appropriate) and BR types. And, how about these for Westinghouse pumps? Just about every type is available. There are also sprung buffers, AWS fittings, vacuum tanks, water-softening fittings, handwheels, brake standards, whistles, a ready-made return crank system and lots, lots more. My apologies for the length of this post. Edited to include the fact that all the fittings are in 4mm scale. Edited February 17, 2016 by Tony Wright 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Watch out... someone is about to stand on a soap box. The quality of the current Gibson wheels and the product that Colin is now producing I believe is superior to that of 20 odd years ago. So my technique is still vaild, I have been using them in P4 all that time and I don't want to count the axles I have used. I will point out that Colin's product is still competitive compared to others, Markits are about 5.56 (checked on website) Alan Gibson 5.70 (from the website) Ultrascale 20.01 (from the website) (where's the ouch symbol!) I have had tyres come adrift along time ago. After a clean up of the plastic insert and clip the tyre back on! To make doubly sure that it never happens again the offender was wiped with locktite! This was a wagon wheel purchased second hand. I have never had a loco tyre come free! Quartering is a bit of an art. Yes I have had my failures... One is still blowing raspberries at me on the pending shelf! It will end up one day working properly. Generally with perseverance and a bit of thinking through the engineering there is solutions. Iain Rice's Chassis book has a great page or 2 on how to do it! P4 vs OO vs EM vs flower arranging. Ah.... time to get over it guys. Not starting arguments.. It is all a broad view, I can say live and let live. I build kits to P4 but have a RTR/ RTP OO layout... nothing like sitting at my work tray building the all singing all dancing Finney V2/ Bradwell J26... while a Hornby K1 runs past with 20 wagons and the D16 the other way with 3 Hornby coachs....I have seen P4 run terribly, as much as I have seen OO really grate! So as usual, no doubt Tony would agree with me, be complimentary (or is that diplomatic?) or say nothing! If you want a "look down the nose" come to Australia and state you model British..." OH yeah I had a triang... never ran.... all rubbish..." now look at this flat earth layout with almost no buildings running trains out of the latest box. To be fair alot of Aussie railways ran through not much! BRMA has changed this somewhat with some really high quality impressive layouts on the exhibition scene. Off soap box now... Dear Doug, I entirely agree with you. Regards, Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Tony, those machined brass parts are exquisite. I'm not familiar with commercial machining, but are these machined by an individual person or is this sort of thing all controlled by computer these days? I ask out of genuine curiosity, as I can't conceive of how these things could be hand made and still turn a profit. Pun only partly intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 ... Why do some P4 advocates perceive knocking even when no denigration has taken place? ... Please - can P4 modellers just get on with it, without feeling the need to proselytise or accuse us heathens of blasphemy all of the time? Some recent research I have been doing as part of my Doctoral studies introduced me to the concept of Paranoid Gestalt. It's possible that P4 modellers may exhibit this trait, in common with many groups that hold extremely strong views. The track standards 'group' for one.... >tongue removed from cheek< 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Tony, those machined brass parts are exquisite. I'm not familiar with commercial machining, but are these machined by an individual person or is this sort of thing all controlled by computer these days? I ask out of genuine curiosity, as I can't conceive of how these things could be hand made and still turn a profit. Pun only partly intended. Mark has a computer-controlled machine which produces all his solid-brass components. I assume he makes a profit from them, though they won't be cheap. The latter said, having fought recently with a cast-metal Westinghouse pump, by the time I'd removed all the flash, filed it to something right round and drilled umpteen holes to take the various conduits, what price my time? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Doug is right. Go to any typical Australian model railway show and you will see several what I call "standard Australian exhibition layouts" - double track ovals with a station at the front and storage loops at the back. Now some of these are very nicely done, but many less so. Plug mode on: Come to Forestville in the first weekend in March and see at least four British-outline layouts - two in 00 and two (yes, 2!) in 0 gauge. More at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/108178-north-shore-exhibition-forestville-2016/&do=findComment&comment=2200938. Plug mode off. Not only that, but the station will be the one that by some tear in the fabric of time has everything that existed in the last 60 years running at the same time together. Don't get me wrong, there are some nice exhibition layouts but there are others that are others that just have lots of untouched RTR running endlessly round and round. Each to their own of course. Regards, Craig W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 All this talk of how easy quartering is on Romford/Markit wheels. Obviously no-one but me has had an axle on which the two square ends were out of alignment. Took me a while to