Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Having read Tony's very pessimistic view of the future I have had some thoughts of my collection..........................I am and will have enjoyed it, so what if my heirs get nothing for it. The blighters take no interest in it at the moment so they will not want it when I am gone so why should they get anything for it.

 

Remember any collection, be it stamps, toys, old battered furniture, jewelry etc. is only worth something if there is someone wanting to buy it. Better still two people wanting to buy it. Without a buyer it is only fit for landfill.

I wonder if I am being pessimistic. Perhaps it's better to be that way. After all, if one is proven right when everything turns to cr*p, there's the smugness factor. If one is proven wrong (as I frequently am), then, maybe, things aren't as bleak as they might appear. Bleak enough, though, to believe that I'll be lucky if I get just the current cost of the bits for those locos I've illustrated today; unless I can get at least two folk interested.

 

As I said, I don't ask to be paid for helping widows/charities, but what if locos like those had to fixed by a full-time professional? The prices would be far too prohibitive.

 

I like your style, but don't forget it's your children who'll be choosing your (eventual) care home! 

[The Stationmaster]

Having read Tony's very pessimistic view of the future I have had some thoughts of my collection..........................I am and will have enjoyed it, so what if my heirs get nothing for it. The blighters take no interest in it at the moment so they will not want it when I am gone so why should they get anything for it.

 

Remember any collection, be it stamps, toys, old battered furniture, jewelry etc. is only worth something if there is someone wanting to buy it. Better still two people wanting to buy it. Without a buyer it is only fit for landfill.

 

That is exactly the case Clive.  At auction the usual situation is that good condition items, especially those with a 'good' reputation (e.g a Goddard painted coach) will fetch a decent price although in the case of most model railway stuff what it fetches is likely to be less than the original purchaser paid for it.  The same applies to kit built locos - known to come from a recognised builder and with a paint job by 'a name' will command a good price; built (just as well) by A.N. Other and painted just as well, or better, by another A.N. Other and it will go for less for exactly the same loco.  But otherwise it is relatively straighforward lots of X number of locos (r-t-r) estimated at c.£35 each to get a lot estimated price or, as i saw a couple of years ago, a lot of a dozen kit built six coupled locos all built and painted to a good standard estimated at £80-100 and not even attracting any bids.  

 

it's all about perceived value and perceptions about how value will be held in the future but as anyone with auction experience will tell you of anything 'it all depends on the room on the day' - and that can make a tremendous difference.

[St Enodoc]

Having read Tony's very pessimistic view of the future I have had some thoughts of my collection..........................I am and will have enjoyed it, so what if my heirs get nothing for it. The blighters take no interest in it at the moment so they will not want it when I am gone so why should they get anything for it.

 

Remember any collection, be it stamps, toys, old battered furniture, jewelry etc. is only worth something if there is someone wanting to buy it. Better still two people wanting to buy it. Without a buyer it is only fit for landfill.

Clive, I think you are right up to a point but the arrangements I have put into place are intended to minimize the risk of my heirs being ripped off by third parties. For example, if something of mine is likely to sell at auction for $100 I would like to think that my heirs will get that rather than the $10 paid to them by a dealer who then pockets the other $90.

[St Enodoc]

That is exactly the case Clive.  At auction the usual situation is that good condition items, especially those with a 'good' reputation (e.g a Goddard painted coach) will fetch a decent price although in the case of most model railway stuff what it fetches is likely to be less than the original purchaser paid for it.  The same applies to kit built locos - known to come from a recognised builder and with a paint job by 'a name' will command a good price; built (just as well) by A.N. Other and painted just as well, or better, by another A.N. Other and it will go for less for exactly the same loco.  But otherwise it is relatively straighforward lots of X number of locos (r-t-r) estimated at c.£35 each to get a lot estimated price or, as i saw a couple of years ago, a lot of a dozen kit built six coupled locos all built and painted to a good standard estimated at £80-100 and not even attracting any bids.  

 

it's all about perceived value and perceptions about how value will be held in the future but as anyone with auction experience will tell you of anything 'it all depends on the room on the day' - and that can make a tremendous difference.

