Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

I love the fact you can make infinite adjustments. No glue can do that after its gone off. I also love the almost instant drying time too.

EXACTLY the reasons why I love soldering so much!

 

I would also add the ability to use it as a filler to get a nice smooth joint, particularly at corners.

[corneliuslundie]

Tony, I hope you don't mind my hijacking your thread but I need some input from real modellers, the kind who use drawings and make things rather than open their wallets, and therefore read this thread.

I am currently editing a book for the HMRS and there will be a series of full page drawings of various kinds of wagon brake gear (sorry, Tony, I don';t think you will get very excited by them). To fit the A4 page they can be either 10mm/ft or 3/8in/ft.

My question please to you all is which scale is preferable. 10mm is slightly larger and relates better to 4mm/ft. On the other hand 3/in is twice size for S gauge and, I believe, also Gauge 1.

 

On the subject under discussion, I have to admit that most of my wagons are plastics, whether kit or scratch built. i have four or five etched kits and they have been a mixed bunch. However, I am currently replacing some of the metal brake gear on a tender because it has split frames and there needs to be a cross shaft at the rear, so horses for courses, as the loco brake gear will be all soldered. (perversely it is not split frame!).

Jonathan

[jwealleans]

I'd have said the larger scale. Can it also be blindingly obvious whether it's shown inverted or the right way up? You can never underestimate the stupidity of even the most experienced modeller.

[Tony Wright]

 

Tony W in post 11826: The notes state that only one of these vans had electric lights inside, so I've left the dynamo and battery box off this one. 

 

Hi Tony

 

Admittedly the notes are open to interpretation (and the font is tiny), but they seem to imply that only one D86 was built with electric lighting, but "it is likely that all were converted to electric lighting after building". Nothing is said of lighting arrangements for the D87 variant of the kit.

 

Interestingly the Chivers notes and the Isinglass notes for the Pigeon van differ over the position of the dynamo and brake cylinder, whether they should be both on the same (non ducket) side (Isinglass), or on opposite sides (Chivers).

 

The Chivers notes also say that most of the Pigeon vans in later life were painted all over brown by the LNER, presumably during the war, thus losing their black ends.  Would this have also been the case for the D86/87 vans too?

 

Its a pity both Isinglass kits don;t have brake blocks supplied- not easy to fit them to rocking W-irons if the unit is already attached to the floor (at least for me)

 

Rodger

 

Thanks Rodger,

 

I'll have to check pictures to see which vans were retro-fitted with electrical equipment (though I've only found two shots so far). 

 

Rocking W-irons? Not on my model. Both MJT units are soldered firmly to the floor pan. The only wagon I have which waddles and wobbles down the track is compensated. For OO, no compensation is needed in my experience - not on locos, not on bogies and not on four-wheeled wagons. 

[Focalplane]

I know compensated suspension can be a thorny issue but Tony's comment above - For OO, no compensation is needed in my experience - had me wondering which scales benefit the most from compensation?  Do the larger scales (O, 1 etc.) need, or benefit from, compensation more than the smaller scales?  Or is it simply a function of track condition for any scale?

[Mallard60022]

As mentioned earlier, Mick, no brake blocks and hangers are supplied with the kit. 

 

I cannot agree with you about using superglue to fix brass door furniture on to brass sides. If one is careful, and uses a minimum of solder, cleaning up is not a problem. If a seam/plank groove gets slightly contaminated, I just use a new scalpel blade and clean it out, without damage. 

 

As for fitting door handles with glue after painting, I also cannot agree. The risk of the glue contaminating the paint is too high for me. If the handles need to appear brass, I just carefully scrape of the paint with a curved scalpel. 

 

Though it's each to their own, and if gluing bits on works for you, then, please, carry on. However, I've lost count of the times glue has failed later on and bits just fall off. And, if ever a metal model needs to be stripped, life is made far more difficult if metal-to-metal bits are glued. 

