Wright writes.....

[Atso]

Hello Tony,

 

Thank you for putting up with me on Saturday afternoon and taking the photographs of my 3D prints.

 

I received several lengths of FiNetrax flexible track kits and a B8 turnout kit for Christmas. This is a code 40 N gauge track system and I assembled the flexible track fairly quickly but procrastinated over the turnout for quite a while. However, I decided yesterday afternoon that it was never going to build itself so I sat down and put it together.

 

 

Regarding the recent discussion on photograph, please excuse my poorly lit and focused effort - I'm not going to win any photography contests anytime soon!

 

The turnout is a milled plastic base with separate injection moulded chairs and a cast nickel silver frog. The only moderately difficult bits were filling the blades and soldering the etched slide chairs to them. This was nowhere near as difficult as I thought it would be and even managed to cut the switch rails to the correct lengths first time! To my surprise the turnout actual works and represents the first hurdle overcome in my effort to model Hadley Wood in N gauge with finer track than Peco.

[Tony Wright]

I have a question, if I may? 

 

Has anyone noticed a difference in the 'qualities' possessed by the brush-painting enamels one acquires today and those of yore? 

 

Years ago, I used Humbrol to brush-apply to everything I painted, using artists' sables. To paraphrase a cliche, the tinlets did everything they claimed to do on the tin. Thus if a paint was matt, it dried matt, the railway colours (what a loss) dried satin and the various gloss colours and varnishes did just that, dried gloss. I don't know if anyone recalls, but the Humbrol paint used to be marketed as '1 hour', meaning, I assume, it dried in that time (though I never re-covered until at least 24 hours had passed). 

 

Right now, I'm building several carriages. Though Geoff Haynes will do the 'hard' bits, I thought I'd save time by brush-painting the ends and roofs. Humbrol 'coal black' (No.85, I think) used to be the black of my choice, drying to a beautiful, flat, satin finish. Not now! Despite lots of stirring, it dries streaky - actually, it doesn't seem to dry properly at all, remaining tacky for ages. Yesterday I painted four roofs, matt grey. After 24 hours, they're not dry, and they're streaky. Not long ago, I stripped the lot (which also took off the rainstrips and carriage destination board brackets!!!!!!!!!!!!!). 

 

What am I doing wrong? I have no wish to be critical of a product when the fault is mine. It's just that I'm doing nothing differently from what I've always done. 

 

As I've said many times, though I reckon most modellers, given perseverance and practice, can build locos/rolling stock/buildings/scenery, the high-quality painting of locos/stock is the province of very, very few. I'm not one of them! 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Tony Wright

[petrovich]

Good morning Peter,

 

You haven't offended me in the slightest (it's usually me who does the offending), so there is no need for any apology. 

 

As I've just mentioned above, photographs produced by a professional photographer (which I used to be) should be subjected to much greater scrutiny than those taken by an amateur, even an experienced one. 

 

I'd like a Nikon D5, but at £5,000 for the body, then there's no chance. I use my D3 and Df, both of which give excellent results with the 55mm Micro on the front. The Df gives a more natural colour balance in my view, quite muted compared with the D3, so that's the one I use for layout photography in the main. 

 

In a way, I miss my old-fashioned wet darkroom; in many ways because of its exclusivity. Anyone who owns a computer now has a digital darkroom accessible to them. As far as I know, I was the only one in my street (in Wolverhampton) who had a darkroom, probably the only one in the district. Printing 6 x 9 (cm) negatives, and even some 5 x 4 (inches) ones was most satisfying, if Stygian and stinky. One had to get everything right, there being no 'undo' button. The Mamiya and Pentax lenses I used on the medium-format camers I employed (now worthless!) gave razor-sharp rendition on the film (Ilford for B&W), complemented by the Leitz and Rodenstock lenses on the enlargers used for printing. I gave the lot away to Stamford College, nine years ago. 

 

With regard to digital photography, I'm really ignorant of what can be achieved. I use only a fraction of the tools available in the programme, and any post picture-taking processing is restricted to a bit of sharpening, use of layers and clarification. Then, if necessary I take the backgrounds out. Thus, my approach to photography is a bit old-fashioned. It consists of getting the composure right, the depth of field right, the exposure right and the colour balance right, when I take the picture (though I still bracket, though nowhere near as much as when I used colour transparency film). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

 

Paterson and chemicals were my go too, heaven knows what it did to our internal breathing apparatus.

 

Regards

 

 

Peter 

[cctransuk]

I have a question, if I may? 

 

Has anyone noticed a difference in the 'qualities' possessed by the brush-painting enamels one acquires today and those of yore? 