You're right Mike - items are only worth what someone is prepared to pay, but as I said above I would like as much of that amount whether it be $10 or $100 to go to my heirs rather than a third party.

[sandra]

Tony, I think you are right to be pessimistic about the future value of kit built locomotives, particulaly models of prototypes that are available as ready to run models.

 

Last weekend I was at the Alexandra Palace exhibition and I bought an OO model of a Stanier 2-6-0 5MT which I think was built from a Kays kit. I believe that Bachmann are soon to release of model of this locomotive. When I got it home I found that it ran beautifully, true the body does need some attention but only of a minor kind. However the locomotive only cost £20 and it was together with a number of similar kit built locomotives, all of which were of a similar price and seemed to be reasonably well built. These were what you could call "layout locomotives" they were not suitable for a display case but would be quite happy on most peoples layouts.

 

I think that in the future only the most exceptional kit built locomotives, such as you build, will command a high price, I think those built by the "average enthusiast" will probably not command more than similar secondhand ready to run models.

 

Sandra

[jrg1]

Faberge eggs apart, it is difficult to predict the value of things in the future.  We can all remember the junk that Franklin Mint flogged as collectable (Anyone for a complete set of limited edition hand crafted pewter Waterloo figures individually painted by master craftsmen..........I thought not).  

What makes the competently built K's Black 5 worth peanuts is the fact that the mechanism is obsolete and the model is margarine metal-fine for the sixties-hopelessly outdated against RTR today.

What may be considered valuable in the future will be the likes of small batch special commissions, as in America and here in Australia, and the work of recognised craftsmen-Coachman has just been mentioned as an example.  I wonder what a competently built brass model such as a DMR Class B2 would realise-a quality product of a rare prototype with little chance of RTR production?

Also, here in Austalia, various groups have a valuation and disposal service-which is where my collection is going.

[Norwenglish]

I find it interesting that the subject of deceased modeller's collections have come up, as I have only recently returned from France where I spent a week sorting through my late grandfathers collection. Although it has made me realise and understand people's concern about their collections when the time comes!

 

Unfortunatey the generation between him and me are quite the opposite of railway enthusiasts and just wanted to get it all sold off as quick as possible, which meant all I could do was label what each item was and pack it for shipping back to the UK to be sold, apart from the few things I could save for my collection with my 20kg luggage limit for the flight home to Norway.

 

I also have to admit I felt quite sad that I had no opportunity to go through everything and check that they ran well and fix any problems should they arise, and seeing some of the items last week on ebay where the listing was a half hearted attempt at selling them only listing the name and gauge often not including information that I had written down for them, so I can imagine alot of things have ended up in the hands of 'dealers' who see an opportunity of putting a decent description on them and making better money.

 

On the matter of what things are worth, they kept finding things that they thought were old, rare or valuable only to be disappointed when they were informed that it was worth alot less than they thought, could this be a common attitude among non-enthusiasts who are sorting through collections? They learnt quite fast that they can't slap the word 'vintage' or 'retro' on Tri-ang locomotives and expect to see the money flood in.

 

I can imagine that my case isn't an isolated one though, and that there are many other collections that have just been sold off as quick as they can without proper care and attention being given to them, or where the help of those that know a thing or two has been offered, it has been refused or only partly made use of.

 

Also on the subject of the things built by well known craftsmen being worth more than ones built by relative unknowns, is there a possibility that in decades to come that their names may fade into obscurity? Will there be other craftsmen who's names become as known and add value if the kitbuilding side of the hobby becomes as much of an obscurity as some predict?

 

Stuart

[wagonbasher]

I find it interesting that the subject of deceased modeller's collections have come up, as I have only recently returned from France where I spent a week sorting through my late grandfathers collection. Although it has made me realise and understand people's concern about their collections when the time comes!

 

Unfortunatey the generation between him and me are quite the opposite of railway enthusiasts and just wanted to get it all sold off as quick as possible, which meant all I could do was label what each item was and pack it for shipping back to the UK to be sold, apart from the few things I could save for my collection with my 20kg luggage limit for the flight home to Norway.

