Wright writes.....

[Clearwater]

Tol.

 

My other "gripe" is the lack of published (on-line) details from some kit makers.  Today I contacted a kit maker and asked if they had PDFs of the instruction manuals for a kit I will likely buy later this year.  I offered to pay a small "advance" deductible from a final purchase decision.  Within minutes I got a very satisfactory reply with about 10MB of PDFs.  No charge expected.  I can now make a detailed assessment of whether or not the highly detailed specification is within my capability.  I think I will be able to manage the kit and one of the reasons I have this confidence is that the PDFs include photos of every casting (all brass) included in the kit and the written instructions have numerous photos and 3D CAD drawings to guide assembly.

I think that's a great point. Usual disclaimers about no connection etc,but browsing the brassmasters site offers a good example. One of my gripes as someone starting out in kits is that you need to buy other parts separately. Not knowing what to get can be off putting. On some of their pages on the ex- Martin finney kits, there's the ability to download instructions, pictures of the etches, suggestions on wheels and motors etc. Now I fully appreciate most kit manufacturers are small outfits wand web design may not be their forte and I wouldn't want to distract them but useful to see what can be achieved. I would say that most manufacturers I've asked queries have usually been most responsive in providing information

 

David

[Headstock]

by some tear in the fabric of time has everything that existed in the last 60 years running at the same time together.

 

Sounds very prototypical for an averagel UK steam era layout. Sadly not often reflected in the modelling.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Headstock

[johnarcher]

I am intrigued by the mention above that axles for 18.83mm are produced for Romfords, does anyone know how this works?

I can see how the flange depth and thickness could be turned down, but don't really see how one could deal with the overscale tyre width (my own sole objection to Romfords) without reducing the thickness of the whole wheel, and thus affecting the appearance of the wheel face and the fit on the Romford axle ends?

[ianwales]

Hi Tony

 

A quick question for you(or anyone else who may know the answer), I've just been reading your Green-Blue Transitions Bookazine and on page 26 the caption to the photo of the deltic on the Scotsman in 1966 states you believe this was the last summer the winged thistle headboard was carried, do you know if all the deltics were still in green at this time or is there any record of the thistle haedboard being carried by a blue deltic please?

 

Ian

[t-b-g]

I think that,most things in model railways can be made to work.

 

That includes P4, push on wheels, disguising the end of Romford axles and many other matters.

 

Some things may work better than others for particular individuals, depending on their skill levels and their willingness to spend a particular amount of time and effort to get something right.

 

If we all built our model locos just like the real railways built theirs, then I am sure that we would all be using all metal wheels and axles (no insulation), fitted to axles just like the real thing and with the quartering preset during assembly. We would assemble our axleboxes around the axles and gently lower our frames onto a ready assembled set of wheels.

 

But we don't.

 

We compromise and decide which version of the available model railway wheels we prefer and use them. They can (apart from the odd rogue) all be made to work and locos have been built that run well with pretty much all types of wheel available. So it really must come down to personal choice or using whatever the trade provides that is a good size and shape (No. of spokes etc.) to use in the loco we want to build.

Edited February 18, 2016 by t-b-g

[Michael Delamar]

Id say P4 modellers would welcome another manufacturer bringing out a range of steam wheels or even Gibson making changes. Maybe a range of locking wheels. Ive always thought the 7mm Slaters idea for locking wheels is a good idea.

 

Problem is they make the most vast range of accurate looking wheels and would be too much of an investment to do so.

 

P4 modellers tend to go for the best loco kits, chassis, motors etc so id say a lot of people would pay more for another wheel if its proved to be better.

 

Some get defensive when Gibson are critisised, sometimes it seems they know they are their only outlet and dont want Gibson to fold. So will defend them.

They are great to deal with, post quickly, attend many shows, have a full range available and priced good.

 

But ive still had wheels rust and slip on many locos.

 

I don't mind having Gibson or Ultrascale wheels on my EM converted RTR steam locos, I dont like them so much on brass chassis. I like to be able to remove the wheels several times when building a chassis.

 

I do like the peace of mind of a locked wheel, running round and round on a exhibition layout. Pulling long trains and if the loco looses adhesion and spins its wheels itll be ok.

