Wright writes.....

[Lecorbusier]

There's two types of Kaufmann clamps - the normal one can't accept heat so is no good for soldering.

Having contacted Branchlines I am informed there is a choice of 2 clamps for soldering applications. The 'combo' (2.75" long jaw, opening 3/8") The 'mini combo' (1" long jaw, opening 5/16")

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on which might be better for  4mm locos/coaches/trucks ?

 

Tim

[Michael Edge]

Morning all from a sunny Bournemouth where Beth and I are relaxing half way through our move to France.   All the talk about the locos for the M & G N, has made me think more about the viaduct.   After 5 days without any work on it , due to other commitments, I have had chance to relax and do some more drawing.  Things are coming along and I'm currently working on the diagonal girders.   From careful study of photos and the drawings it turns out that each set are different in one way or another.   I think that I've now finally cracked the first set and have got the base drawing done for them and now have worked out how they should be built.   It is coming along and hopefully will translate into 3D and be buildable.

 

I have enjoyed the pictures of the absorbed locos in LNER livery.   I have plans for something similar on Green Ayre.   I have a spare etch for a Midland and North British Clerestory that was part of the Midland Scottish joint stock.  Several of these ended up with the LNER and I believe got painted in varnished teak livery.  It seems like a nice idea though how it would have appeared at Green Ayre I don't know.

 

Jamie

 

PS I couldn't agree more about accuracy when modelling a well known prototype.   As far as I know the only facing points on the S & C were are Settle Junction, Garsdale and Appleby.  The Midland made a lot of use of double slips to provide trap points on the exit of goods yards.

 

No facing points at Garsdale even though it was a junction but there were some at Blea Moor for each loop.

[Clem]

Clem, that rake looks good. I may have convinced one of the etching/3DCAD team in the Leeds MRS to produce a set of etched for the LMS Iron Ore wagons as we need some for Chapel-en-le-Frith.

 

If he does do them I will let you know as it would be quicker than scratch building all of the rivets!

 

and I remember the tail lamp on the tail of the compensated rodent on High Dyke

 

Baz

 

Hi Baz, I would be very interested and most grateful for access to etched brass kits of them. They were pretty common and whilst I could scratch build a few, it does take considerably longer. Thank you so much for letting me know. I'm looking forward to hearing from you when/if there are developments. I too recall a rolling rat... or was that roland rat...

 

Cheers, Clem

 

I believe that there is a beer museum at Burton on Trent that might have some information, possibly in a publicity leaflet.

 

Jamie

 

 Hi Jamie, that's a great thought. I shall look into that. Thanks for the idea. 

 

Cheers, Clem

[Clive Mortimore]

No facing points at Garsdale even though it was a junction but there were some at Blea Moor for each loop.

Hi Mike

 

I checked in Anderson and Fox book "Stations and Structures of the Settle and Carlisle" before posting my reply.  Levers 7, 8 28 and 31.

[LNER4479]

No facing points at Garsdale even though it was a junction but there were some at Blea Moor for each loop.

...and even they were only installed during the war. They were a contributory factor in the spectacular derailment of the southbound Thames-Clyde express there in the early 1950s, a rather prophetic way of illustrating the Midland Railway's near paranoia about such things!

[LNER4479]

These are some of the Appleby hoppers Graeme made for Grantham:

 

 

 

...and as a complete rake:

 

[Headstock]

Thanks for that. What an interesting photo and one that shows tremendous detail. I think that the ones possibly used on the Burton trains were a bit smaller that the 6 wheel Guinness ones but detailed shots like this are priceless.

 

Perhaps this LMS road rail and the BR/Bass demountable tanks may be more appropriate for the Burton line?

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbeer

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdemountable

[Headstock]

...and as a complete rake:

 

IMG_6884b.jpg

 

I was aware of the Iron ore train on Grantham, a beautiful bit of modeling and a testiment to the amount of effort required to produce an authentic train. However, I was thinking of the more typical hotchpotch collection of hoppers associated with iron ore trains before the advent of the dull as dishwater BR tipplers.

 

Something like this.

[Headstock]

Clem, that rake looks good. I may have convinced one of the etching/3DCAD team in the Leeds MRS to produce a set of etched for the LMS Iron Ore wagons as we need some for Chapel-en-le-Frith.

 

If he does do them I will let you know as it would be quicker than scratch building all of the rivets!

 

and I remember the tail lamp on the tail of the compensated rodent on High Dyke

 

Baz

 

Evening Baz,

 

I would also be interested in the LMS hoppers if they were to be produced.

[Chamby]

Perhaps this LMS road rail and the BR/Bass demountable tanks may be more appropriate for the Burton line?

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbeer

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdemountable

 

I like the one with the beer wagon coupled up to a DMU.  Now that would be a rail tour!