I used to think that the glue on after painting method for coach handles was OK. However, I have inherited some otherwise really well built and beautifully finished coaches from Geoff Brewin's collection (estate) and many of them, having been handled quite a bit since removal from his layout, are losing and or missing the door handles and even some Commodes! 

However, micklner has a point about the damn solder run in the groove situation. That has happened to me many times when putting in hinges in the door groove on a coach kit. I usually try to scrape out the 'run' with a sharp tool. Could I avoid that 'running' by painting some of that solder screening substance (can't remember the name for the moment) on the outer face of the coach side, in the door groove? I always solder handles and Commodes from the inner side on Comet builds.

Thanks,

Phil 

[corneliuslundie]

Regarding compensation in OO and EM I agree with Tony for short wheelbase wagons. It is more useful with six wheel vehicles, effectively compensating for hamfistedness in assembly. I don't know about the larger scales, but I suspect that the dynamics are completely different. For 5 inch gauge (the book mentioned above), the author reckons that springing is essential. He recounts that he was told when he built his first wagon to use metal for the top and bottom springs and some kind of plastic between. The result was disaster as the springs were far too soft and as soon as the wagon was loaded the wheels hit the underside of the floor.. Another modeller built a wagon unsprung and it would not stay on the track. But in that scale of course we are talking about springing them the same way as the prototype.

P4 is another matter and I am completely unqualified to comment. However, they seem to be the main proponents of compensation and springing.

Jonathan

[cctransuk]

I used to think that the glue on after painting method for coach handles was OK. However, I have inherited some otherwise really well built and beautifully finished coaches from Geoff Brewin's collection (estate) and many of them, having been handled quite a bit since removal from his layout, are losing and or missing the door handles and even some Commodes! 

However, micklner has a point about the damn solder run in the groove situation. That has happened to me many times when putting in hinges in the door groove on a coach kit. I usually try to scrape out the 'run' with a sharp tool. Could I avoid that 'running' by painting some of that solder screening substance (can't remember the name for the moment) on the outer face of the coach side, in the door groove? I always solder handles and Commodes from the inner side on Comet builds.

Thanks,

Phil 

 

It has been recommended elsewhere that permanent marker ink is a good solder deterrent - and it can be removed with your favourite solvent.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

Just a rider......Permanent marker is bad news to paint because it bleeds though acrylic and cellulose primer as well as the top coat, and it might be difficult to get out of etched grooves. Biro ink is the same.

 

True, but I think that a wipe over with lighter fuel, followed by a rub with a fibreglass stick, followed by a blast in the ultrasonic cleaner should eliminate all risk.

 

..... and if this seems a little OTT, it is my (and many others') standard pre-painting routine.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[5050]

I know compensated suspension can be a thorny issue but Tony's comment above - For OO, no compensation is needed in my experience - had me wondering which scales benefit the most from compensation?  Do the larger scales (O, 1 etc.) need, or benefit from, compensation more than the smaller scales?  Or is it simply a function of track condition for any scale?

Probably a function of track standards rather than scale. ie - P4, S7 etc. compared to OO for example.  Scale is relatively immaterial from O downwards at least.

 

However, I have several RTR wagons in use in P4 which merely have the wheels swopped for P4 ones and they seem to run OK (for me at any rate!).  I wouldn't build a kit rigid though for P4 as I couldn't guarantee absolute accuracy in axle alignment.

[Michael Delamar]

Whilst not railway modelling and I dont want to take this thread too off topic. I thought some people here would be interested to see this short film from 1968. A proper model maker at work, from a time when you if you wanted to make something you would have to make every part.

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/grand-prix-miniatures/query/Jim+clark

 

 

Check out this mans outstanding work. He could charge over £1000 per model back in the 1960s. When you look through the photographs you will see why. He worked fast also.

 

http://www.henribaigent.com/contents_flyer/contents%20flyer.htm#top%20of%20contents

 

Just look at this!

http://www.henribaigent.com/Ferrari/ferrari.htm

Edited September 30, 2016 by Michael Delamar

[Andy Hayter]

I know compensated suspension can be a thorny issue but Tony's comment above - For OO, no compensation is needed in my experience - had me wondering which scales benefit the most from compensation?  Do the larger scales (O, 1 etc.) need, or benefit from, compensation more than the smaller scales?  Or is it simply a function of track condition for any scale?