find that out. Never did get that axle to run with its neighbours! ArthurK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Not Markits, but W & T do wheels which will fit Romford axles. I've had one of those where the square hole was differently aligned to all the others in the set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 Not Markits, but W & T do wheels which will fit Romford axles. I've had one of those where the square hole was differently aligned to all the others in the set. Mine was genuine Romford axle (from many years ago). It went into the junk box suitably mutilated so that it couldn't be used again. ArthurK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Some recent research I have been doing as part of my Doctoral studies introduced me to the concept of Paranoid Gestalt. It's possible that P4 modellers may exhibit this trait, in common with many groups that hold extremely strong views. I think you are picking on the wrong people there......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Wheel wise I'd certainly be happy to try the Gibson type. Up to now I have only used Romfords, due to ease of quartering. I tend to find a few 'dry runs' fitting the axles to the wheels loosens things up enough to avoid problems attaching them. This is where most people's troubles lie. Taking plastic wheels on and off axles will almost certainly lead to them not running true. Edited February 17, 2016 by billbedford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I have come across Romford axles that were in two parts and joined with some type of adhesive. This became apparent when inadvertently the axle was heated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2016 I noticed above (well, a couple of pages back) prices quoted for various driving wheels, isn't the Markits price per wheel? where the Gibson price is a pair of wheels plus axle (2 for 00/EM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 A pair of AG wheels & axle is £5-70. A pair of Markits wheels & axle is £11-92. So on a six-coupled loco the use of AG wheels will save you enough to pay for a Mashima. Now if Alan Gibson and Markits were to join forces and create a combined range of accurate self-quartering wheels at somewhere between the two prices, covering 00, EM and P4 wheel profiles...... Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I think you are picking on the wrong people there......... Yes, I agree Bill. I know a guy who lost me a friend because this '00' guy is so bigoted against P4 and seemingly P4 people that when we were coming back from a visit to Scalefour North (why go?), he was saying all the layouts and stock were having problems, he just kept on & on about how P4 doesn't work. My P4 friend who this guy didn't know from Adam tried to defend P4 and the work he was doing but eventually just kept quiet but fuming, I was too. I haven't visited any shows with this guy since and my friend has hardly spoken to me either.... The guy will know who he is. Anyway as far as push-fit wheels go, just like anything else it's only practice, I've been fitting this type of wheel for years and don't have a problem with them normally. Try this one. WD 2-10-0 in P4 with push-fit Sharmans all round. Did two at the same time, one was OO with the first batch of WD Markits wheels, both part compensated part sprung with the same design scratch built chassis but the worst one to get running smoothly was the OO chassis as the squares in the Markits wheels were so tight that the axle was reluctant to fit without a fight, later batches have been okay. Both locos are still earning their keep and the P4 one hauling it's normal 40 wagons without slipping a wheel on the axle or the rails. I've only ever once had serious problems with a wheel moving on an axle, three times, even when 'glued', I discovered the axle was undersize from the stated size by a few thou, a new axle cured the problem and without any Loctite either, that loco has hauled over 80 wagons so push-fit wheels can work. I've just remembered another instance where a wheel or was it two, had shifted on an axle but it was the plastic wheel centre that had split due to the 3 in1 oil the customer had been dosing the bearings with!!! Good to hear you're keeping well Tony. Dave Franks 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Some P4 modelling I've seen works very reliably, some doesn't. The same can be said of OO and other scales. I suspect it is more to do with how well (suitable) standards have been applied, how well any snags are sorted out, how well any maintenance is done, and for show layouts how well constructed they are to cope with travelling and how sympathetically they are transported. I'm not sure that there's any reason for users of one scale to categorically state that another scale doesn't work. Does it matter whether real locos had demountable wheels and what the spokes were made of, so long as the techniques and the materials used in the model suitably combine realistic appearance and practical benefits for ease of construction and for later maintenance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY@34F Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 All this talk of how easy quartering is on Romford/Markit wheels. Obviously no-one but me has had an axle on which the two square ends were out of alignment. Took me a while to find that out. Never did get that axle to run with its neighbours! ArthurK You're not the only one Arthur . I was scratching my head too , though it's many years ago . Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) The latter said, having fought recently with a cast-metal Westinghouse pump, by the time I'd removed all the flash, filed it to something right round and drilled umpteen holes to take the various conduits, what price my time? Careful, Tony - you're in danger of drifting across to the Dark Side of RTR loco fittings, instead of making them yourself... Brian Edited February 17, 2016 by polybear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Tony, those machined items look great, this is where our hobby is being influenced by modern manufacturing techniques and it can only be good for us all. It seems to me that there is and always has been a wide variety in the quality of metal castings included in kits. Without naming names, some kit makers who do their own casting are real craftsmen, some who don't cast themselves know how to source good castings from specialists. Then there is the rest. The problem for us consumers is finding out which kit makers we can trust before parting with hard earned cash. I have been doing a lot of of in-depth research in the past two years and am slowly coming to some conclusions which may work for me but may not for others (we all have different standards of acceptance, etc.) My research includes contacting the people, visiting shows when I can and reading some of the reviews (like Tony's). Those kit makers who are craftsmen generally refuse to pack a white metal casting loaded with flash. Some even add extra castings of items that are easily damaged during construction. Bravo to them. And I am also coming to the conclusion that etched nickel silver and (to a lesser degree) brass kits are the best. Well designed etch kits with slot and tab construction cost no more to make and provide a lot more customer satisfaction which should lead to repeat business. My other "gripe" is the lack of published (on-line) details from some kit makers. Today I contacted a kit maker and asked if they had PDFs of the instruction manuals for a kit I will likely buy later this year. I offered to pay a small "advance" deductible from a final purchase decision. Within minutes I got a very satisfactory reply with about 10MB of PDFs. No charge expected. I can now make a detailed assessment of whether or not the highly detailed specification is within my capability. I think I will be able to manage the kit and one of the reasons I have this confidence is that the PDFs include photos of every casting (all brass) included in the kit and the written instructions have numerous photos and 3D CAD drawings to guide assembly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium wagonbasher Posted February 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2016 I think we all should take stock and try not to damn the other 'wheel system' too quickly. Yes we have lots of kit manufacturers, active ones have been listed on this thread in the last few weeks. In addition there are many people that want to re wheel, re gauge or just improve their RTR stock All these projects are reliant on just a few companies that make wheels, axles and crank pins. Each have there own strengths and weaknesses. our view of these products are current and historical covering a long period where owners and tooling have all changed. I don't know the answer but we need the variety and the manufacturing capacity that these few manufacturers offer. Clearly from the post on this thread there are as many modellers that use them all successfully as encounter problems. These manufacturers are not big organisations that have to take the kind of criticism we throw at Hornby or Bachmann so please be gentle on the other sides view, whichever that is. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Appologies I missed that the Markits price was per wheel. So yes Polybear, your spot on. That will result in The Alan Gibson being a lot cheaper than the competition. Other than the limited range from Ultrascale and the lead times that they take to deliver, the main competition is Markits and Alan Gibson. Any how it reminds me I need to arrange another order of wheels with Alan Gibson, I need to shod a A3. Then there is a renovation project from a long gone friend who built in EM but the new owner, also a friend, needs it converted to P4! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post johndon Posted February 18, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I mentioned a few days ago that I'd watched the video that was posted of Tony constructing 3 locos and felt suitable enthused that even I should be able to solder. So, having purchased some flux and solder and had a little practice with some bass strip I decided that I may as well jump in a deep end with a pair of Penbits sprung bogies for the Bachmann Class 24. So this was my very first attempt at soldering brass on Friday night (all I've ever managed up till now was soldering (badly) droppers to track): And as of tonight, I've managed to do this: To say I'm chuffed is an understatement and I really cannot understand why I've not learnt to solder before. So, thanks once again Tony for the inspiration to give it a go... John Edited February 18, 2016 by johndon 28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grob1234 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) John, I was very much the same. Felt inspired and confident enough to have a go, and now wondering why on earth I didn't start earlier! Word of warning - it gets addictive, so watch out because shiny new kit boxes will be calling out to you!! The soldering looks good to me! Edited February 18, 2016 by grob1234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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