 

Years ago, I used Humbrol to brush-apply to everything I painted, using artists' sables. To paraphrase a cliche, the tinlets did everything they claimed to do on the tin. Thus if a paint was matt, it dried matt, the railway colours (what a loss) dried satin and the various gloss colours and varnishes did just that, dried gloss. I don't know if anyone recalls, but the Humbrol paint used to be marketed as '1 hour', meaning, I assume, it dried in that time (though I never re-covered until at least 24 hours had passed). 

 

Right now, I'm building several carriages. Though Geoff Haynes will do the 'hard' bits, I thought I'd save time by brush-painting the ends and roofs. Humbrol 'coal black' (No.85, I think) used to be the black of my choice, drying to a beautiful, flat, satin finish. Not now! Despite lots of stirring, it dries streaky - actually, it doesn't seem to dry properly at all, remaining tacky for ages. Yesterday I painted four roofs, matt grey. After 24 hours, they're not dry, and they're streaky. Not long ago, I stripped the lot (which also took off the rainstrips and carriage destination board brackets!!!!!!!!!!!!!). 

 

What am I doing wrong? I have no wish to be critical of a product when the fault is mine. It's just that I'm doing nothing differently from what I've always done. 

 

As I've said many times, though I reckon most modellers, given perseverance and practice, can build locos/rolling stock/buildings/scenery, the high-quality painting of locos/stock is the province of very, very few. I'm not one of them! 

 

You're only doing one thing wrong, Tony - using Humbrol paints !! I'm afraid that they nowadays have a terrible reputation for inconsistency and poor quality.

 

I use Halfords rattle cans where practicable, and Phoenix Precision paint via brush or airbrush where necessary.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Lecorbusier]

I have a question, if I may? 

 

Has anyone noticed a difference in the 'qualities' possessed by the brush-painting enamels one acquires today and those of yore? 

 

Years ago, I used Humbrol to brush-apply to everything I painted, using artists' sables. To paraphrase a cliche, the tinlets did everything they claimed to do on the tin. Thus if a paint was matt, it dried matt, the railway colours (what a loss) dried satin and the various gloss colours and varnishes did just that, dried gloss. I don't know if anyone recalls, but the Humbrol paint used to be marketed as '1 hour', meaning, I assume, it dried in that time (though I never re-covered until at least 24 hours had passed). 

 

Right now, I'm building several carriages. Though Geoff Haynes will do the 'hard' bits, I thought I'd save time by brush-painting the ends and roofs. Humbrol 'coal black' (No.85, I think) used to be the black of my choice, drying to a beautiful, flat, satin finish. Not now! Despite lots of stirring, it dries streaky - actually, it doesn't seem to dry properly at all, remaining tacky for ages. Yesterday I painted four roofs, matt grey. After 24 hours, they're not dry, and they're streaky. Not long ago, I stripped the lot (which also took off the rainstrips and carriage destination board brackets!!!!!!!!!!!!!). 

 

What am I doing wrong? I have no wish to be critical of a product when the fault is mine. It's just that I'm doing nothing differently from what I've always done. 

 

As I've said many times, though I reckon most modellers, given perseverance and practice, can build locos/rolling stock/buildings/scenery, the high-quality painting of locos/stock is the province of very, very few. I'm not one of them! 

That is interesting Tony,

 

I have found with Humbrol that unless I mix exhaustively the relative gloss/satin/matt is pretty hit and miss. However, with exhaustive mixing I they have been ok ...ish.

 

I have also had some issues with drying .... but this seemed to have something to do with not allowing sufficient time for the primer coat to dry properly.

 

I would be interested to here other peoples experiences.

[gr.king]

I'm still using Humbrol but with far less satisfaction than was once the case. The coal black, the matt white and the gloss white in particular seem far too thick in the tin in recent purchases and as Tony says the coal black won't dry for days if applied straight from the tin. They do work obligingly if let down a little with white spirit, but the thinning, if over-done, kills the covering power of the paint, despite the overload of pigment or other solid matter that seems to be in the stuff. Finding the critical degree of thinning is not easy. Perhaps I now need a miniature viscosity cup? That would however waste a lot of paint if the amount I need for use is tiny. Yes, thorough stirring is vital now.

 

I've even had to thin the gloss white to get it show any willingness at all to flow out of a bow pen. Our illustrious aviator colleague in Hong Kong reports that he has had to do the same. This is normally something that is definitely not to be done as the slightest over-thinning destroys any hope of drawing a narrow line - the paint floods out of the pen and spreads on the model!