 

I also have to admit I felt quite sad that I had no opportunity to go through everything and check that they ran well and fix any problems should they arise, and seeing some of the items last week on ebay where the listing was a half hearted attempt at selling them only listing the name and gauge often not including information that I had written down for them, so I can imagine alot of things have ended up in the hands of 'dealers' who see an opportunity of putting a decent description on them and making better money.

 

On the matter of what things are worth, they kept finding things that they thought were old, rare or valuable only to be disappointed when they were informed that it was worth alot less than they thought, could this be a common attitude among non-enthusiasts who are sorting through collections? They learnt quite fast that they can't slap the word 'vintage' or 'retro' on Tri-ang locomotives and expect to see the money flood in.

 

I can imagine that my case isn't an isolated one though, and that there are many other collections that have just been sold off as quick as they can without proper care and attention being given to them, or where the help of those that know a thing or two has been offered, it has been refused or only partly made use of.

 

Also on the subject of the things built by well known craftsmen being worth more than ones built by relative unknowns, is there a possibility that in decades to come that their names may fade into obscurity? Will there be other craftsmen who's names become as known and add value if the kitbuilding side of the hobby becomes as much of an obscurity as some predict?

 

Stuart

I used to work with a man who's hobby was photography.

 

He bought me some pictures of models he had in his attic that he had kept since his childhood ( probably late 60's early 70's) many in boxes

 

He was disappointed when I explained that they were worth very little.

 

I explained in a way he would understand:

 

If you had a camera from the 1920's it would have a value as a collectors piece for its rarity.

I said I presume you have an expensive modern camera with all the latest functions... Yes it was worth thousands..

 

I then said you could have a film camera, a top of the range Nikon from the early seventies and still capable of taking fantastic images but It's worth nothing!

 

It's Not the latest and not collectable - yet

 

He got it.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

Faberge eggs apart, it is difficult to predict the value of things in the future.  We can all remember the junk that Franklin Mint flogged as collectable (Anyone for a complete set of limited edition hand crafted pewter Waterloo figures individually painted by master craftsmen..........I thought not).  

What makes the competently built K's Black 5 worth peanuts is the fact that the mechanism is obsolete and the model is margarine metal-fine for the sixties-hopelessly outdated against RTR today.

What may be considered valuable in the future will be the likes of small batch special commissions, as in America and here in Australia, and the work of recognised craftsmen-Coachman has just been mentioned as an example.  I wonder what a competently built brass model such as a DMR Class B2 would realise-a quality product of a rare prototype with little chance of RTR production?

Also, here in Austalia, various groups have a valuation and disposal service-which is where my collection is going.

I think it was a Stanier 2-6-0 which Sandra mentioned. Though she said it ran well, she didn't mention what the drive was or whether it had K's wheels. If it were all K's, then it's rare to find one that goes well in my experience. If it has a modern motor/gearbox and decent wheels, I'm not sure if that would be classed as obsolete. 

 

Though it did have an obsolete motor/wheel combination, the K2 I pictured yesterday now has a state-of-the-art drive system (motor/gearbox-wise) and may I tell you it's far more powerful than anything near it in RTR - the nearest I suppose is Bachmann's K3? It also runs far smoother than any RTR K3 I've seen, so 'obsolescence' is a relative term. I also mentioned a Hornby FLYING SCOTSMAN recently. Though it ran smoothly, and did haul 12 Bachmann cars eventually, its starting prowess was far inferior to my kit-built 60103. So, with the greatest of respect, kit-built locos (even those from the '60s) have the edge over RTR any day in my book, haulage-wise; in that respect, they are far from obsolete in comparison. That said, I do admit, that how they perform is up (or down) to the builder, not some distant factory, which (if recent correspondence elsewhere is anything to go by) doesn't always get it right, either.

 

You're very right, though, in highlighting how little kit-built locos can go for. As Sandra has found, there are bargains galore out there. Good for the buyer, but not for the builder/owner/seller.