 

I don't think it is related specifically to scale.

 

There are two (possibly three factors) that are important.

 

1.  The depth of the flange - so finescale flanges are more likely to need compensation.

2.  The ability to lay continuous track without humps and bumps

 

 and possibly 3.  The ability of a rigid chassis (or bit if chassis) to negotiate the track work.

 

Compensation is designed to ameliorate the deficiencies of the above. 

 

Starting with 2.

If we build flat baseboards and lay our track carefully with aligned and levelled joint between one section of track and the next, the ability to construct a track without humps and bumps is limited by our ability to see or feel a discontinuity in the track and our ability to construct a flat board.  This will be independent of scale or gauge - so as scale increases, the need for compensation decreases (assuming flanges increase with scale) - all other things being equal.  But of course they are not, and a gauge 1 modeller is likely to be modelling outdoors on a base that will move with temperatures and with humidity - and dare I say it the weight of the model.  Of course, as the size of our models increases, so we can ditch compensation and be more true to the prototype and use independent springing.  This achieves the same objective by a different route

 

Moving to 1.

 

Flange depth and track are really a combined function that hold a train on the track.  To think of them separately is a bit of a mistake. The two go hand in hand and the best laid track may well struggle with finescale flanges if we ask them to do things beyond the norm - cross a point with large flange-ways, or traverse a curve that is far tighter than the prototype.  The more we tend to finescale, flanges the more we are likely to need to think about compensation, because this is what holds the "flat" of the wheel down on the track - and more importantly, the flange safely within the track gauge..  If the wheel drifts up due a tight curve and the flange is fine, then the wheel can leave the track geometry.

 

3. Someone mentioned above 6 wheeled stock and these can present a real problem on model track (rather then track modelled absolutely to prototype). 

If you think of a 2 axle wagon negotiating a tight curve.  The two axles are parallel to one another, and  therefore neither is aligned to the radius of the curve,    A three axle vehicle is likely to exacerbate this situation - because mainly 3 axles were used on "lengthened" 2 axle vehicles.  So a 3 axle coach might be 7 or 8 compartment, compared with 5 for a 2 axle coach.   Now on a curve (usually unprototypically tight) the centre axle will be aligned with the centre of the radius and the two outer axles will be off line.  This will tend to make the wheels ride up the track.  If the flange is deep enough (and the play on the axle as well) the coach negotiates the curve.  If not then the flange will rise and run along the top of the rail and potentially derail the coach.  Compensation will (help) stop this.

 

The longer the wheelbase of such a vehicle the more likely you are to have a problem on any particular bit of track. 

 

I have to stress again, that track standards and wheel standards go hand in hand.  Compensation or full springing will help ameliorate deficiencies in this relationship. 

 

 

I agree with Tony with resect to my track and wheel standards in HO and OO that compensation is not needed - but that is with ruling curves of 3ft radius and RP or similar flanges or deeper.  The OH runs her HOe layout with around 6 inch minimum radius but typically pizza cutter type flanges. 

[jjb1970]

On the subject of glue/adhesives, if used correctly then they work well and are a perfectly sound means of joining things I think. They share something in common with soldering (and welding) in that surface preparation is crucial to a good, long lived bond. Get the surface prep right and use the glue properly and it is very effective. Particularly in industrial applications glue has been used in safety critical applications for a long time where people might not expect to find it being used.

[asmay2002]

I don't think it is related specifically to scale.  There are two (possibly three factors) that are important.

 

1.  The depth of the flange - so finescale flanges are more likely to need compensation.

2.  The ability to lay continuous track without humps and bumps

People tend to think of the prototype as flat but...   kumarl dips north of salmon gums on the kalgoorlie to esperance railway

[jrg1]

Whilst not railway modelling and I dont want to take this thread too off topic. I thought some people here would be interested to see this short film from 1968. A proper model maker at work, from a time when you if you wanted to make something you would have to make every part.