 

Precision paints suffer from poorer covering power when brushed than Humbrol in my experience, and there's no local availability plus those ridiculous modern restrictions on postage. Good for spraying though.

 

Railmatch brushed-on covering power I've found to be even poorer in some cases, but at least I can get some of the Railmatch range from stock at Caistor Loco. Again good for spraying.

 

I've also used Halfords' rattle cans ("super-acrylics"?) a lot with general satisfaction but they are not reliable for specific colour matches. Blacks, whites, grey primer, red primer have all been useful though. I'm worried to hear a recent report of possibly another change to Halfords' formulation such that these paints won't cure sufficiently to withstand over-coating unless given many days. Can anybody confirm?

 

I'm not even interested in hearing about other acrylics until somebody can tell me truthfully that they behave during application in every respect like the highest quality enamels and do not require any changes of technique with brush or sprayer, do not demand new equipment, that they dry to a proper smooth finish with good full even covering power, and that a genuine full gloss finish is possible when required. Gloop in the pot that smears out grudgingly on the model was a fair description of some acrylic satin "varnish" that I used about two years ago.....

Edited January 17, 2018 by gr.king

[Barry Ten]

Humbrol matt black is particularly troublesome now, to the point where I won't risk using it. As noted, it goes on poorly and often won't dry, even after several days, and then reacts very badly to any attempt at applying a second layer. I've only just salvaged a couple of models after running into these problems. I also had a reasonably new tin of brown which I opened for the second time a few days ago and found that it had turned to a very strange yoghurt-like consistency, which I've never encountered with paint before. My local newsagent stocks Revell paints so I use them generally and find occasionally problematic but generally a bit safer than Humbrol.

 

Like many of us, I'm sure, I also have a small number of much older tinlets which still get to be used sparingly, and are as good as when they were bought.

 

Al

[grob1234]

Hello Graeme, Tony,

 

I'm just catching up on this thread and others. I have been committing aviation at a furious rate in recent weeks - three return trips from HK to Paris, a return trip to Rome and a day return to Singapore, which doesn't sound like much but I can assure you is pretty tiring!

 

On the subject of Humbrol white enamel being pretty rubbish - yes I can confirm the fact it is waaaay to thick straight from the tin for lining. Black is better, but still needs thinning. I'm a bit of a tart when it comes to things like this but I use Tamiya thinner which is formulated specifically for enamel paints as oppose to white spirit. I don't know if there is a real difference (other than cost) between the two, but it's what I use and so far with the minimal amount of lining I have done it has been OK. Having said that I am literally adding 1 drop of thinner at a time into the paint.

 

Random thought - I have always used Tamiya acrylics (though they clean with cellulose thinner and thin with Tamiya thinner), and continue to do so. I get on with them really well, and they spray beautifully. This is a hangover from my aircraft modelling days. The pigment is always very fine, demonstrated by how well they flow though a 0.2mm airbrush needle with no clogging at all. The big thought of mine is to try Tamiya ENAMEL paint for lining. I have a pot of gloss white, and I just looked - the consistency is more like the creamy consistency Mr Rathbone recommends. I will give it a try and see how I get on I will of course report back with my findings.

 

On a completely unrelated subject - would 55mph be a reasonable top speed for a D2? I'm just working out what gearbox to buy for my kits. TIA.

 

EDIT: Steve, I really like the look of those fine scale N Gauge points. I looked at that range and was really impressed.

Edited January 17, 2018 by grob1234

[Barry Ten]

 

 

Random thought - I have always used Tamiya acrylics (though they clean with cellulose thinner and thin with Tamiya thinner), and continue to do so. I get on with them really well, and they spray beautifully. This is a hangover from my aircraft modelling days. The pigment is always very fine, demonstrated by how well they flow though a 0.2mm airbrush needle with no clogging at all. 

 

I tried Tamiya acrylics on this Mosquito. The big shock for me was that they can't be brush painted at all (at least, I couldn't get on with them) but they airbrushed beautifully through my Aztec:

 

 

Just a small aviation interlude for those so inclined.

 

Al

[Penlan]

Re. Humbrol, I felt the paint wasn't the same as long ago,

but application problems I've put down to my own declining abilities.

Perhaps things (for me) are not so bad after all.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Penlan

[grob1234]

I tried Tamiya acrylics on this Mosquito. The big shock for me was that they can't be brush painted at all (at least, I couldn't get on with them) but they airbrushed beautifully through my Aztec:

 

 

Just a small aviation interlude for those so inclined.

 

Al

Lovely Mozzie, Al.

 

Tamiya Acrylics are renown for being awful to use with a brush. However add air to the brush and hey presto - results like you demonstrate.