 

Finally, over the Easter weekend I'll be one of the demonstrators at the York Show. Among some top exponents in their various crafts, you'll find me just sneaking in, showing how I build my locos and stock - nothing sophisticated, just my usual methods. I hope I can show anyone interested how I do things, and maybe even teach one or two visitors a thing or two (if that's not too pompous). I know it's a different thing, but I'll be among a group of modellers who are actually making things - keeping the craft aspect of the hobby alive. None of us will have an RTR/RTP item on our stands, unless it's been detailed/modified/improved/altered in some way (for there is value in that, too). RTR stuff in the main will be the province of what are sometimes referred to as 'box-shifters'. Though entirely necessary, and I wish them well, if that kind of stand becomes more and more prevalent because of the inexorable rise of RTR and the demise of making things, I'm not sure if that's completely a good thing for the future of the hobby - at least for me. But, I admit, I am a pessimist.

 

Thanks for your comments.  

[Tony Wright]

Tony, I think you are right to be pessimistic about the future value of kit built locomotives, particulaly models of prototypes that are available as ready to run models.

 

Last weekend I was at the Alexandra Palace exhibition and I bought an OO model of a Stanier 2-6-0 5MT which I think was built from a Kays kit. I believe that Bachmann are soon to release of model of this locomotive. When I got it home I found that it ran beautifully, true the body does need some attention but only of a minor kind. However the locomotive only cost £20 and it was together with a number of similar kit built locomotives, all of which were of a similar price and seemed to be reasonably well built. These were what you could call "layout locomotives" they were not suitable for a display case but would be quite happy on most peoples layouts.

 

I think that in the future only the most exceptional kit built locomotives, such as you build, will command a high price, I think those built by the "average enthusiast" will probably not command more than similar secondhand ready to run models.

 

Sandra

It's very kind of you, Sandra, to imply that I make 'the most exceptional kit built locomotives', though that's not true. False modesty apart, I build successful 'layout locos'; those which do the equivalent job as their prototypes. With one exception, every one of my customers has been entirely happy with the locos I've built for them, so they must work (all my friends are completely baffled as to why the one loco was rejected, bless them). . 

 

It's just that having taken thousands of photos of some of the finest model locos ever made (in all scales and gauge), I know what the most exceptional locos, kit-built or otherwise, really look like. 

[polybear]

It gets worse in my view, particularly for kit-built items. I was saddened by how little Geoff Brewin's locos actually made. Things like his King (with his prototype coreless motor/gearbox in it) which eventually sold for less than the cost of the bits. Or his A4 which only did slightly better. Why? Because fully-finished RTR equivalents just knock the kit-built market every time. 

 

Hi Tony,

Personally I suspect that buying Kit-built locos s/h (as opposed to loco kits s/h) is virtually the same as buying RTR s/h; unless the loco is of a class not available in RTR and built and painted to a very high standard (ideally by a recognised "name") then prices are likely to be disappointing.  High quality kit-built locos of recognised classes also sell, but prices are often more disappointing.

If a kit-built loco is available RTR then I suggest that many will prefer to buy the RTR version s/h, since (if it is a recent release) it is likely to be better detailed and much better finished. S/h kit-built can also be a much riskier buy - pretty photos on Ebay can hide a multitude of sins.  Beware the ad which says "condition as photo"......

Those interested in a kit-built loco will often (almost always?) prefer it as an unstarted kit - if it comes with wheels, g/box and motor included then so much the better. 

 

With regard to Executorship (is there such a word?) of  model railway collections then I understand that the 0 Gauge Society offer such a service for a percentage; I'm not aware of any formal scheme for 4mm scale though, though I believe the EMGS (and S4Soc.?) have at times sold items from Estates at their relevant exhibitions, or via Newsletter Ads.

It would be nice if such a scheme could be set up on a formal basis, for the selling of 4mm Layouts and kit-built items to new homes; items that modellers have put their heart and soul into.  Covering RTR as well would I suspect be such a huge undertaking (there's just too much out there) that it just wouldn't be practical.

 

Brian

Edited March 24, 2016 by polybear

[jwealleans]

I suspect be such a huge undertaking (there's just too much out there) that it just wouldn't be practical.