Ive also had coach wheels melt slightly when running round all day and then coming away from the axle.

 

I use a green modelling filler to fill in Romford/Markits nuts, something I dont like to see is the but then I drill out the centre of the filler to give the hole in the axle.

[46256]

Sadly for some of these wheel makes they've come across me.....

[billbedford]

My other "gripe" is the lack of published (on-line) details from some kit makers.  Today I contacted a kit maker and asked if they had PDFs of the instruction manuals for a kit I will likely buy later this year.  I offered to pay a small "advance" deductible from a final purchase decision.  Within minutes I got a very satisfactory reply with about 10MB of PDFs.  No charge expected.  I can now make a detailed assessment of whether or not the highly detailed specification is within my capability.  I think I will be able to manage the kit and one of the reasons I have this confidence is that the PDFs include photos of every casting (all brass) included in the kit and the written instructions have numerous photos and 3D CAD drawings to guide assembly.

 

 

I think I'm with Terry Pratchett on this -- 

 

Always be wary of any item that weighs less than its operating manual.

 

But then, I would tend towards the opinion that providing copious instructions is an admission that the kit has been designed to be over complicated. But hey, I do understand that there are people that enjoy building 1000 piece bass three dimensional jigsaw puzzles.

 

 

[coachmann]

I rather suspect the halcyon days of new wheels passed in the 1980's when kit sales were at their height. It was noticeable that builders went back to Romfords after a time in the 1980's and was more about 'come-backs' which no one making their living from building wants. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by coachmann

[billbedford]

 I like to be able to remove the wheels several times when building a chassis.

 

 

I'm tempted to ask 'Why?' but realise that the answer is more likely to along the lines of 'Because we can' rather than 'Because it's a good idea'.

 

I'm well aware that there are many kits who's frames have all the sophistication of a slab of brass with holes in them. Surely there are better ways of making frames? It's not rocket science, after all just about all RTR locos have frames with drop in wheel sets.

[Barry Ten]

Being able to remove the wheels is helpful for those of us who haven't had years and years of chassis building experience. I can't speak for Michael, but as a simple example: until you've assembled the chassis, and tested it, you might not know how much sideplay you need on the wheels. At the very least, then, you might have to remove the wheels to insert or remove washers. Or you want to ensure you have a fully free-rolling chassis before you put the gearbox in. Or you want to remove the wheels before you paint the frames, or ... well, lots of reasons.

 

The most recent chassis I built, last year, was one where I managed not to remove the wheels at any point during assembly, but I bet the next one won't go so smoothly.

[Porcy Mane]

 a visit to  Scalefour North (why go?)

 ... and there's me thinking the only reason you went to Scalefour North was to listen to the NE triumvirate singing.

 

P

[polybear]

One trick is to build the chassis with removable hornblocks, which will enable a wheelset plus axle plus two hornblocks to be removed as an assembly.

 

Brian

[t-b-g]

I'm tempted to ask 'Why?' but realise that the answer is more likely to along the lines of 'Because we can' rather than 'Because it's a good idea'.

 

I'm well aware that there are many kits who's frames have all the sophistication of a slab of brass with holes in them. Surely there are better ways of making frames? It's not rocket science, after all just about all RTR locos have frames with drop in wheel sets.

 

Drop in wheel sets are an added complication that many modellers can manage perfectly well without. I include myself in that number.

 

It is an advantage to be able to take wheels on and off during construction and if wheels are available that allow the modeller to do just that, it isn't really a problem.

 

Even when the finished loco that I am working on will have "push fit" wheels I do the bulk of the assembly with a spare set of Romfords and only put the final wheels on right at the end, after the frames are painted but before attaching the brakes, so they only need to go on once.

 

The locos on Buckingham are slabs of brass (mostly 1/16" thick) with holes drilled in them. They have run superbly for, in some cases, 70 years. Some have new motors but all have the original frames and wheels. They are shaped along the bottom edge to look like the real thing where the profile might cause a visual problem. As what Tony Wright would call "layout locos" the thickness of the frames is totally invisible when they are running and I really cannot see any disadvantage. It may be a throwback to another age and some folk may say that I am disregarding many years of "progress" but that fact is that they work and work very well indeed. 