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/grand-prix-miniatures/query/Jim+clark

 

 

Check out this mans outstanding work. He could charge over £1000 per model back in the 1960s. When you look through the photographs you will see why. He worked fast also.

 

http://www.henribaigent.com/contents_flyer/contents%20flyer.htm#top%20of%20contents

 

Just look at this!

http://www.henribaigent.com/Ferrari/ferrari.htm

Back to fitting sprung buffers to the Airfix meat wagons-I feel deflated.

[billbedford]

1.  The depth of the flange - so finescale flanges are more likely to need compensation.

 

 

The flange rarely touches the rail, a and if it does it is almost certain to derail the vehicle.

[billbedford]

People tend to think of the prototype as flat but...   kumarl dips north of salmon gums on the kalgoorlie to esperance railway

 

Of course the prototype is not flat, but the changes in the top are small compared to the size of the wheels.

[billbedford]

Rocking W-irons? Not on my model. Both MJT units are soldered firmly to the floor pan. The only wagon I have which waddles and wobbles down the track is compensated. For OO, no compensation is needed in my experience - not on locos, not on bogies and not on four-wheeled wagons. 

 

When I was developing my sprung bogie frames. A beta tester fitted a pair to a Bachmann Mk1. He flipped coach with his fingers and it ran all the way around his layout, a distance of around 90 feet.

 

How many other people have stock with a similar performance?

Edited October 1, 2016 by billbedford

[St Enodoc]

When I was developing my sprung bo bogey frames. A beta tester fitted a pair to a Bachmann Mk1. He flipped coach with his fingers and it ran all the way around his layout, a distance of around 90 feet.

 

How many other people have stock with a similar performance?

I used to have some Trix coaches that would do that. Graphite-filled nylon bogies as I recall.

[Mallard60022]

I have decided that when I cut myself whilst using a scalpel in a casual or rather careless manner, I shall use super glue to mend the 'gap' rather than try to solder it.

Now I just need to work out what I would do if I accidentally knock the 'in service' Soldering Iron into my lap whilst not concentrating on my task. Could be using a Jeweller's Apron (leather) I suppose?

Good afternoon,

P.

[Fat Controller]

I have decided that when I cut myself whilst using a scalpel in a casual or rather careless manner, I shall use super glue to mend the 'gap' rather than try to solder it.

Now I just need to work out what I would do if I accidentally knock the 'in service' Soldering Iron into my lap whilst not concentrating on my task. Could be using a Jeweller's Apron (leather) I suppose?

$_35.jpg

Good afternoon,

P.

Don't get the sort that fasten on to your workbench- if the 'phone goes, it takes forever to pick everything off the floor.

[great central]

I have decided that when I cut myself whilst using a scalpel in a casual or rather careless manner, I shall use super glue to mend the 'gap' rather than try to solder it.

Now I just need to work out what I would do if I accidentally knock the 'in service' Soldering Iron into my lap whilst not concentrating on my task. Could be using a Jeweller's Apron (leather) I suppose?

$_35.jpg

Good afternoon,

P.

Fella I used to work with did that following watching his young son have a nasty cut 'glued' shut. Using ordinary super glue he found it wasn't the same and hurt like hell!!!

[Ian Smeeton]

No pain, no gain.

 

It does hurt, but it does save a trip to A & E

 

Regards

 

Ian

[asmay2002]

Of course the prototype is not flat, but the changes in the top are small compared to the size of the wheels.

You really missed the humour there Bill...

[Atso]

Fella I used to work with did that following watching his young son have a nasty cut 'glued' shut. Using ordinary super glue he found it wasn't the same and hurt like hell!!!

 

It does hurt like hell but it also did the job well enough and saved me having to spend a long evening sitting in A&E when I last had a misfortune with a scalpel. However, I'd like to point out that (a) I have no idea of the chemical makeup of superglue, (b) I was somewhat younger than I am now and © probably got very lucky not to poison myself and therefore would not recommend that somebody else try this.