 

Phil

[Theakerr]

My memory of iron ore trains going through Waltham on route to Scunthorpe is that they were all thel 'Bachmann' type iron ore wagons filled with 'lump' Northampton un-refined ore.  They were hauled by various 04 and 02 type locos but strangely never a WD.  They were on the London coal trains.  Further the full iron ore trains were always shorter than the coal trains.  At the time (and today) I assumed it was because of the iron ore mass.   

[LNER4479]

I was aware of the Iron ore train on Grantham, a beautiful bit of modeling and a testiment to the amount of effort required to produce an authentic train. However, I was thinking of the more typical hotchpotch collection of hoppers associated with iron ore trains before the advent of the dull as dishwater BR tipplers.

Indeed.

 

Our research showed that, pre-war, the rakes were very uniform, with dedicated services to Appleby-Frodingham (Scunthorpe), Stanton (Staveley) and Parkgate (Rotherham). Graeme's masterpiece is based on a striking photo of a rake of the Appleby-Frodingham empties at Saltersford heading towards High Dyke with, of all things, a D2 4-4-0 in charge. There is also a photo in the Cawston book of an O4 heading through Grantham with an equally uniform rake of Stanton hoppers (different design).

 

It appears that, with the dramatic upturn in traffic in the build up to the war, every available wagon was pressed into service (pictures at the quarry at that time show even NE 20T wooden hoppers in use). Thus began the era of the 'rag bag' rakes, as you illustrate - very much therefore a wartime-into-early BR era thing.

 

Although a little grainy, there are some similar images on Dave F's wonderful thread featuring his father's pictures which is so kindly available to all:

[Headstock]

A few more with a wider geographical spread.

 

I take my hat off to anybody who has atempted to model these trains, Clem has really captured them down to a tee. Perhaps his rake is only one of four ever built.

[jimwal]

Clem, that rake looks good. I may have convinced one of the etching/3DCAD team in the Leeds MRS to produce a set of etched for the LMS Iron Ore wagons as we need some for Chapel-en-le-Frith.

 

If he does do them I will let you know as it would be quicker than scratch building all of the rivets!

 

and I remember the tail lamp on the tail of the compensated rodent on High Dyke

 

Baz

Hi Baz,

 

You may have started something you may regret! Seriously, I would be interested in a few LMS ore hoppers as I know a friend will be. They seemed to have lasted well with some I believe at preserved railways.

[Clem]

Perhaps this LMS road rail and the BR/Bass demountable tanks may be more appropriate for the Burton line?

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsbeer

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brdemountable

 

Thank you for those links, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with those examples. I'm certain that some of those vehicles included in the Burton-York. I can't see any possibility other than scratch building them. But it'll be one for the future as my present list of railway tasks centre around progressing the layout. Having said that, I'll have to break off from time to time to do something else, if only for the change.  Thanks also for posting the photos of iron ore trains. They do indeed show the distinctive look of these trains. That in a way illustrates also what is lost to RTR-only modellers as no-one makes a single accurate iron ore hopper.  

 

 

Indeed.

 

Our research showed that, pre-war, the rakes were very uniform, with dedicated services to Appleby-Frodingham (Scunthorpe), Stanton (Staveley) and Parkgate (Rotherham). Graeme's masterpiece is based on a striking photo of a rake of the Appleby-Frodingham empties at Saltersford heading towards High Dyke with, of all things, a D2 4-4-0 in charge. There is also a photo in the Cawston book of an O4 heading through Grantham with an equally uniform rake of Stanton hoppers (different design).

 

It appears that, with the dramatic upturn in traffic in the build up to the war, every available wagon was pressed into service (pictures at the quarry at that time show even NE 20T wooden hoppers in use). Thus began the era of the 'rag bag' rakes, as you illustrate - very much therefore a wartime-into-early BR era thing.

 

Although a little grainy, there are some similar images on Dave F's wonderful thread featuring his father's pictures which is so kindly available to all:

Thanks for posting the photos and sharing your knowledge of how the ore train consists changed from pre-war onwards. I guessed that was the case having seen 'Grantham' along with Graeme's Appleby-Frodingham rake. The second photo pulled by the O4/3 is interesting. The 2nd and 3rd wagons illustrate the two main versions of the ex-LMS hoppers - the 7'9" high and the 8'6" high. The presence of these ex-LMS hoppers along side the Charles Roberts type always seemed to emphasise the ram-shackle nature of these trains. 

 

 

My memory of iron ore trains going through Waltham on route to Scunthorpe is that they were all thel 'Bachmann' type iron ore wagons filled with 'lump' Northampton un-refined ore.  They were hauled by various 04 and 02 type locos but strangely never a WD.  They were on the London coal trains.  Further the full iron ore trains were always shorter than the coal trains.  At the time (and today) I assumed it was because of the iron ore mass.    