[davefrk]

<A visit to Scaleforum, (why go?).>

... and there's me thinking the only reason you went to Scalefour North was to listen to the NE triumvirate singing.

 

P

 

No, not me, the OO guy, if he doesn't like P4 why go to a show which is all about P4,  You'll probably meet him at Glasgow and I don't think he realises you model in P4. Hope you are still as thick skinned as you used to be.

 

Me? I'll go to any show you lot are performing at.....

 

See ya.

 

Dave Franks.

[Porcy Mane]

Hope you are still as thick skinned as you used to be.

 Just around the important bits.

 

P

[grob1234]

Being able to remove the wheels is helpful for those of us who haven't had years and years of chassis building experience. I can't speak for Michael, but as a simple example: until you've assembled the chassis, and tested it, you might not know how much sideplay you need on the wheels. At the very least, then, you might have to remove the wheels to insert or remove washers. Or you want to ensure you have a fully free-rolling chassis before you put the gearbox in. Or you want to remove the wheels before you paint the frames, or ... well, lots of reasons.

 

The most recent chassis I built, last year, was one where I managed not to remove the wheels at any point during assembly, but I bet the next one won't go so smoothly.

Yep, me too. Being able to remove the wheels several times as I figured my way through my first chassis was invaluable. Maybe in time I would use Gibson wheels when I'm a bit more confident with my chassis building.

 

Someone else mentioned about manufacturers websites. I've been challenged on my views on this in the past. I think it is essential for businesses to have good websites, that enable full online shopping and check out. Now, I am aware that many of our suppliers are small businesses, but if they are online, I wish their websites were better. Its a cost of doing business these days. Invariably my first port of call is a Google search. Its hard enough finding the bits and pieces you need for kit building, let alone when manufacturers aren't online or have poor websites with little or no information. That's fine for seasoned pro's but for us mere mortals, a bit of info is appreciated. So, please, get online and help us find and buy your products!! 

[Andy Hayter]

So for those that fit their wheels and leave them there forever, how do you paint the chassis?  

And in case the answer is paint it before fitting the wheels, how do you then solder the details like brakes onto a painted chassis?

Or if the answer is, oh we drop the hornblocks and all out of the chassis with the wheels, how do you expect those of us with less than dextrous fingers and perfect eyesight to build a fully sprung chassis?  I have every respect for those that can.  I can't.  And of course it assumes your kit was designed so that horn blocks can be fitted - sprung or soldered forever.

 

Please note this is not getting at anyone, or any group or any scale gauge combination.  These are genuine questions because I would love to not have to disassemble everything and I am maybe missing a trick or two.

[Shed Driver]

I use the Ian Rice method and have never had any problems  with it.  I started using this method about 20 years ago.  Mask of the gear box  and spray the chassis, wheels,  everything while under power.  Then clean the tires with a glass fiber brush

 

simple and it works

 

Norman

[billbedford]

So for those that fit their wheels and leave them there forever, how do you paint the chassis?  

And in case the answer is paint it before fitting the wheels, how do you then solder the details like brakes onto a painted chassis?

Or if the answer is, oh we drop the hornblocks and all out of the chassis with the wheels, how do you expect those of us with less than dextrous fingers and perfect eyesight to build a fully sprung chassis?  I have every respect for those that can.  I can't.  And of course it assumes your kit was designed so that horn blocks can be fitted - sprung or soldered forever.

 

How do Hornby or Bachmann do these things? The answer is that all the components are made as sub-assemblies and bolted or clipped together once each part is finished and painted. Even the motors are bolted in separately so that the frames can be test run before fixing them in. And you will note that none of these locos are fully sprung.

 

Now I realise as well as anyone else the people can only build the kits that they can buy, but I do get tired of an attitude that says that the design of loco kits was perfected some 30 years ago and there is no need to change it. And I would suggest that frames like this one are probably easier to build that most other 0-6-0s I've seen, and while they are fully sprung they have no need of particularly dextrous fingers, perfect eyesight or even a jig. 