[gr.king]

Going by somebody's personal reminiscences published in "Forward" within the last couple of years 55mph top speed in a D2 sounds about right - allegedly with the sound of wheels grinding against the frames and enough vibration to rattle the crew's teeth out!

Edited January 17, 2018 by gr.king

[grob1234]

Going by somebody's personal reminiscences published in "Forward" within the last couple of years 55mph top speed in a D2 sounds about right - allegedly with the sound of wheels grinding against the frames and enough vibration to rattle the crew's teeth out!

My model will be exceptionally prototypical then!!!

[Bucoops]

Going by somebody's personal reminiscences published in "Forward" within the last couple of years 55mph top speed in a D2 sounds about right - allegedly with the sound of wheels grinding against the frames and enough vibration to rattle the crew's teeth out!

 

If it ain't screamin' you ain't tryin'

[Atso]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is struggling with Humbrol enamel paints at the moment! When I sprayed 'The Middleton' in Humbrol gloss black, the paint stayed slightly tacky for weeks afterwards and it was very easy to rub it off of areas such as the cab steps. Once it completely dried, I used Tamiya gloss black acrylic to patch paint the affected areas (I agree with Tom's comments about brush painting large areas using this paint though) and haven't had any problems since. More recently I've really struggled using 22 gloss white with my bow pen and have ended up using ivory which is only slightly better. I've found this interesting as the various Humbrol greys and dark reds I've also been using haven't exhibited any of these problems used in the bow pen. Brush painting has been rather hit and miss as well.

 

For spraying, I'm another convert to using Tamiya paints wherever possible. If I could find a good match for Doncaster and Darlington Apple Green (I'm not a fan of the railmatch acrylic interpretations), then I would use acrylic paints exclusively for airbrush work. My only comment is that the finish isn't quite as durable as enamels but, as I've not experienced any problems painting enamels over acrylics (following at least 48 hours between coats), I'm going to have a go and spraying models with Ronseal polyurethane varnish (the spirit based version as per Ian Rathbones recommendation) to give a little more resillience to the surface before attacking my next model with a bow pen!

 

 

Steve, I really like the look of those fine scale N Gauge points. I looked at that range and was really impressed.

 

Thanks Tom. I'm really pleased with how my first attempt at building a turnout went and I'm looking forward to the next one. However, I can see how building out of copperclad could be quicker - threading all those chairs (over 90 of them) of three different types is time consuming and requires concentration throughout! That said, a copperclad turnout won't have all that lovely detail (chairs) so any attempts at building using that material (if I ever do) will be confined to custom designs in the fiddle yard. A left hand crossover turnout set is next on the list of items to be purchased from FiNetrax though!

[polybear]

You're only doing one thing wrong, Tony - using Humbrol paints !! I'm afraid that they nowadays have a terrible reputation for inconsistency and poor quality.

 

 

I believe "junk" is the correct technical term, if the numerous threads and problems on RMWeb which mention Humbrol are anything to go by.

 

I blame the EEC sticking their noses in.  Household paints have gone the same way, with gloss paint drying so quick the brush sticks to the door.  And the finished job lasts all of five minutes cos' it chips so easily.  It might be safer, with less nasty chemicals - the only trouble is that four times as much gets used cos' it doesn't last.

 

I've a simple rule - if you can drink it without it killing you then it's no good......

[StephenB]

One could say ‘fings ain’t what they used to be’.

 

Stephen

[Anglian]

As others have written Humbrol enamel is hit and miss in terms of quality. I don't use many of their colours but I tend to buy a tin or two if I happen to be somewhere that I don't usually visit. My idea being that in amongst all of those I buy I'll fine a good one. I actually like the over thick white. I thin it with Humbrol's dedicated enamel thinners and it goes on well and dries quite quickly.

 

The other thing you can try is to let the paint separate in the tin, then pour of the clear carrier liquid that sits over the thick coloured pigment. Then thin the pigment with the Humbrol enamel thinners. This might improve the drying qualities.

 

I've been told that Humbrol enamel was reformulated for spraying rather than brush painting. If this is true it may be that the brushed enamel coat is too thick for it to be able to dry.

 

At Stevenage I spent quite a while talking to the lady lining O gauge coaches (Liz?). I the enamel she was using came in tins that had yellow labels  – are they Railmatch – I'm not sure? She thinned the paint with lighter fluid as it evaporates faster so the enamel was drying enough to work over in just an hour.

 

I bought my first Humbrols in 1975 and they were a minimum of 6 hours before a second coat.