Similarly, in the 1950s, the iron ore trains to Stanton were nearly always an O4 but very occasionally something smaller like a J39 or K2. I can never remember a WD on them. But later on,from about 1963 the WDs did suddenly appear on them also.

 

 

Cheers, Clem

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Baz,

 

You may have started something you may regret! Seriously, I would be interested in a few LMS ore hoppers as I know a friend will be. They seemed to have lasted well with some I believe at preserved railways.

Hi Jim

 

Dosen't John have a real one at Mangapps?

[Clem]

For those interested, here's a photo by Tom Boustead of an O4/1  (63585) passing Gedling Colliery Junction as late as 1959 with a rake of various iron ore hoppers....

[jimwal]

Hi Jim

 

Dosen't John have a real one at Mangapps?

Hi Clive,

 

There were two, one had been altered with extended sides and was in a poor state. Parts were recovered and the rest cut up.

 

The second one was in reasonable order but saw little use as it wasn't a typical East Anglian branch line goods wagon so it got moved on.

 

See you at GCR tomorrow. Will we see Mike F on Tonbridge west yard?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive,

 

There were two, one had been altered with extended sides and was in a poor state. Parts were recovered and the rest cut up.

 

The second one was in reasonable order but saw little use as it wasn't a typical East Anglian branch line goods wagon so it got moved on.

 

See you at GCR tomorrow. Will we see Mike F on Tonbridge west yard?

Hi Jim

 

He will be there so I am informed.

[Tony Wright]

 

A glimpse of the iron ore train modelled by Geoff Kent on his latest creation in EM.

 

 

And Graeme King's rake for Grantham.

 

Both, beautifully-observed and modelled. 

[Michael Edge]

No facing points at Garsdale even though it was a junction but there were some at Blea Moor for each loop.

 

I think we were discussing the S&C running lines.

[Hollar]

Having contacted Branchlines I am informed there is a choice of 2 clamps for soldering applications. The 'combo' (2.75" long jaw, opening 3/8") The 'mini combo' (1" long jaw, opening 5/16")

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on which might be better for  4mm locos/coaches/trucks ?

 

Tim

Coffman Clamps pictures.jpgCoffman price list .jpg

I've had a couple of these for a very long time and they have been a great help for brass and white metal soldering. If you're quick, it seems the neoprene padding stands up pretty well.  Not had to replace them yet, though it looks easy  enough to do if I ever need to.

 

Tone

[grahame]

Several pages back (post 25271) I posted up a pic of a building model I was scratch-building (in N/2mm scale) and the actual prototype it was based on. If anyone is interested (presuming they don't frequent my building construction thread) here's a pic of progress to date. The snag is now that the World Cup has started modelling is grinding to a halt and with four games today, and three or four every day for quite a while, I doubt I'll get much more done until it's all over. But it's handy non-strenuous relaxation as I recover from surgery. 

 

 

Apologies for interrupting the ore hoppers discussion.

 

G.

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

For those interested, here's a photo by Tom Boustead of an O4/1  (63585) passing Gedling Colliery Junction as late as 1959 with a rake of various iron ore hoppers....

 

...... and a couple of STANTON limestone hoppers near the middle of the rake.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[LNER4479]

Thank you for those links, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with those examples. I'm certain that some of those vehicles included in the Burton-York. I can't see any possibility other than scratch building them. But it'll be one for the future as my present list of railway tasks centre around progressing the layout. Having said that, I'll have to break off from time to time to do something else, if only for the change.  Thanks also for posting the photos of iron ore trains. They do indeed show the distinctive look of these trains. That in a way illustrates also what is lost to RTR-only modellers as no-one makes a single accurate iron ore hopper.  

 

 

Thanks for posting the photos and sharing your knowledge of how the ore train consists changed from pre-war onwards. I guessed that was the case having seen 'Grantham' along with Graeme's Appleby-Frodingham rake. The second photo pulled by the O4/3 is interesting. The 2nd and 3rd wagons illustrate the two main versions of the ex-LMS hoppers - the 7'9" high and the 8'6" high. The presence of these ex-LMS hoppers along side the Charles Roberts type always seemed to emphasise the ram-shackle nature of these trains. 

 

I think another aspect here is that, pre-war, these wagons - or at least the ones we were interested in on Grantham - were private owner and hence run in dedicated rakes for the steel works concerned (others please feel free to correct me here). In a similar manner to the better known coal private owner wagons, everything was requisitioned to help the war effort and never went back to PO after the war, becoming a common pool, hence the post-war ram-shackle nature . If you look closely at some of these 1950's pictures, you can see one or two of the Appleby-Frodingham 'peak ended' wagons (as Graeme refers to them) also dotted around in the trains, eg wagons 3 and 4 in Clem's picture from last night.

Edited June 16, 2018 by LNER4479