A single example, if I may? I have been named as a friend's railway executor along with another mutual friend. Sound forward planning IMHO and although not a pleasant task nor one I look forward to, something which I can at least do to ensure his collection goes to good homes and to the benefit of his heirs.

 

Anyway, said mutual friend in his capacity as a member of a local club was asked to handle the disposal of the railway effects of a deceased member. This turned out to be over 40 of the 50L plastic storage boxes one can buy, ranging from boxed and unopened Bachamnn Collectors club items to half-rebuilt RTR items, sets of kits, mixtures of kits and bits and all kinds of unfinished projects.

 

He ended up taking a table at a swapmeet at Shildon to sell most of the RTR and is still gradually working through and selling off the rest. It's been a huge effort just to collect, catalogue, price and then sell for no personal reward at all. It's not something I'd fancy taking on full time and if you're looking to pass maximum value back to the seller, without taking a trader's kind of margins, not something which would come anywhere near covering its costs.

[Horsetan]

Been there. Got the T-shirt. Still there.

[Clearwater]

A couple of years ago my father died and I had the sad task of sorting out his model railway. Most of his stuff was rtr in origin, one or two wrenn items that have some value and a few kit built locos, by others not him although he had a few part built kits (some of his kit built locos were purchased at modellers Mecca - I wonder if any were built by Tony? There's one GWR ex-rod that runs very well...).

 

Sadly when he died, his railway had been neglected for a while and some of the stock was not in good condition - broken off chimneys, bent coupling rods, water damage etc. I'm not sure what had happened in his shed but it was pretty sad to clear up and box up the items. I've not yet finished as I have some storage issues in my house to resolve! Most of his stock has minimal intrinsic value yet for obvious reasons, I've not sold or disposed of any of it. I'm sure like most here my father would not have wanted the stock sold for buttons or, worse, skipped. If that's the case, it makes sense to catalogue / explain to your executors what items are in advance of the inevitability. Particularly if there are specific items that do have value or you'd like to go to particular people.

 

Whilst like everyone on here, I enjoy a good bargain, sometimes when I've brought a second hand out of print railway book, I do wonder about its previous owner...

 

David

[96701]

I've now managed to shift most of Geoff Brewin's legacy. First things to go and go easily were r-t-r locos because the second hand value of relatively new r-t-r is pretty constant. The coaches went with alacrity until it came to parcels coaches and one sleeper which are still to be advertised. The kit built locos have been a little different and have commanded all sorts of different prices. Whilst the majority seem to have commanded prices that don't match the initial cost of components let alone the cost of putting them together and painting them, Geoff did not build them to realise pounds pence. He built them to run them and enjoy watching trains go by, so in that respect it was 'mission accomplished'. Any money made from the sale of his stock is for the benefit of others, and he asked me to look after the sale which I have done to the best of my ability with the assistance and support of many.

 

Just because some people have got a very good locomotive for the price is neither here nor there because some money has been made without having to engage with 'the trade'.

 

My advice is to keep building loco kits for yourself. I find they run far better than any r-t-r and will continue to do so long after your demise (unless they end up in a skip, of course).   

[Tony Wright]

I've now managed to shift most of Geoff Brewin's legacy. First things to go and go easily were r-t-r locos because the second hand value of relatively new r-t-r is pretty constant. The coaches went with alacrity until it came to parcels coaches and one sleeper which are still to be advertised. The kit built locos have been a little different and have commanded all sorts of different prices. Whilst the majority seem to have commanded prices that don't match the initial cost of components let alone the cost of putting them together and painting them, Geoff did not build them to realise pounds pence. He built them to run them and enjoy watching trains go by, so in that respect it was 'mission accomplished'. Any money made from the sale of his stock is for the benefit of others, and he asked me to look after the sale which I have done to the best of my ability with the assistance and support of many.

 

Just because some people have got a very good locomotive for the price is neither here nor there because some money has been made without having to engage with 'the trade'.

 

My advice is to keep building loco kits for yourself. I find they run far better than any r-t-r and will continue to do so long after your demise (unless they end up in a skip, of course).   