 

Some of the problem with paint can actually be with the underlying primer. If paint is coming away to leave a bare metal surface then then primer hasn't actually primed the surface ready for paint, instead it's the equivalent of an undercoat. You need to use etch primer on degreased metal to stand a chance of getting a good surface for the top coats. Recently I've seen a beautiful kit built model however, it was rather compromised by a chip in a very noticeable place that was through to the brass. Shame that but it was down to the primer not bonding to the brass.

 

Brass is a naturally greasy metal so it must be degreased properly before applying paint. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Anglian

[Shed Driver]

Yellow Labels are Phoenix Precision Paints.

 

Norman

[Jol Wilkinson]

Many years ago, when Humbrol paints were produced in Hull they used to grind their own pigments. I ran a model shop for a brief period in the early 1980's and always found them to be excellent. Some time later I believe production was moved away, possibly to China, when ownership of the brand changed hands.

 

It is quite probable that Humbrol, Revel and Raillmatch are all produced in a paint mixing system where the "ingredients" are bought in. That is certainly what PPP do. So the quality of the paint relies on those mixing the batches (which should be consistent) and the quality of the materials. Is it that which is causing problems, especially if they are sourcing cheaper materials to keep prices down/improve profits.

[micklner]

I'm still using Humbrol but with far less satisfaction than was once the case. The coal black, the matt white and the gloss white in particular seem far too thick in the tin in recent purchases and as Tony says the coal black won't dry for days if applied straight from the tin. They do work obligingly if let down a little with white spirit, but the thinning, if over-done, kills the covering power of the paint, despite the overload of pigment or other solid matter that seems to be in the stuff. Finding the critical degree of thinning is not easy. Perhaps I now need a miniature viscosity cup? That would however waste a lot of paint if the amount I need for use is tiny. Yes, thorough stirring is vital now.

 

I've even had to thin the gloss white to get it show any willingness at all to flow out of a bow pen. Our illustrious aviator colleague in Hong Kong reports that he has had to do the same. This is normally something that is definitely not to be done as the slightest over-thinning destroys any hope of drawing a narrow line - the paint floods out of the pen and spreads on the model!

 

Precision paints suffer from poorer covering power when brushed than Humbrol in my experience, and there's no local availability plus those ridiculous modern restrictions on postage. Good for spraying though.

 

Railmatch brushed-on covering power I've found to be even poorer in some cases, but at least I can get some of the Railmatch range from stock at Caistor Loco. Again good for spraying.

 

I've also used Halfords' rattle cans ("super-acrylics"?) a lot with general satisfaction but they are not reliable for specific colour matches. Blacks, whites, grey primer, red primer have all been useful though. I'm worried to hear a recent report of possibly another change to Halfords' formulation such that these paints won't cure sufficiently to withstand over-coating unless given many days. Can anybody confirm?

 

I'm not even interested in hearing about other acrylics until somebody can tell me truthfully that they behave during application in every respect like the highest quality enamels and do not require any changes of technique with brush or sprayer, do not demand new equipment, that they dry to a proper smooth finish with good full even covering power, and that a genuine full gloss finish is possible when required. Gloop in the pot that smears out grudgingly on the model was a fair description of some acrylic satin "varnish" that I used about two years ago.....

 

Bought a number of Halford aerosols recently without any problems.

 

Humbrol gets a good bashing, however I have used two tins of Satin Black recently without any problems . Perhaps use that instead of Coal Black ? Never been fan of the white paint.

[gr.king]

We may be at cross-purposes here. For clarity, I used Satin 85 Humbrol black. Is that coal black, or is coal black another variation?

[gr.king]

 

 

I blame the EEC sticking their noses in. 

 

Precisely. The combination of an organisation so large that it cannot consult all of the small people who rely heavily on existing products or traditional arrangements (or doesn't want the nuisance of having to consult), and positions of power and influence occupied by those raised to believe in "a regulation for everything" is a recipe for the annihilation of variety and freedom. There's only one way to avoid that.

[Tony Wright]

We may be at cross-purposes here. For clarity, I used Satin 85 Humbrol black. Is that coal black, or is coal black another variation?

Graeme,

 

The Humbrol satin black No.85 used to be called coal black. As the coal black, it was my standard black. However, having bought a couple of tinlets of No.85 in recent times, it won't dry and even if it did, it's streaky. I use it now only for scenic work. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

Graeme,

 

The satin Humbrol satin black No.85 used to be called coal black. As the coal black, it was my standard black. However, having bought a couple of tinlets of No.85 in recent times, it won't dry and even if it did, it's streaky. I use it now only for scenic work. 

 

Oil slicks?