[t-b-g]

So for those that fit their wheels and leave them there forever, how do you paint the chassis?  

And in case the answer is paint it before fitting the wheels, how do you then solder the details like brakes onto a painted chassis?

Or if the answer is, oh we drop the hornblocks and all out of the chassis with the wheels, how do you expect those of us with less than dextrous fingers and perfect eyesight to build a fully sprung chassis?  I have every respect for those that can.  I can't.  And of course it assumes your kit was designed so that horn blocks can be fitted - sprung or soldered forever.

 

Please note this is not getting at anyone, or any group or any scale gauge combination.  These are genuine questions because I would love to not have to disassemble everything and I am maybe missing a trick or two.

 

It is something that bothered me until I came up with a way round it. I used to get a tiny brush and paint between the spokes and then turn the wheels slightly until I eventually got all the area behind the wheels paintd but it was a bit of a faff.

 

Then I went on to building the frames, spraying (or brush painting) them and then scraping the paint off the ends of the wire brake hanger mountings.

 

Another way is just to paint the bits behind the wheels before assembly and then do the rest later.

 

More recently, I have started to chemically blacken frames as it has several advantages, not least that it doesn't come off in the same way that paint can if something rubs against it and it doesn't blister if you get the frames hot when soldering bits on afterwards.

 

All these appeal to me more than masking and spraying a completed mechanism. I just know that would go wrong for me and I would get paint where I don't want it.

[richard i]

I use the Ian Rice method and have never had any problems  with it.  I started using this method about 20 years ago.  Mask of the gear box  and spray the chassis, wheels,  everything while under power.  Then clean the tires with a glass fiber brush

 

simple and it works

 

Norman

It sounds terrifying and brings to mind an e bay purchase which had been put on as the owner had sprayed it all and it was all gummed up. The only option, a full strip down of the chassis, a clean up and re assembly.

Richard

[Michael Edge]

So for those that fit their wheels and leave them there forever, how do you paint the chassis?  

And in case the answer is paint it before fitting the wheels, how do you then solder the details like brakes onto a painted chassis?

Or if the answer is, oh we drop the hornblocks and all out of the chassis with the wheels, how do you expect those of us with less than dextrous fingers and perfect eyesight to build a fully sprung chassis?  I have every respect for those that can.  I can't.  And of course it assumes your kit was designed so that horn blocks can be fitted - sprung or soldered forever.

 

Please note this is not getting at anyone, or any group or any scale gauge combination.  These are genuine questions because I would love to not have to disassemble everything and I am maybe missing a trick or two.

I paint the frames with wheels and brakes fitted, mask off the gearbox and motor if these are fitted at this stage. After painting clean the wheel treads and fit any motion. As has been suggested by t-b-g I keep spare sets of Romford wheels for initial setting up and only fit the Gibson wheels once.

[Porcy Mane]

How do Hornby or Bachmann do these things? The answer is that all the components are made as sub-assemblies and bolted or clipped together once each part is finished and painted. 

 

Not where RTR weathering is concerned. I recently bought a new Hornby K1 for a very reasonable £60.00 after reading about a retailers sale on RMweb. The fact it had cosmetically poor factory weathering applied mattered not as the loco was for tinkering with and the chassis would probably be replaced due to a re-gauge with the body being repainted.

 

I automatically wanted to try the standard loco out as delivered but found it wouldn't run at all. It took all of about ten seconds to work out why.  Hornby's resident weathering airbrusher had managed to paint the loco and tender wheels around the full circumference of the tyre. See the tender wheel in the attached photo. Perfect insulation.

Ten minutes with a cotton bud & some cellulose thinners had things running as expected. So much for testing sub assemblies prior to final construction.

 

P

[johnarcher]

. As has been suggested by t-b-g I keep spare sets of Romford wheels for initial setting up and only fit the Gibson wheels once.

This is a useful method, I did it a couple of times in 00n3. I wonder if this is what some people are using the 18.83 Romford axles mentioned earlier for?

I've also used the 'leave it unpainted (just primed) until it works, then poke little brush between spokes' method.

Edited February 18, 2016 by johnarcher