Thanks Phil,

 

What you've done is to be commended.

 

At least Geoff's locos/carriages have gone to good new homes and will be used. 

 

As you say, he built them for himself, not to make a profit. He leaves a tremendous legacy, not least in his encouraging folk to make things for themselves. 

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst like everyone on here, I enjoy a good bargain, sometimes when I've brought a second hand out of print railway book, I do wonder about its previous owner...

 

David

 

I know exactly where one of my 'books'  (a GWR Service Timetable in fact) came from as a past owner wrote his name on the cover - E.T. MacDermot.  I'm sure that name didn't affect the price and I didn't notice it before buying it (at auction) but it is rather nice to have something which is not only interesting and useful (last year of the broad gauge) but which also obviously played a part in research for a much acclaimed railway history.

Edited March 24, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[2750Papyrus]

I know exactly where one of my 'books'  (a GWR Service Timetable in fact) came from as a past owner wrote his name on the cover - E.T. MacDermot.  I'm sure that name didn't affect the price and I didn't notice it before buying it (at auction) but it is rather nice to have something which is not only interesting and useful (last year of the broad gauge) but which also obviously played a part in research for a much acclaimed railway history.

 

Some years ago, I bought a history of the battlecruiser Renown.  A plate inside recorded that the book had been bought from the library of John Entwistle (the Who bassist), and inside was a dedication to him from relatives, one of whom served in the ship from before the war till 1941, and included his Service no.

 

Two interesting links in one!

[Mallard60022]

Final point on the 'execution' of my left overs. When I decided quite recently to build myself a layout after years of procrastination, I also decided that it was to be mostly built with the intention of almost all being total scrap at 'disposal'.  The structure and track will be rubbish, however the stock and electrical stuff and some fittings will hopefully help someone and if not, it goes to a charity. 

That's enough on that and thanks for your thoughts and comments.

Phil

[Horsetan]

....My advice is to keep building loco kits for yourself. I find they run far better than any r-t-r and will continue to do so long after your demise (unless they end up in a skip, of course).   

 

Forget the skip. If you've elected to be buried, then some of your work can be buried with you to keep you occupied in the afterlife (if there is one).

[teaky]

Forget the skip. If you've elected to be buried, then some of your work can be buried with you to keep you occupied in the afterlife (if there is one).

Perhaps a plywood coffin trimmed with track? 

Can't beat a bit of recycling.

[sandra]

Tony, when I wrote I had only given the Stanier 2-6-0 a very brief test run but I have now had chance to examine it more closely. Whilst I think the loco and tender are from Kays, I do not think the chassis is by them, it has brake gear and it does not consist of the rectangular pieces of brass which were usually provided in their kits. Also it has Romford wheels and a Portescap motor. The locomotive is in LMS livery and it has been weathered. The only really bad feature of the model is that the tender has a Triang type coupling.

 

I must admit, personally, I do not care what the locomotives I build are worth. I enjoy building them and their value is in the pleasure gained from having transformed a collection of brass or white metal pieces into a working locomotive which can then be put to use on a model railway. I certainly think we should build locomotives because it is a pleasant and challenging thing to do, not because they may be worth a lot of money at some time in the future.

 

Sandra

[mullie]

My layouts and stock are built for the enjoyment of my hobby. My wife and two daughters won't have any interest and as said above most of it won't be worth much. However, building and developing my layouts and my bank of skills over the last 32 years, 18 of them actively is worth more than money, it has saved my sanity and long may it continue.

 

Martyn

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I fancy a Viking funeral....

 

stick me in an old 16t tonner, load it up with old baseboards and my accumulated model trains, railway books magazines and assorted junk, set light to the lot and then give the wagon a push and fly shunt/wave me off into the afterlife distance 

 

mind out for trap points though, we don't want any embarrassing derailments on my final journey please

[polybear]

Forget the skip. If you've elected to be buried, then some of your work can be buried with you to keep you occupied in the afterlife (if there is one).

Get cremated and that etched brass kit you've built will be reduced to a kit again, just waiting to be rebuilt.

Whitemetal kits could be another story, however...